If Hillary were President there would be polls asking "Would Obama have made a better President?"

It seems that it is easier to be a bunch of back seat drivers than it is to do what we can and need to do to support President Obama.

As I said yesterday, we can spend the rest of the month fighting amongst ourselves or the rest of the month beating the shit out of the GOP/Teabaggers.

n/t

for capitulating to the GOP/Teabaggers

The dog is chewing off its own leg.

A group of people here would complain that Hilary wasn't progressive enough, and would assume Obama would be better.

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. . .the emos are not my adversaries, however if they get in the way of my beating up on the Republicans I am not afraid to call them out. Unlike some I take no pleasure in antagonizing other Democrats/progressives just because I feel like it, I do it when I feel they are not contributing to moving the party forward.

Its very telling that even when I am not calling out others on our side and setting my sights on the opposition party you want to introduce goad me into fighting amongst ourselves.

I would think if you really don't like it when I pick on the emos you wouldn't try to instigate me to do so when I am focusing on the opposition.

This is very telling.

Will I pick on emos in the future? Only if the give me a reason. Right now I am focusing on the opposition and I'd point out that if we all did that the entire progressive movement and all of its various constituent groups benefit.

As I said yesterday, its up to you what role you will play.

I just do not like your style at all. Sorry. You have been too negative for too long. But you are in some other State, you methods and style might work well for you. Don't know. Here, the name calling stuff does not work for anyone. Ever.

. . .you previous post in this thread got deleted just like others from yesterday.

It seems not only do you not like my style (message received, there are many here whose style I don't like but I leave alone, ones I cannot chronically stand are on "ignore") yet you seek to antagonize me at every chance.

It seems that if I mention articular group in an unfavorable manner in certain threads you feel the obligation to stalk me and bring that up in other threads.

Keep it up, it doesn't reflect poorly on me like you'd hope it would, after all my posts are not getting deleted. I don't antagonize via stalking DUers I don't agree with, like you do.

:kick:

the MEDIA-FUELED soap opera that a 2nd Clinton presidency would have engendered. It makes me sick to think that, but I just couldn't have endured another daily version of "Inside Edition". If you don't know what I'm talking about-you weren't there.

I don't care if they are Democrat or Republican.

I will never just shut up and tow a party line.

Think of Wisconsin. It's a state full of back seat drivers and thank goodness for that.

the Presidency. The Hilary Hatred was so far beyond Obama Hatred that Geezer McCain and Crazy Sarah would now be presiding over an even worse debacle.

IF she had won.... and a BIG IF IMO, she would not now be alive. Yes, I think it is that vicious and hateful in these times. So scary.

I, too, am greatly disappointed in some of the choices Obama has made, but it may take many many years before it becomes clearer how close to the precipice of total meltdown the world came as a result of Bushco.

Though he no longer still has my whole-hearted support -- he still has my vote.

she would have been assassinated? Am I reading you correctly?

Or else taken out or neutralized politically via non-deadly, but still effective ways. Whitewater on 'roids to handcuff her and any positive agenda she might pursue.

I so wish I didn't feel this, but I do and I worry every day for the safety of Obama and his beloveds..

Some of the people who voted for McCain said that they would have voted for Hillary if she had been the Democratic nominee.

;)

:kick:

PUMA de Rothschild was one of the highest-profile ringleaders of that nasty little switcheroo.

Keep dreaming that only the so called "PUMAS" didn't like Obama.

:eyes:

:P

Marathon and Key West to be precise. Had a great week snorkeling, fishing for snapper and diving for bugs (FL lobster season started on Saturday). Nothing better than being on a boat and catching dinner.

Alas, now I'm back at work. Wuuuaaa!!!!

:7

How are things with you?

:hi:

week :)

:hi:

I'm neutral, I like both. We caught the limit pretty fast on Saturday (6 per person) and had some of them for dinner. My friends are staying the whole month, but I had to return to the ole' salt mine.

:D


:pals:

The only part eaten is the tail. The heads are usually thrown away unless someone wants to make fish stock with them. As for the flavor, they taste pretty much the same to me.

;-)

years you can't. price flucuates too much.

I read while I was down there that what keeps the professional lobster fishermen afloat is te Asian market, particularly the Chinese.

summer i went home and lobster was the same (high) prices as in upstate NY.

If they depended for their living only on the domestic market they wouldn't survive.

I guess that's the price one has to pay to eat the critters. LOL!!!

:7

egads, one can only imagine what hell we'd be in!

by name.

He'd rather "mediate" the dispute and split the difference on things he has no business giving away.

That is not leadership that DESERVES support.

"it would probably have been mostly the same"

we need real change next time.

we can spend the rest of the month fighting amongst ourselves or the rest of the month beating the shit out of the GOP/Teabaggers.

Who do you mean when you say "we"? Since the president isn't fighting the teabaggers, if WE fight them, we're not fighting with him.

Obama, until he got the nomination, was never that famous. I think your question is one asked because of celebrity more than quality or policy making.

If Hillary was in this exact same position because she made the exact same decisions as President Obama, would some of the people calling him 'weak' and a 'capitulator' and a 'failure' be doing the same for her? Or would there be a hypocritical double standard to make excuses for her?

. . .decisions.

She would have made a much worse decision back when Obama decided on a small surge before starting to pull troops out of Afghanistan.

After all, she was arguing for an 80k troops increase and a 10 year plan for them. :)

. . .I have no desire to compare who would have been a better President.

I do not think they would have called Hillary "weak" or "capitulator" I think "they" (meaning the corporate whores and talking heads) would have found other words to use for her. "cast iron bitch" is one I imagine would be used. I am sure you can think of some yourself. I think instead of open racism used against the President, were Hillary in charge, we'd see open sexism. Which amounts to the same thing, IMO. Same with the name calling, its all the same to me.

I also think there would be hypocritical double standard making excuses for her, which, again, amounts to the same thing we're seeing now.

So, from my view on this subject, Obama and Hillary are interchangeable. Hillary would have pulled the trigger on Osama, she would have passed HCR, she would have seen a failed economic recovery and she would have endured the debt ceiling fight.

I am always amused when Hillary's name comes back up into the conversation, suggesting that, some how, things would be different if she were in Office and I don't think they would be given how psychotic the opposition is. But the truth is, both Hillary and Obama are centrist Dems at best. Hillary has a greater force of personality and, we now know, willpower, but they both bat for the same team and have the same goals in the end. So I see little difference between the two. I would have been just as comfortable and proud in 2008 to pull the lever for Hillary as I was for Obama.

And you also highlighted my misunderstanding of the original question. I was not thinking of, here internally on DU, rather externally "out there" in the rest of the world. Thanks for pointing that out.

The argument FOR her during the Primaries was that they were interchangeable, yet we're seeing a lot of revisionist, rose-colored reasoning that she would have been a guns-a-blazing bastion of Progressive heroism.

It doesn't compute.

And you're also right about the MSM - they would've had a field day with Clinton II. I actually think they have to work harder to gin up the negative spin on President Obama.

Hillary Told You So

As Democratic disgust with Obama’s debt fumbling spreads, Clinton supporters recall her '3 a.m. phone call' warnings—and angry, frustrated liberals are muttering that she should mount a 2012 challenge.

By Leslie Bennets
Aug 7, 2011

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/08/07/hillary-clinton-2012-calls-grow-with-anger-at-obama-debt-capitulation.html

:shrug:

:evilgrin:

Please........

:eyes:

You can relax, though, Hillary would never do a Teddy Kennedy and run against Obama no matter how much he tanks in the polls. It's not her style. She knows how it would divide the party. More's the pity, the party doesn't deserve her loyalty.

;-)

I love this quote:

Among Clinton fans, particularly older women, the language was frequently far more caustic. “Obama has no spine and no balls,” said a 67-year-old New Yorker.

Who knew they'd STILL be angry? I'm shocked. SHOCKED, I tell ya!

Poor Hillary: Leaving behind a bunch of tearful, bitter, foul-mouthed fans in her wake.


:rofl:

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we may have you joining the ranks of the foul-mouthed set.

We're getting there.

:hi:

:D

Why do I have to like the same people that you do? It's NOT fair!!!! I'm telling mommy on you!!!!

x(


:-(


:cry:

;)

It's so pretty too.

I knew you couldn't resist, neither could my father when I was a little girl.

:7

Thank you!!!

:hug:

The more bankies the merrier.

:-)

Democracy being a participatory form of governance, the participants should always be assessing their choices, past, present, and future. If they're not, then you no longer have a democracy.

"...the rest of the month beating the shit out of the GOP/Teabaggers."

Either choice sucks (the latter because it's a fucking pipe dream at this point.)

I think I'll spend the month (no year) just trying to keep my fucking job and avoiding politics altogether.

Remember how Hillary was treated by republicans on the health care thing?

Remember how both Clintons were hounded from day one, the expense (laid at OUR feet, of course) of Ken Starr's witch hunts?

Does anybody here really believe today's republicans would hate and disrespect Hillary any less than they hate and disrespect Obama, that they wouldn't obstruct her every move? Really??


-

It made a lot of money for them.

She is also a DLC New Dem so she serves the same Corporate and Wall Street masters as Obama.

I happen to think (and thought during the primaries in 2008) that a Clinton and Obama Presidency would be almost identical. The big difference would be in having an outspoken and (obviously) political first spouse advocating for her policies. Clinton is a very hawkish SoS as she would have been as President. If she had won, many Democrats would forever assume that Obama would have been less hawkish. In fact, the amount of times Clinton's name is brought up would be dwarfed by the amount of times Obama's name would have been brought up if the roles were reversed. There would have still bean a very idealistic vision of a perfect Obama had Hillary won. Instead of cries of racism, we'd be hearing cries of sexism.