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Xpostfactoid: "lambasting Obama for not making arguments that he did, in fact, make"

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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:04 AM
Original message
Xpostfactoid: "lambasting Obama for not making arguments that he did, in fact, make"
A pretty thoughtful response to Westen's editorial which brings up the point that bothers me, namely, that Obama has been telling the story progressives want him to:

http://xpostfactoid.blogspot.com/2011/08/lover-of-fairy-tales-casts-obama-as.html

Most of it is just quote/counterquote so I won't excerpt too much, but an example:

Westen:

In fact, the average American had no idea what Democrats were trying to accomplish by deficit spending because no one bothered to explain it to them with the repetition and evocative imagery that our brains require to make an idea, particularly a paradoxical one, "stick."


Obama, April 14, 2009:

Now, some have argued that this recovery plan is a case of irresponsible government spending; that it is somehow to blame for our long-term deficit projections, and that the federal government should be cutting instead of increasing spending right now. So let me tackle this argument head on.

To begin with, economists on both the left and right agree that the last thing a government should do in the middle of a recession is to cut back on spending. You see, when this recession began, many families sat around their kitchen table and tried to figure out where they could cut back. So do many businesses. That is a completely responsible and understandable reaction. But if every family in America cuts back, then no one is spending any money, which means there are more layoffs, and the economy gets even worse. That's why the government has to step in and temporarily boost spending in order to stimulate demand. And that's exactly what we're doing right now.


Westen:

Nor did anyone explain what health care reform was supposed to accomplish (other than the unbelievable and even more uninspiring claim that it would “bend the cost curve”), or why “credit card reform” had led to an increase in the interest rates they were already struggling to pay.


Obama, Sept. 9, 2009:

Our collective failure to meet this challenge -- year after year, decade after decade -- has led us to the breaking point. Everyone understands the extraordinary hardships that are placed on the uninsured, who live every day just one accident or illness away from bankruptcy. These are not primarily people on welfare. These are middle-class Americans. Some can't get insurance on the job. Others are self-employed, and can't afford it, since buying insurance on your own costs you three times as much as the coverage you get from your employer. Many other Americans who are willing and able to pay are still denied insurance due to previous illnesses or conditions that insurance companies decide are too risky or too expensive to cover.


I think a more accurate question than "why isn't Obama making the liberal case?" is "why aren't people hearing it?"
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
1. Narratives matter.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 07:07 AM by jefferson_dem
But it's downright silly to suggest if only President Obama had told more, and better, stories, we wouldn't be in this mess.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
2. So he said those things once?
Ask any successful advertiser how effective it is to run a commercial once.

NGU.

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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. That's IT, ClassWarrior.
Messages need repeating over and over until most intelligent people are bored silly. And they need to be phrased in 4th to 6th grade language, such as Bush 43 used.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Actually, he's said this shit over, and over, and over, and over...
But people who WANT to believe he's not making the case can conveniently ignore that fact.

Why? For one thing, it's easier to blame one man for not doing what you think needs to be done, than admitting to yourself that maybe that strategy isn't as effective as you would like it to be, or that people aren't as easily swayed.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. How about some links? Perhaps some fresher than two years old?
And if it's "shit," why do you care?

NGU.

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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. ?
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #2
31. So what...you wanted the OP to post each and every single time?
I know for a fact he said those things more than once.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
3. Folks like Westen have built themselves an airtight argument ...
Here's how it works.

The way their argument is structured, the fact that Obama doesn't get 100% of what we want immediately is, in and of itself, PROOF that he didn't frame the message correctly.

Same with the folks who scream about the "bull pulpit". If only Obama framed the message better.

And again, it doesn't matter what he actually said, or when he said it, or how often ... if he didn't get 100% of what we want immediately, he didn't frame it right.

Oh ... and here is the really clever part ... the so called liberal media has decided that its not THEIR job to get the liberal message out ... no, no ... their job is to endlessly bitch and moan that Obama isn't getting it out there.

The liberal media doesn't help the liberal message get out, and then it blames Obama because the message didn't get out.

Its a neat trick really.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. True. All of Obama's failures are the media's fault. Or the Liberals fault. Or theRepublicans fault.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 12:41 PM by Dr Fate
It's not fair- everytime Obama fails to do or not do something, the Liberals always say he would not have failed if he had fought harder.

Then we always come back and show the links that prove that he fought as hard as possible, and then they say: "Well, since he lost, that must mean he should have fought even HARDER."

Where are the crazy liberals getting this type of "logic" from?

No fair- Liberals are always saying that when Obama failed, it means he should have fought harder.

There they go again, being unrealistic- Obama cannot fight any harder than he does, and even if he did, he would still fail (b/c the media/Liberals or GOP would trick or fool him), and Liberals would still claim he could have fought even harder.

He cant win.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
26. "The liberal media doesn't help the liberal message get out??"


Talk about an "airtight argument."

NGU.

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Champion Jack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
4. K & R
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. It's not so much what he said as what he did
Or actually didn't do. While he was making a case for heavy government spending to get the economy moving again, he was sending a puny stimulus package to Congress against the advice of the same economists he quoted so eloquently.

It was the same with the extension of the bush tax cuts and the debt ceiling mess. He made speech after speech saying any agreement to raise the debt ceiling had to include revenues, he was taking revenues off the table in his overtures to Boner and co.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Not being sarcastic, but...
...is your point that things would have been better if he had sent legislation that would never pass Congress to Congress, rather than negotiate what could pass?
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tularetom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. My point is if his actions matched his words
he would have been a more effective negotiator in the future. And he would have established his philosophy of governing - that the government needs to spend money to end a recession.

"Well, congress will never pass this stimulus package that the country desperately needs, so I won't even propose it" is not an inspiring message to the public and it tends to produce cynicism.

In the end he would have had to settle for less than he wanted but he would have gained the respect of the people.

He doesn't really know what he would have gotten because he never even asked.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Yes, he did
He doesn't really know what he would have gotten because he never even asked.

What on earth are you talking about? Of course he did. Do you imagine he doesn't actually talk with GOP leaders about what they are and aren't willing to vote for?

In the end he would have had to settle for less than he wanted but he would have gained the respect of the people.

He's far and away the most respected politician in the country currently. How much more do you think he needs? Why is governance about stoking the Presidential ego to you?

And you still didn't say what these "actions" you want from him are? Is it really submitting an explicit bill that will then get voted down? A lot of people think that makes a President less, not more, respected.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. If he only asks in private, he doesn't ask.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 11:31 AM by jeff47
"Do you imagine he doesn't actually talk with GOP leaders about what they are and aren't willing to vote for?"

If he only asks in private, then no voter will know he asked.

"He's far and away the most respected politician in the country currently."

Amoebic dysentery is the most pleasant fatal disease. Doesn't mean it's good.

"Is it really submitting an explicit bill that will then get voted down?"

Yes. Over and over again. Let every voter know that the Republicans are blocking his efforts to fix the economy. Hang the bad economy around Republican necks. Then ask the voters to replace the Republicans with Democrats. If you don't do this, the voters will listen to any random pundit, and may vote to make the problem worse. Because you did not explain your alternative clearly enough.

"A lot of people think that makes a President less, not more, respected."

It's all how do you do it and how you react to the failure.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Here's what's funny: he did
It died in the Senate. And even you, an politically-engaged person, claiming that would win over the public, don't remember. Your amnesia gives the lie to your claim.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. I have no idea what you're talking about.
If you're talking about the debt deal, Obama didn't propose any bills to Congress. Reid proposed a bill in the Senate which died in the House. It was not Obama's bill, and from what has leaked about his private negotiations, it wasn't anywhere close to what he and Boehner were trying to hash out. For example, it was 100% cuts.

But let's pretend Obama introduced one bill. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about putting on a big show and a major push for his legislation. Making a spectacle out of it so Republicans have to make a spectacle out of stopping it. And then doing it again. And again. And again. Having his surrogates ask constantly since 2010 "Where are the jobs?" followed by yet another jobs bill that the Republicans vote down.

Not one bill and then throw your hands in the air and give up on the country.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. There's your problem...
"... repetition and evocative imagery that our brains require to make an idea, particularly a paradoxical one, "stick." "
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SkyDaddy7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
10. The reason most Americans do not HEAR...
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 09:03 AM by SkyDaddy7
the President or anyone making statements in favor of Progressive Ideas or just common sense ideas that will help solve many of our problems is because it requires LISTENING & THINKING!

Unfortunately Americans respond much better to sound bites like "We stand for freedom, liberty & less government" which requires no thinking! So, when Obama tries to use the government in a positive way it is far easier to criticize such a move than it is for Obama or anyone else to explain it to the American people.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and add in a AWOL MSM & the extremely hard process of getting a message across to the American people becomes almost impossible!
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. Westen addresses that
it's not that he's not saying it, it's that he's inconsistent and incoherent.

Yes you can find examples of Obama saying the "right" thing on every single issue, but unfortunately you can also find examples of him saying and/or doing the opposite:

This pattern of presenting inconsistent positions with no apparent recognition of their incoherence is another hallmark of this president’s storytelling. He announces in a speech on energy and climate change that we need to expand offshore oil drilling and coal production — two methods of obtaining fuels that contribute to the extreme weather Americans are now seeing. He supports a health care law that will use Medicaid to insure about 15 million more Americans and then endorses a budget plan that, through cuts to state budgets, will most likely decimate Medicaid and other essential programs for children, senior citizens and people who are vulnerable by virtue of disabilities or an economy that is getting weaker by the day. He gives a major speech on immigration reform after deporting a million immigrants in two years, breaking up families at a pace George W. Bush could never rival in all his years as president.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. I think of holding at times incompatible views as a hallmark of being adult
Not a hallmark of "this president's storytelling".
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. that doesn't make sense
is sophistry the only way to defend Obama?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. See, I think of sophistry as having a pat, simple, consistent answer for everything
Then again, I see Gorgias or Thrasymachus as the analog of ideologues today: people who think a quick, simple answer consistent with their predetermined worldview will answer any question. This is more common on the right nowadays but it is far from unknown on the left.

The world is complicated and has a tendency to break our ideologies, roughly if we hold on to them too hard. I've always seen that same sense in Obama (and lately in distressingly few other politicians: Biden, Reid, Huntsman, Snowe) and it's why I've liked him.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #13
21. Having incompatible views certainly impresses my boss, and he is an adult.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 12:57 PM by Dr Fate
I was the only guy that did not get fired, and it was moslty due to my incompatible views.

All of the guys who had compatible views were considered too childish, and were promplty fired.

Adults appreciate folks who have the hallmarks of adulthood. Imcompatible views is one of the hallmarks they look for.
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jeff47 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. Incompatible views means you haven't spent enough time thinking about your views.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 06:33 PM by jeff47
For example: Tax cuts are good! We need to raise taxes!

Those are incompatible. Further reflection would result in something like this:

"Tax cuts on the middle class and poor are good, because that increases demand. We need more taxes from the wealthy to pay for services, because tax cuts to the wealthy do not increase demand as much as the increased services to the poor."

Now there's nothing wrong with simplifying this down to the first example for a bumper-sticker situation, but you have to be able to back it up with the details. If you're still at the slogan stage and can't work out the details, you're not behaving like an adult.
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Tarheel_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:20 PM
Response to Original message
18. Some have even admitted they "don't listen to him anymore". From whom do they get their talking pts
:shrug: The PL just recycles the same crap, and slaps a different vitriolic headline on it. I despise their sorry asses!
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Obama should give up trying to impress the PL, and focus on impressing moderates, like in 2010.
Edited on Mon Aug-08-11 12:48 PM by Dr Fate
I despise the PL too, but I respect and believe we should try to impress moderates and swing voters.

They KNOW that Obama is too fighting as hard as he can, despite the lies from the PL.

We dont even need the PL, Obama will speak DIRECTLY to his REAL base (moderates and centrists), and they will hear and believe.

Worked in 2010, and it will work in 2012 and well beyond.
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tledford Donating Member (633 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
28. The Professional Left is a non-existent bogeyman invented by apologists ...
...to blame for the government's failure.

God knows I wish there WERE a Professional Left.
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-09-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. You are confusing the PL with the Emo Liberals. n/t
n/t
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-08-11 12:56 PM
Response to Original message
22. Obama needs a website we can show to swing voters called "He did too say that!"
It could have the internet text that proves that Obama said whatever the far left is saying that Obama did not say.

Once they learn that Obama did too say whatever the PL claims he did not say, they will be more likely to vote for him.
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