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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:36 AM
Original message
"Shake your fists, then get real"
Shake your fists, then get real

by Karoli

As long-time readers know, my daughter (Ms. Dancer) is a competitive dancer. She has competed in world, national and regional competitions. Like all kids competing at her level, she discovered early on that even if she outdanced the competition, she could still lose because the judges liked the look of the other dancer, their hair, the color of their dress, or some other detail that simply held their attention. She learned a hard lesson at a young age: being the best doesn’t guarantee the win. Worse yet, it seemed that she would miss her goal by one place. This was to be the one constant of her competitive career. (She’s on hiatus right now due to a situation with the status of her school.)

Our conversations would go the same way every time. She’d suck it up in public, put on a smile and be gracious to the winner, get in the car, burst into tears and declare, “It’s NOT FAIR!!!”, to which I would reply “You’re right. It’s not. But it’s what it is. Do you quit? Or do you go on to the next one?” Those were real options. She knew she had the right to quit at any time without any protest from me as long as she understood her own reasons for doing so, and was honest about them.

She’d cry, shake her fists, rail at the subjective judges and the next day she’d put her shoes on, go back to the studio, practice some more and we’d go on to the next competition. Over the ten years she competed, she climbed through the standings to be a top-20 dancer in a 7-state region, top-10 in California in her age group.

We both learned to let go of disappointment and work harder for the better result, building on the strengths and working out the weaknesses. So what does this have to do with my normal topics?


If you think I’m not furious with Joe Lieberman, you’d be wrong. I am. During his press conference today I wanted to slap that grin right off his face. His self-aggrandizing love-fest with himself is enough to make anyone scream, even Howard Dean, who doesn’t need much encouragement to get his own share of the spotlight.

There is nothing more maddening that feeling like you’ve put a ton of work into something only to have some arrogant jerk step on your hand and take it away in the blink of an eye. I get that. I feel that. Ms. Dancer and I both know that feeling way too well.

Here’s the thing: We’re not Charlie Brown and Joe Lieberman isn’t Lucy. This is how it’s done, like it or not, and it’s really time to step up and look at reality. I want to take some of the common themes I’m seeing around blogs, Twitter and the like and really break them down to see if they’re myths or the real deal.

Democrats have the votes to ram it through
Here’s where the reality check makes a difference. Let’s count the Senators, one by one. Nope, still only 58 and of those 58, probably 55 are a sure vote. Then there’s Bernie Sanders, and…oh HAI, it’s Joe Lieberman.

So no, we don’t have the votes, because cloture needs 60 votes, and to get to 60, we need a Republican or two or else complete and total unity inside the caucus.

Lieberman gets this. Why don’t we?

Conclusion: We don’t have the votes. Myth busted.

We’ve been sold out by (choose your name: Obama, Reid, Rahm)
Let’s see if I can put this argument together. It goes like this: If really wanted to, they could twist arms and MAKE THEM VOTE FOR WHAT WE WANT. They’re (choose as many as apply): a) sellouts; b) crummy leaders; c) intentionally sabotaging health care reform; or d) Republicans in disguise.

So…

- We’ve established that there aren’t 60 votes if no compromise is made.
- Every day things stay at an impasse is one more day Republicans get to bring primitive foamboard charts to the floor (I’ve been waiting for the felt charts to come out with little Jesus figures on them like Sunday school…) and tell lots of lies with lots of soundbites about the reform package.
- We can get 60 votes if we a) Delay until mid-January, as Ms. Snowe wishes; or b) play ball with Joe Lieberman.
Fact: It isn’t fair. What are you going to do? Quit or move on? Hold onto blame and disappointment or work with what you’ve got, take the good out, work harder to fix what you don’t like in the next round?

Myth: It’s a sellout. It’s not a sellout. It’s how this stuff works. You can argue about Lieberman’s motives, but the bottom line is that Lieberman holds the trump card, he’s played it, and we can deal with the disappointment and come back harder and stronger in the next round, or pick up our toys and go home.

Whining, by the way, is not an option. Not with my daughter, and not in my mythbusting scenarios.

If President Obama were a better leader, he’d MAKE (insert name here) give in
He’s the President of the United States, not a Mafia don. The Republicans might think he’s a big bad scary black dude, but he’s really just a smart guy with a decent head for how this stuff goes, and a doggone pragmatic streak that just drives idealists nuts.

To those who like this argument, I’d be very interested to know when the last time was that they were successful by yanking someone up and “making them do it”.

Good luck with that.

Fact: Democrats have competing priorities under this big top, and represent constituencies that include pharma, insurance companies, doctors, medical device manufacturers, and other interested parties. Some Democrats represent budget hawk districts, where they’re expected to be the keepers of fiscal purity. Corollary: Democrats aren’t Republicans. They don’t strongarm their caucus into a strict, unified message. Ask Lindsey Graham what happens when a Republican strays off message. That has never been the style of the left.

Myth: By virtue of being the President, Barack Obama can take individual members to the woodshed and twist their arms to reverse a strongly-held position.

The insurance companies win
Oh, boo hoo. That’s like Ms. Dancer crying because she was second, even though she was…SECOND. In a field of 50.

Plus, they don’t really win. Not so much at all.

To insurers, winning means getting to do what they want, how they want, at whatever price they want, to whatever customers they choose, for the highest profit margin they can squeeze.

So what do they get? Required guaranteed issue of every insured with no underwriting requirements; minimum medical loss ratio of 85% (or 90%, depending); requirement to submit rate increases in advance with full justification; requirement to post detailed information about how premium dollars are spent on the Internet; requirement to cover claims without lifetime or annual caps on benefits; requirement to adjust focus from illness to wellness by covering preventive procedures 100%; and loss of the right to arbitrarily withdraw coverage from any insured at will right when the person needs them most; and best of all, limits on the differential between younger insureds and older ones.

They also get what they’ve resisted most for a very long time: regulation. Heavy, heavy regulation.

Yeah, that sounds like a win to me. How about you?

No, the insurance companies don’t win.

We’re screwed because we don’t have a public option
I’m not going to spend a lot of real estate on this one, since I already proved the public option to be a symbolic and sacred cow that has little to do with cost control and everything to do with a promise of a future single payer system.

Are we screwed? Well…other countries have similar arrangements to this, most notably Switzerland. No one died in Switzerland this year because they didn’t have access to health care insurance. Sadly, we can’t say that here in the US.

Finally, there’s no reason the public option or single payer or Medicare expansion can’t be the “work harder to make it better” piece of our future. It is a canard to say that the public option represented reform. It didn’t. It represented part of a larger package of reforms with one single major reform at its heart: Banning exclusion for pre-existing conditions.

We can afford to wait till it can be done right
This comes from the same group who uses the “44,000 people die in the US because they don’t have access to health care argument”? How does that work exactly? We die till we don’t? It’s important, those uninsured dying people till the ideal is more important?

Moreover, I’m trying very hard here to figure out how, with 2010 midterm elections looming large, waiting means somehow snatching a bigger success from a failure. Can anyone familiar with history point to any time where a bill has made it this far, been pulled back by proponents, and lived as a stronger version of itself? I can’t. I couldn’t find one single time where that was the case.

No, we can’t afford to wait. There are too many people hanging by a thread right now.

More importantly, if this is stalled, kiss a jobs bill or a cap-and-trade bill or any other really meaningful legislation goodbye right alongside it because a stoppage on this bill makes winners of teapeople and Republicans. There’s only one message stoppage sends: THE TERRORISTS WIN.

If I were mom of the world, I’d say this: Shake your fists. Be angry. Be active. Be engaged. But don’t be fooled by myths and memes, even when they come from the so-called good guys.

http://www.drumsnwhistles.com/2009/12/16/shake-your-fists-then-get-real/
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LiberalLoner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. Okay, I'm feeling a little better after reading this.
Maybe there are still some good things in the bill. Maybe it's not just a give-away to the insurance companies that will lead the majority of the nation to vote anything but D the next few elections...
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think there's an error in this.
Apparently an annual cap was inserted into the bill at some point, which means people with devastating illnesses will not be covered if they exceed the annual amount. (This was being discussed last night on several shows, and has also been covered here at DU.)

This alone loses my support. People with cancer or something else that is expensive to treat will find themselves without coverage. No coverage = no treatment. With something like cancer, any delay can have a major impact on the outcome.

Not good. Not reform.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. That isn't going to stay in. Reid inserted it. The White House said they are going to get it
out of there. That is one of the issues, like preexisting conditions, which President Obama always mentioned getting rid of of in the legislation. The House also doesn't allow it. I really do not think it will be in the final legislation.

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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:49 AM
Response to Original message
3. If we don't have the votes to get a good bill, we should drop it and try again.
The current bill is bad. It does more harm than good. Like Ms. Dancer, we should drop it, let go, and move on to the next competition.

:dem:

-Laelth
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pdxmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
4. The writer of this piece is a friend of mine and she knows of what
she speaks. She has studied the various bills, understands the minutiae of insurance, and more importantly than all of that, is living a pre-existing condition, insurance-denied life. She's a got a dog in this fight, because unlike the pundits on our TV screens or the Congress critters blowing rhetoric, she is living a life of wondering how to cover the medical needs of her family, which are big. She is an activist and has been on the front lines.

You don't have to agree with her analysis, but I hope it will make those who are so angry and ready to throw out the baby with the bathwater stop for just a moment and listen to what she has to say.
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MNDemNY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:59 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Nope this bill sucks . Kill it.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. She's been great covering this issue.
:hi:
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Raine1967 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. Agreed!
I have had the honor to work with her on a HCR website we did, She is one of the most rational prgmatic people in the HCR fight.

Whenever some new twist or turn happens with the reform crap -- she is usually who I turn to to read and see what she has to say--

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Inuca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
28. The please compliment your friend
Great analysis and writing. Felt good to read it. The last few days have been frustrating to the extreme, and the next few ones will probably not be any better, so I am grateful for the short relief and walk in sanity-land.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Yes, thank her for her
explanation and encouragment on this!
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shotten99 Donating Member (478 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Spot on. People had better realize that this is reality
and get with it or we're going to end up with a GOP Congress.

Just wait: Let's see Cantor try to impeach Obama for Bush's lack of WMD.
Don't think it won't happen.
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 07:55 AM
Response to Original message
6. Removing the Mandate is a win-win for everyone.
After the removal of the public option, the mandate is what is making this bill worse than nothing. Without the mandate, no one is forced into buying from a bunch of thieves, Americans are no longer locked into health care through insurance corporations and the Democratic party wont be blamed for every death dealing lousy con the health insurance corporations play.

They could put the mandate on a trigger. If Americans start abusing the health insurance corporations, and the corporations can prove 30% of their customers are waiting until the last minute and causing undue loss in profits, then the trigger would kick in. Or just add the mandate later if problems come up.

Remove the mandate, pass the legislation, and President Obama and the Democratic party can do a happy dance and claim they have health care reform.

Then through reconciliation expand Medicare for all.

It's a win-win for everyone. The health insurance corporations still get some new customers from people who use the subsidies. The Democratic party can pretend to have done health care reform. The Republicons can claim they stopped socialized medicine. And Americans aren't getting a worse system and are getting a few tidbits of improvement.

Then using reconciliation pass Medicare for all.

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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. That's an interesting idea. They were always taking about just getting it to
Conference so I've wondered exactly what the compromise between the House and Senate would entail.

I understand both sides of the mandate argument and can definitely see something being done to make it more palatable in some way since the PO is gone.

I did see a reporter tweet that the Dems are coming up with a plan to start implementing the new health insurance programs more quickly (instead of 2013) and adding more subsidies for people along with expanding ... I'm not sure what. They are going to do it in Reconcilliation after this bill with the insurance reforms passes.

Frankly, the White House and Congress can't be too free with their plans to improve the Bill because that could just get Revolting Joe to not vote for it - just like how he backed off the Medicare-Buy-In because liberals and progressives made it sound too promising. God, that man is despicable.
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DrToast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:13 AM
Response to Original message
8. Well said. *
*
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. This is the question I believe should be asked
IF this bill passes and becomes law, in all its fine minutiae, who comes out more better off than they were before? Who comes out better prepared to take the fight to the next level?

A huge amount of money will go directly to the insurance companies, and I think everyone on our side has pretty much agreed that they are a huge part of the problem. Indeed, they may be THE problem. So what this bill does is to strengthen the position of the insurance companies. They still have the power to limit who gets and who doesn't get covered, whether it is through annual or lifetime caps, whether it is through which procedures and/or medications are covered. Remember, Nataline Sarkisyan had health insurance! It wasn't the doctors who wouldn't treat her; it was Cigna (Connecticut General, by the way) that denied her the transplant that might have saved her life. Can you imagine what a poster child she could have been for them in this fight if they had allowed her to have that surgery?

So the mechanics of this bill seem to channel an enormous additional power to the insurance companies, while sending only limited resources to the American people. The fat cats will grow fatter, they will have more money to fund campaigns to elect senators more favorable to their cause. And because there is nothing even remotely resembling a public option, there is no potential for a success that can be held up as an example when it comes time to "negotiate" the next step. Thus the insurance companies are given more ammunition for the next fight, while we are deprived of what could be the single most effective weapon against them.

The comparison to competitive dancing is slightly flawed. If we were dancers, we would be asked to come back to the next contest with perhaps the toes on our left foot amputated. In other words, we'd be put at a disadvantage for the next round. And each time we didn't win, we'd be further handicapped, while those who win would be given perhaps an advantage of extra points just for having won before. What this does is make any kind of challenge virtually impossible.

To tell you the honest truth, I don't know if this bill would help me or not. I'm uninsured and with those wonderful pre-existing conditions that keep affordable health insurance out of my reach. I'm hoping to make it to 65 and Medicare, but who knows? The point is, it's not about MY personal situation; it's about THE situation. It's about not settling for half, or quarter, or 10-percent measures. It's about not slinking away like a dog with a sop and pretending we've been invited to the banquet.

It's about honesty. It's about calling a pig with lipstick a pig. It's about calling Joe Lieberman a sniveling little worm who cares about nothing and no one but himself. Ayn Rand would love him the way she loved William Hickman: Joe got his and didn't give two shits about anyone else, who lived or who died, who ate or who starved.

And the Dems who applaud him, who embrace him, who kiss up to him, they are accomplices. They are enablers. They are like the mother in the grocery store who buys her whiny, screaming brat everything it wants in the hope it will shut up but never comes to realize that the very things she's giving it contribute to its tantrum.

It's about honesty, too, in calling things what they are. This is a bad bill. Calling it a step in the right direction because a few more people are covered by insurance or because some of the worst abuses of the insurance cartel are curbed a little bit is a misnomer if in fact it makes the real situation regarding health care in America worse. It's not a matter of numbers covered; it's a matter of how well ALL are covered, and if the bottom line is that the people lose and the insurers win, then it's a bad bill and should be killed.


TG2012
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. you are right, insurance companies are the problem
and this bill entrenches them. If this passes we will never see single payer, or anything remotely like it.

Any system (healthcare) predicated on the insertion of an entity (insurance companies) that's purpose is to make a profit, and that profit is made by denying access to that system is a failure on the face of it.
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
21. Hopefully, it will be a step down the road toward regulating them more completely like a utility.
When more abuses occur, it should be easier to add additional regulations prohibiting whatever it is - especially since they will be receiving substantial tax-payer subsidies to help people afford insurance.

We may never get to single payer. It looks likely to go more the way of heavily regulated utilities.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #21
27. Surely you jest!
If anything, they're on their way to becoming LESS regulated, MORE autonomous. And given the windfall of mandated coverage, do you think they're suddenly going to "do the right thing"?

In your dreams.



TG2012
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paulk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 02:06 PM
Response to Reply #21
32. this bill has a clause that continues to protect insurance
companies from anti-trust laws.

Do you really think a government that would include that in this legislation is going to move toward more regulation? We've already seen how well the government has "regulated" the financial industries.

The majority of Americans support a public option. Why would anyone, at this point, think that our government is going to represent the interests of the majority of Americans over the interests of those that line thier pockets? What has happened with this health care debacle, where the "Democrats" (the party that's supposed to represent the common man) hold an overwhelming advantage in both the House and Senate, not to mention the White House, is clear proof of just how broken our system is.

I am glad for you that you can still "hope".




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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. lol, I may start pasting this is as my response to anyone...
.... who repeats these extremely repetitive talking points.
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #10
17. Yeap, the attempts to make Obama responsible for something he can't control sounds freeperish IMHO
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
15. Fact Haters are unrecing ad nausea
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
18. The extra people who would be insured alone are worth it
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Yes of course
Edited on Wed Dec-16-09 11:12 AM by Tansy_Gold
Those who are added to the rolls of the insured are undoubtedly worth any cost, even if that cost is to deny others any hope of ever receiving health care, even if that cost is the perpetuation of the system that denies others, even if that cost is so exorbitant that those it would cover can't afford it.

There is a point at which the costs of a system really can outweigh the benefits, and anyone who has any awareness of even rudimentary accounting knows that. Ford believed that the cost of re-engineering the Pinto was too high and that the costs associated with paying off those who were killed or maimed in its fiery crashes was "worth it." They found out otherwise.

This is rather akin to the old story of the wealthy blacksmith who charged $200 to shoe a horse. When the owners complained it was too high, he suggested instead that they pay him $1 for the first nail, $2 for the second, $4 for the third, $8 for the fourth, and so on. There were, after all, only 8 nails to a shoe and 4 shoes to a horse, so most people thought they were getting a bargain rather than paying the outrageous $200.

Just like people were suckered into their ARMs and negative amortization loans and all the rest of the flimflam, too many are now being suckered in by the "more people will be covered" mantra.

Always remember, Nataline Sarkisyan had health insurance.


TG2012
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I don't get this, you sound like a right winger, saying it would be too expensive?
Covering these people won't deny coverage to others who are already covered. :wtf:
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. No, honey, I am not a right winger
What I'm saying is that it's very easy to be suckered into the notion that since SOME additional people MAY be covered, that's it automatically a good thing.

Yes, indeed, some additional people may get insurance. Others won't. This bill doesn't guarantee everyone will wake up tomorrow (or whenever) and have affordable health insurance. It doesn't guarantee that all their treatments will be paid for. It doesn't guarantee that they will be able to afford the premiums.

Unless and until you -- and I mean by that you, individually, treestar -- actually take a look at the bill and figure out what the benefits really are and what the overall costs are, you're foolish to say ooh aah look! Some people are going to get health insurance and and that alone means it's a good thing!

You've got a lot of people on the left who are saying this is a bad bill. If you're on the left -- and I have no idea whether you are or not -- but if you are, you might want to pay attention to what some of these people are saying. It just might be possible that this "better than nothing" bill is really, in actuality with the real facts, worse than nothing. The short term gain -- insuring more people -- may prove to be far far far more expensive than the long term of leaving things as they are, even though things right now are admittedly absolutely terrible. As terrible as they are, they could be worse. This bill just might do that.

I'm a staunch single-payer proponent. I'd have taken the Medicare buy-in option as a healthy (pun intended) start in that direction. I believe the Medicare buy-in option would have ultimately destroyed the health insurance companies, and I believe they should be destroyed. They are parasites, nothing more. They do not deliver health care, and in fact they prevent health care from being delivered to those who need it.

But I do not believe that blind acceptance of this bill is a good thing. Too many people who have spent too much time on this issue are finding too many reasons to oppose it. I prefer to trust them over, well, over Joe Lieberman.



TG2012
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. If you're going to be condescending and use "honey"
I'm done.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. I call old ladies in the grocery store "honey."
It's the way I speak and write. Would you rather I call you "asshole"?

I often write also for the lurkers, not just the people to whose posts I respond directly.

So if you wanta walk away from the conversation, hey, feel free. I ain't nailin' your ass to the chair.

But how anyone could have read my post and taken anything from it that suggested I was implying those who already have coverage would lose it, I just have to do my own :wtf:. I never said that or came even close.

If, on the other hand, you really believe the insurance companies, having been given the gift of mandated purchase of coverage, will voluntarily lower their rates over the long run, you're full of noodles.

The last time I had health insurance, in 2007, my COBRA payment for an individual was $335/month. Just for me, no dependents. I had to drop it because I couldn't afford it. And I couldn't afford it now. If that individual premium goes up to $500, and I'm required to pay it or pay a fine -- some choice! -- what do you think I'll do? I'll have to give up food or electricity. I don't have rent or a mortgage payment, and even if I shot all my dogs and got rid of their food bill, that would only save me about $100 a month. And that doesn't cover copays and deductibles.

How would families do it? Oh, yes, they'd get a subsidy. And that subsidy -- which is our tax dollars -- would not go to pay for their health care, it would go to pay the insurance companies' bonuses.

This is a bad bill, a really bad bill. It makes things better for a few and a whole lot worse for a whole lot more.


TG2012
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. And for those of you who still think I'm some kind of right-winger
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TwilightGardener Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 10:50 AM
Response to Original message
19. K/R.
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damonm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
25. This gets a MASSIVE K&R, and...Spock approves.
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silverweb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-16-09 12:44 PM
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29. Excellent!
:kick:

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