Something doesn't add up -- where's the fucking civil war!!

Saunders seems placid, still working on the bill. The Progressive Caucus "meh"


Feingold - yawn.


All of these people have worked on it a lot longer than we have and we are the ones that are going crazy. The progressive wing of the House and Senate seem strangely quiet.


Here's a wild thought: They have agreed to let Lieberman have his hissyfit. They are going to put it back together in conference and Lieberman has agreed to vote for cloture but against the bill.

Something just isn't adding up.

Even Joe isn't saying anything.

It just doesn't add up.


edited to add

Remember the Black Caucus: No Public Option no Bill

They have been roasting the President on the jobs issue but when Lieberman has his hissyfit they all remain quiet.

Something just doesn't add up.

:shrug:

and in what direction...

I wonder what it's all about?

do they have a plan? I hope so.

but could they get someone else to vote for cloture? I've thought all along that they should court someone like Voinovich for cloture instead of Lieberman. He's kind of a centrist R - seems to be pissed off at the current R leadership and is retiring... Doesn't he have a Dem friend that could negotiate something with him for a cloture vote?

He has nothing to lose.

to get it, because that means he opened with his actual "best" bid.

I just don't get it.

If this IS the bill that the President wanted, perhaps we shouldn't assume too much about WHY he wanted THIS bill.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's probably NOT trying to find more ways to make the bill into an "insurers dream."

And as I said in my other thread, the fact that HE doesn't want the bill killed should end the argument.

is there a MLR?

What is the rate?

Does it have a sunset clause?

This is the time to argue and question - Remember Obama is the one that said this is going to happen from the bottom up and that we didn't have to agree all of the time, and that sometimes he would be wrong.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=7259615&mesg_id=7259615

He has also stated that he won't vote FOR this bill in it's current form.

What he hasn't stated is whether or not to vote for cloture. However, over the last few months he has stated repeatedly that voting on procedural matters should follow the leadership of the caucus (and he caucuses with the Democrats). And he wanted every Democrat to basically sign a pledge to follow that principle. Procedural votes like Cloture.

He isn't in the "kill bill" camp. Actually, neither is Howard Dean (or most of us).

I'd be in favor of this bill if they removed mandates and the ability of insurance companies to move to states that have less regulation but still do business in your state. I guess we won't care about cost containment. And I hate the way the Senate pays to insure those that choose to buy insurance with the subsidy. But I'd be willing to go along with that.

Howard Dean has stated that he wants the "bill" to go to reconciliation. I don't think there is the political will to actually do that.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=433&topic_id=69408&mesg_id=69408

And the notion of voting for the bill in its current form .... Keith ..... never fails to make me laugh because NO ONE thinks it's going to STAY in its current form before its voted on.

What's the current form anyway? What Harry introduced a month ago? Or What Harry introduced a month ago pluse the Manager's Amendment? WHAT are they going to be voting on next Monday? ... or on Chrismtas Eve or whenever ...... if you know, do tell.

Because I've seen this bogus financial analysis being posted right and left by you defenders of this piece of crap bill. But there is NO posted version of the bill to analyze and the financial analysis isn't done yet by the CBO for the version that expanded Medicare to include those down to age 55... and now I'm guessing that we will NEVER see those numbers from the CBO. This one is by Nate Silver, the same one that posted the ridiculous list of 20 questions.

But what I believe he was referring to when he stated that earlier today... he was talking about the Reid bill as most recently amended and re-written by the gang of 10... now minus the expansion of Medicare to include people 55 and older.

that would make an excellent t shirt

"I support every piece of crap bill that President Obama supports"

I think it describes you folks perfectly.

I'm for killing it, what do you all think?

What Howard Dean has said is that Reid should abandon the 60 vote quest, restore the public option, and try to get a bill passed through reconciliation. I'm not sure what would have to come out for it to pass that way, but I'm willing to take a chance and see. I think most people (and, no, I don't have numbers) here at DU that oppose the current Senate bill would be willing to risk reconciliation.

However, I don't the Reid has the backbone to do it.

What could pass in reconciliation is simply expanding Medicare. And raise taxes on those that earn more than $200K individual or $300,000 as a couple by a few percent to pay for it. That's all budget stuff and would pass muster as doable under reconciliation. I think there is 50 votes for it (plus Biden).

and that if the leader of their party says "do this for me"... well, they might just do it for him.

I can't blame them for that. I'm sure they all have their reservations on the direction things are headed.

But they are being good Democrats right now. After all, it's no small thing to cross the President of the United States who also just happens to be the leader of your party.

They have been roasting the President about not enough jobs for Blacks


They said that they wouldn't support any bill without a public option.


But since Lieberman went crazy they haven't said one single word.


Something just doesn't add up.

to our attention. I certainly didn't know this bc I don't see any of the tv just what's on DU and I thought maybe the whole world was on fire.

about black unemployment. But I wouldn't say their criticism of the President has been "roastful." If anything, it is much more tempered, logical and policy-oriented than 99.75% of the stuff coming from other supposed Democrats. (I know Conyers has been extra grumpy lately but he's just one dude.)

When the CBC is supportive of Obama, it gets 1/34567th of the coverage as when they're critical. That may explain why it seems as if they've been "roasting" him lately.

What of it? Are you being a bigot?

You have heard of them. And you also know what the 'good Germans' did in WWII. Some, not all, in case you weren't quite sure.


And you knew good and well what I was talking about. Don't play dumb and don't accuse. How ridiculous. Shame on you.

Peace.

Got it.

:crazy:

What I meant is that, for now, the progressive wing of the Democratic party, who are elected federal officials (Feingold, Boxer, Anthony Wiener, Grayson) are not running to the TV cameras to trash the bill or cross - openly - the President.

So they say things that hedge like "We'll have to see what the final bill looks like" and "we hope to bring some things back to the table at a later point" and the every infamous "don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good".

Most of them are doing this, especially since the first Democratic caucus meeting at the White House a couple of days ago.

Other than the little "time snipe" that Al Franken did to Joementum, has any Democrat who is ELECTED come out and trashed Joe for his duplicity?

Obama doest say so, then it's over. I think it's way past over. We are screwed.

they only leverage they have is to kill the bill and they just don't have the will to do that.

Funny how it doesn't do that to the blues.

victory of sorts....

since Obama has pinned so much on HCR, dems are prolly terrified of how this is crashing, and in some kind of damage control mode

But I think you are probably right.

but things are so messed up now; think the bill will only get worse, not better.....

and the way even progressive critics have sort of gone silent today...well....think it's what i
said: they're quietly deciding to capitulate, to try to save the dem presidency

Leaders, rather than ranters, are in positions of responsibility and are (by and large) behaving as such.

You notice most of them talk about the in bill the long term while the left wing intertoobs has descended into catch phrase driven rants. Yeah, there have been some discussion about what to do next in terms of say pursuing a public later after through reconciliation, but much has just crap throwing.

It really does give some solace to watch from afar as public support dissipates further with each new sell out to the corporate right....

The optics are that the rethugs think passing a crappy bill will still be a defeat.

So maybe the game is simply to get a "win" on the scoreboard, even knowing it is already a loss, but that the other side will still act like it.

Why? I don't know, because I had hoped the adults were in charge.

My glass isn't half full, its perfectly position to erupt in an overflowing cascade of refreshment.



but still a lot of very good progressives have gone very silent.


Even if they have given up you would expect some loud shouting.


Again the Black Caucus hasn't been shy and they said no PO no bill.


It just seems like some kind of an arrangment has been made.

I don't which is the optimist position there?

I think there might be a December surprise in the Conference committee.

Either that or they just fucking gave up.

I don't know about what is (or isn't) going on in Congress. :shrug:

>whines pathetically< Don't toy with me, man.

Hekate

The Liberals are in a difficult position because if they help kill the bill then they hand over victory to the Republicans.

And also this person said that the reason the Conservative Dems have leverage is because it is their votes the WH has to get. Not the Republicans. So it gives them power. Something to that effect. Anyway it made sense to me.

I don't think Bernie Sanders of all people wants to be blamed for giving the Republicans a victory or seeming like he has had anything to do with it.

guys that have been fighting for this all their lives are keeping very quiet now.

Seems like Dean was the designated hitter. Maybe he's the guy who was supposed to get Obama's attention with the hope that would shift the dynamic. Or maybe he was the sacrificial lamb. It really does depend on Obama. If he is adamant that the deal that he wants, or at least the deal that he believes he can get, can only be won by courting the right, he will do so while he threatens the hell out of the left to fall in line. It is early in the Obama Administration, Liberals in Congress have years to look forward to ahead to be co-existing with Obama. True Progressives are in a minority and they know it. They have reason to believe that semi-liberals will back them on the Public Option etc. but NOT if Obama strongly argues against going there to the soft Liberal center of the Democratic Party.

I think it more likely that progressives calculated their next moves based on how Obama reacted to the overt threat from the left represented by Dean. It is possible that Obama spokespersons in public called Dean irrelevant while in private this administration opened up constructive talks with those whose viewpoints Dean represented, but that is a leap of faith I am unwilling to make unsupported by some facts. It too much reminds me of the Obama is a 10 dimensional chess player world view that always assumes he must have the winning cards up his sleeve that he will play at exactly the right moment to make us all happy. I'm not buying it for now.

I think it more likely that Obama is talking with Progressives like Sanders looking for some fig leaf he can throw them to keep their base from total revolt. I think our left flank in Congress is as afraid of the consequences of a civil war with Obama as they are of not delivering the goods on an issue of critical importance to them, since it can't be delivered anyway without Obama's support.

The key lies with Obama. If we, his base among the public, can't make him budge than I don't think most of our Progressive representitives in Congress will push him any harder trying to make him. Some may still lash out after they become certain that nothing can budge this Administration from it's current course. We shall see.

after the health and climate bills get signed. If so, it would not be in their interests to broadcast it.

Panic?