Do you care if Bradley Manning is kept in isolation?

The guy leaked classified info. He's lucky he's still breathing.

If so... don't think it's allowed here.

If it's simply an observation, we're all lucky we're still breathing.


Yes, I care if he's kept in isolation. Do you?

And when Manning leaked it, the same reasons exist.

Having said that, I'm pretty much anti-death penalty and do not wish to see Manning OR Cheney executed. But treason is punishable by death, is it not?

He is lucky he is still alive. Thats not a threat. Just a factual observation.

...when did this trial actually take place?

I seem to be missing a lot of things lately; but that, I think I would have remembered.

>>.And when Manning leaked it, the same reasons exist.>>>>

>>>>>But I'm all for a trial in both cases.>>>>


So there HASN'T BEEN a trial yet ! I'm so relieved.

So no evidence has been produced ( yet, anyway) that he leaked anything. Yet you're already convinced he has, #1....and have already dragged "treason" into it to boot.

Think about it: perhaps you're being a little quick with your judgments.


>>>>>>I seem to be missing a lot of things lately; but that, I think I would have remembered.>>>>>>>

>>.And when Manning leaked it, the same reasons exist.>>>>

He likely faces a court marshall trial this spring, per his own lawyers. His pre-trial is going to be any day now, as his lawyers said it would be after New Years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/30/wikileaks-cables-bradley-manning?intcmp=239

There is nothing unusual whatsoever about this situation. He has been formally CHARGED with violating UCMJ articles. The military is holding him prisoner until the trial happens. His trial is coming soon, again, per his own lawyers.

Manning isn't charged with treason and never will be. people here like to through treason around, there are specific requirements for treason.

Has Manning been put on trial and was he found guilty?

What happened to the right to a speedy trial? Doesn't exist anymore I suppose.

Also, because of his military status, he is subject to UCMJ. He is not a civilian.

before trial

Manning has been charged.....guilty may or may not come until after the trial. The speedy trial issue NEVER, EVER indicates a specific time frame, because it is NORMAL to hold a person accused with a crime based on sufficient evidence to hold a person in prison pending trial (while the prosecution and the DEFENSCE prepare their cases). If Manning felt he was being held in violation of the speedy trial issue, he could bring that to his lawyers who could press the issue to the judge. But the fact of the matter is that the defense attorney also needs the time to put a case together.. Duh!

Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

is even seen on a site for Democrats.

One never knows when the storm troopers are coming. Be afraid . Be very afraid. I'll remember Smarmie Doofus and never click onto your foolishness again. Don't know how you slipped by the moderators.

:shrug:

information. He's a fucking traitor.

He didn't provide support to an enemy. He didn't do anything that will cause harm to the US. He transferred classified materials to an unauthorized party, that is all. He will not even be charged or tried for treason or as a traitor.

It's classified for a reason.

What harm has been caused? Biden even said there was no harm done.

So, bullshit to your bullshit.

"No harm no foul" is irrelevant. He is a soldier that seriously violated UCMJ law.

And willingly releasing a truck load of classified data is no petty offense.

Also, didn't wikileaks censor the release to protect people? If thats true, then its wikileaks that lessened the chances of harm being caused. Not Bradley Manning. If Manning is really guilty of what he has been charged with, then he unarguably exercised wreckless abandon against the safety of those that might have been put in unnecessary danger. He had no way of verifying that he wouldn't compromise the safety of other human beings when he released the documents.

Seriously your argument is crazy and I don't think you've thought it through enough or you would realize that. Based on your perspective, the military should set a precedent that its okay for soldiers to engage in massive violations of their own rules with no repercussions. Thats its "okay" for soldiers with classified access to just dump classified information onto the public's lap at will.

is not a traitor. He leaked to a journalist who handled it professionally, knowing that wikileaks would take precaution. He didn't just dump classified info into the public's lap.

I never said he should or would get off. I was responding to the idiocy of calling him a traitot that should be sent to gitmo.

Reread the thread if you are still having trouble following this conversation.

great analogy. Manning was given a duty and he failed on the job. The duty was to secure and NOT leak classified info. It was not his job to determine what was classified or not. His job as in any military postion was to obey the chain of command. I can only imagine a Military where all soldiers are given the permission to obey only the rules they agreed with.

How is this any different than the birther soldier who refused deployment because he argued the CiC is not legal, based on birth cert questions. He was charged with disobeying orders. Now I understand that fighting a war is a whole other argument, but these guys chose this line of work and it had been drummed in to them what is expected of them on the tax payer dime...and a big, no huge part of that is to adhere to the rules and the commands.

you leak classified info, you get put in jail.

Probably because many of the framers of the Constitution had themselves once committed treason.

Good to know.

This place has turned into a fucking joke.

I think he should get used to it.

I think the American public has a right to see the info he leaked. I'm sure he isn't the only person who had access to the info before the leak. Looking back into history at the info Daniel Ellsberg leaked. That turned out to be a good thing and helped end the Vietnam war.

The conditions are setup to wear his health down and destroy his emotional health.

It seems pretty apparent this approach comes from the same ideology that thinks that torture is acceptable on most any account and extracts accurate accurate information. Both ideas of which are an attack on American values and science.

It usually takes 2 to 3 years for it to go to trial. Meanwhile these supposed terrorists and traitors are kept mostly in isolation. By the time they go to trial they're not in their right mind and would probably say or agree to anything.

It's becoming a pattern with our government and this war on terror and it makes me rather ill to see democrats on this site defend this blatant disregard for human rights and the constitution.

whenever I see this unreasoning rightwing bullshit posted here, I wonder what is happening to US. Too many years of fauxsnooz bullshit and it seeps into everything, I guess.

Maybe they can hang him too.

We should have the Obama DOJ look into it.

I kid.

I refuse to take this rw dem bullshit seriously on NY EVE.

Have a Happy.

I thought that was a great time to really meditate and think.

has proven that solitary confinement is torture. That it is more apt than not to destroy a person's personality and cognizant capabilities.

I'm not going to get into a battle over it. But when things like that happen, let's say in a prison and such. It's not the solitary confinement itself that is the torture it's the person's own outlook on life that is actually what is destructive and becomes torturous. Again a bit of pop psychology---but it's more the sense of despair that eats at the person. The non-tangible mental self-torture and that eats away and would seem to be torture. Not really the sense of confinement. People have been known to completely remove themselves from society for years and live fairly well. That in and of itself would be solitary confinement.

In any event...I have to find out the level of crime and if he's admitted to the crime. I will say that in general for any sort of leaked documents---I'd say solitary confinement is severe. However, if it's the point where it could lead to the deaths of many people. Well then...and since the crime itself is just treasonous. I would say that solitary confinement would be justified. However, I'd need more information to make a clear analysis. I would not think the confinement is deserved until he had a fair trial.

Additionally do we know for certain that he has been placed in solitary confinement? Has it been confirmed?

Solitary confinement (which does not equal isolation, by the way) is universally condemned as torture. It is condemned by the U.N.,The Geneva Conventions, and by the U.S. (when practiced by other governments, of course). Amnesty International has condemned, as torture, the U.S. use of solitary confinement in our Super Max prisons.

Solitary confinement is not merely severe. It is inhumane. It is cruel and unusual. It is torture.

Finally, I'll leave you with this:



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lynn-parramore/tortured-until-proven-gui_b_803018.html

Are you certain? Can you get me quotes where that's been the case?

In any event, I have no real opinion either way...except to say as I said in another post---he should not be put in solitary confinement if and when he's convicted of a crime and if it's warranted. I want rapists to go to prison for life, however I can't have it.

"Officials held unruly detainees in solitary confinement for up to six days on a rice-and-water diet."

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2009/eap/135992.htm

Hell, we recently condemned Pakistan for indefinite detention as if Guantanimo does not exist!

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

and in fact every supermax prison in america, you know, the ones that house the violent criminals, use 23 hour isolation all the time.

Solitary confinement/prolonged isolation is torture, as is sleep deprivation. This article also discusses Supermax prisons.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/03/30/090330fa_fact_gawande

Long-term solitary confinement is banned under Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions.
http://www.amnesty.org.au/hrs/comments/20575/

Manning has been held in solitary for 7 months...he is prevented from exercising and is subjected to sleep deprivation.

which happens to be shared with others.

Yes, its very hard. The types of isolation referred to in the new yorker are 24 hour isolation with zero human contact and no outside waste disposal. The New Yorker makes a leap, maybe not a huge one, but a leap none the less in attaching the same to 23 hour supermax detention. no, its not torture. But its awful damn close.



Art 3 states the following:

"Art 3. In the case of armed conflict not of an internatio­nal character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contractin­g Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following
provisions­:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilitie­s, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstan­ces be treated humanely, without any adverse distinctio­n founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-ment­ioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation­, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) taking of hostages;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular­, humiliatin­g and degrading treatment;
(d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constitute­d court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensa­ble by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for."”

Your saying that although supermax detention is legally NOT torture, its close enough and cruel enough that it should be considered as such. You further go on to assert that although the law and society at large disagrees with you, that because of those reasons, it suddenly IS torture. You then further leap to the conclusion that since it "is" torture, that Obama tortures.

This is the same exact partisan spin that the religious right uses in the abortion debate.

1. Assert that all abortion is murder
2. claim that planned parent hood murders millions every year.

I mean, if you want to be detached from reality, go right ahead. I wont change anything. At least you are doing for moral reasons. You would probably be more effective in simply working to get supermax detention banned in america and defined legally as torture. The Geneva conventions don't apply to prisoners in the criminal justice system.

I believe it psychologically/emotionally/spiritually destroys the vast majority of people who experience it for months at a time.

I mean, its no far fetched and doesn't harm anyone to ban it in america.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Just kidding.... as I'm *sure* the op is. ( He IS, isn't he?)

Have a happy New Year.

"She's fair game....."

A few decades ago when I was in the Army, it could have been my job to catch manning. I was a counterintelligence agent and worked on some espionage cases and compromise cases.

He should be treated humanely.

WRT isolation, at least their gulags allowed you to talk to people.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Alhtough I think I would feell safer in isolation and prefer it

There is no "general population." There is, according to the base's PAO, a "solitary confinement" section, where Manning apparently is not. However it's unclear what the differences are.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

his safety doesn't require that.

Do you really and honestly think that the general military prison population doesn't see his act as treasonous and would therefore wish to do him bodily harm? It's been touted that a traitor in a military prison would be treated the same as a pedophile is treated in the general prison population....their lives are in danger. You wish to risk his lie on your hunch? I call bull.

Think about it.

He should be in prison, and should be held until trial.

to anyone thinking about exposing the crooks and incompetent running our government. By all means, refuse to find out.

And, for the record, I am neither a fan of Manning's leaks nor of Wikileaks.

the guy is a scumbag leaker of classified info, double tap n dirt nap is in his future, the government from top to bottom is full of scumbags,liars,and worthless people who fuck the regular folk over at every turn, from the TOP to the BOTTOM, regardless of d or r behind the name!!

Otherwise, what are the people in the service trying to protect and defend?

of military rules and regulations. He knew the conditions of his military employment, what material he was handling, and what could and could not be done with it. He simply broke the rules he had agreed to.

He is undoubtedly safer in solitary than he would be placed in the general population.

He is military. He is not a civilian.

He knew in advance what he was getting into and did what he will be charged with.

Most of those who have served understand and most of those who never served do not.

There's a little thing called the Constitution.

If you served, you may recall swearing an oath to defend it.

And the rules he is held under were made by Congress or regulation. That is the work of elected representatives of the people. The would be kings are the ones that seem to expect what they personally like to be the law already.

There are many prisoners in the U.S. who are in solitary confinement, aren't there? I mean, we're not talking sensory deprivation and torturous things like that, are we?

Solitary Confinement: It has been widely documented that solitary confinement is a cruel practice which causes permanent psychological damage to those who have been treated in that manner5. Solitary confinement alone, even in the absence of brutality can cause emotional damage, hallucinations, delusions, depersonalisation and declines mental functioning6. It has also been documented that the circumstances surrounding the detention has a significant impact on the psychological damage experienced by the detainee, such as not knowing why they are being detained in such a way which is common in Guantanamo. Solitary confinement is banned under Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions as it amounts to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment. Manfred Nowak who is the U.N. Special Rapporteur on Torture addressed his concerns about detainees being held in solitary confinement in October of 2008 where he commented that it was ‘deplorable’ that individuals were held under those conditions7.

http://www.amnesty.org.au/hrs/comments/20575/

And there is a lot of concern internationally that it violates international law.

Face it, if the possibility of rape is so real in our prisons that it's an everyday joke, our prison system is conducting an ongoing campaign of criminal activity.

apparently this guy AND federal and state prisoners are all allowed communications with others, if only legal counsel. Prisoners are allowed communications from family & friends, as well, despite being in "solitary confinement."

The one big concern I have about this situation is that the guy says they don't let him exercise in his cell. He can't stay physically fit w/o exercise of some sort. That ought to be looked into...but even that, you know, I have my doubts about that. All the stories are coming from the incarcerated man and his legal counsel; the military won't make any statements about it at all, even to deny.

One thing is certain, though. He has legal and civil rights, and he has a lawyer. If his conditions amount to "cruel and unusual" punishment, that will be stopped, once the lawyer files papers with the courts (military courts or whatever).

I think some of this is PR for the incarcerated man, to drum up sympathy for him and to skirt the issue of why he is being held. But they need to charge him or let him go, IMO.

and you see guards every day (who are not torturing you), and you're allowed communications with your legal counsel, I don't think that's what the Geneva definition of "solitary confinement" is. Geneva is talking about putting someone in a hole for a period of time with no communication with anyone, never being allowed contact with anyone else, or allowed out. That's not what's happening here, apparently.

It sounds like they're doing the minimum of what they have to do under the law. In other words, they're pissed big time at the guy, but are following the law.

Everyone on death row is in a sort of solitary confinement. This doesn't mean they don't have conversations with others, so doesn't fall within the def. of cruel punishment.

he went nuts. Going nuts is very painful, and that pain is the point of the punishment. You apparently think otherwise. I'd be glad to lend you opinion credibility after you've experimented on one of your family members. Otherwise, it's just sadism.

Overall, the research suggests that solitary confinement has potentially
serious psychiatric risks (Brodsky&Scogin, 1988; Grassian, 1983; Grassian
& Friedman, 1986; Korn, 1988; Kupers, 1999; Miller, 1994). Isolation can
produce emotional damage, declines in mental functioning, depersonalization,
hallucination, and delusion (Brodsky & Scogin, 1988; Grassian, 1983;
Korn, 1988; Kupers, 1999; Miller, 1994; Scott & Gendreau, 1969). Inmates
in isolation, whether for the purpose of protective custody or punishment,
suffer from numerous psychological and physical symptoms, such as perceptual
changes, affective disturbances (notably depression), difficulties in
thinking, concentration and memory problems, and problems with impulse
control (Brodsky & Scogin, 1988; Grassian, 1983; Grassian & Friedman,
1986; Miller, 1994).

http://www.supermaxed.com/NewSupermaxMaterials/Supermax-Rise-Errect..pdf

but then that would make sense for someone who is attmepting to promote an issue that doesn't exist.

Perhpas you are right, Manning would be better off integrated with the general militay proson population? Are you insane? He wouldn't last 10 mins.

and Amnesty International has condemned the U.S. over the conditions in our Supermax prisons.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

that someone who going to be tried for leaking classified info should (or could) be kept isolated, then....I'm okay with that, depending on the environment. Does he have books or anything to bide his time? Is his area climate controlled and large enough for him to have a sleeping area and stand up straight and run in place or do jumping jacks to keep physically fit? Things like that.

I mean...if he were in a dark, dirty, dank, environment, that would be bad...even if he were surrounded by other people.

We have people here on DU flatly stating we should ignore United States and international law and kill someone, based on nothing more than their personal opinion.

If Manning knew what was in the cables and DIDN'T do his best to get them to the public, now THAT would be treason in the quite literal sense.

23 hour isolation. really? who gives a fuck. I could use some isolation frankly.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

They leaked information classified at a much higher level that actually had the potential to get people killed. While I don't agree with what Bradley Manning did, it's clear that politically connected people who leak classified information get much better treatment and often don't even get punished for their crimes.

He should be able to talk to his family and friends. He should be able to read and play games. He should be able to nap and do whatever he pleases other than leave.

doesn't matter WHO is President

Jaysus Kee-rist this party gets more fucked up every damn day!

and not to confine him away from the general population would be irresponsible.