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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:42 PM
Original message
THE REPUBLICANS ARE AGAINST IT.
NO matter what else, THAT is a very convincing argument.
Senator Al Franken (D) MN said today:

This bill does not fix all the problems with our health care system, and I will not stop working to improve the quality and lower the costs of health care for all Americans. But progressives can be proud of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, and take a large measure of credit for important provisions it will codify as the law of the land.Requiring insurance companies to spend 85% of premiums on actual health services -- not administrative costs, TV ads, or gargantuan CEO bonuses -- is a big victory. Senator Rockefeller and I worked hard to get that provision included because it holds insurance companies accountable and will put an end to exploding premiums and obscene profits – a huge win for progressives.

Like many of you, I supported a public insurance option to increase competition. I’m disappointed that provision isn’t in this bill. But what is in this bill is a significant step toward our goal of universal coverage.

This bill will end annual and lifetime limits on the dollar value of your benefits. Eliminating preexisting condition exclusions for all new medical plans and funding high-risk pools to insure those with preexisting conditions who are currently without insurance means Minnesotans won’t be locked in their jobs or afraid to start their own businesses for fear of losing coverage. Requiring that 85 cents of every premium dollar go toward coverage will limit insurers’ profits and skyrocketing insurance premiums.These are all real, strong reforms that this bill enacts with the urgency this crisis demands


Lets take this and work on universal coverage for all as phase two.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. And so are the insurance companies
In spite of 2000 cutesy posts on DU.
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Ask Wall Street

A lot of money thinks the insurance companies are in for a win.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
14. The stock prices of the killer insurance co. are up substantially. You tell me what they like. nt
Edited on Sun Dec-20-09 11:55 PM by rhett o rick
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:56 PM
Original message
Pretty much all stocks have risen from their lows.
Bank of America was at $4.00, now ~$15.

Wells Fargo was at $8.71, now ~$26.50

Advanced Micro Devices was at ~$2.25, now ~$9.00
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:00 AM
Response to Original message
22. We're talking about just over the last month, not since last March.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:19 AM by girl gone mad
This is a separate rally in health-related stocks. Look below. They've been on fire even as the broader indexes pull back.

eta: This is movement very specifically related to the changes with the health reform bill. Once the PO and Medicare buy-in were permanently removed from the bill, the fix was in and Wall St. started the celebration.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
35. So what's your point? That the killer insurance industry hates this bill? Show me.
Lieberman and Ben Nelson love it. Nuff said?
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slipslidingaway Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
15. "Illness" - AHIP Reform Ad ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R36YJl8SagU

"...If everyone is covered..."

Mandates - yes we have that now.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
20. Nonsense!
They freaking LOVE it. The charts don't lie, pal.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
44. They especially hate that mandate.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
2. That's only a convincing argument to shallow Manichean thinkers
Rah, Rah- Go team!
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angee_is_mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
3. now why did you have to spoil the blame Obama Party?
dang gone it!!!
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
4. Senator Al under the bus in 3..2..1..... nt
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
6. Thank you, Senator Franken..and you know you
can trust his word that he will keep working to make it better.

So lucky to have him in the Senate..ol' coleman would be standing with mitch.
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Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
7. If you read a lot of comments here
You might come away believing that the Republicans- not Obama- are the ones playing "chess" and that they really want this bill to pass but are pretending to fight against it. Kind of a "Brer Rabbit" stategy I guess. :shrug:
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It's a Corporate Conservative's Wet Dream
a captive market of consumers.

The conservative base of the GOP would never go for it, because the idea of forcing people to buy a product is even too outrageous for them to swallow.

But the leadership who answer to the big corporations are not as much against that aspect of this as you might be led to believe. This is a major gift to an industry.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. It involves more government attention being put on them
They hate that. They'd gladly not have those new customers in order to keep doing what they are doing freely.

This whole meme is entirely ridiculous.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
24. Sorry, but that isn't want the big money players say.
The bill, as it stands, is a huge win for industry.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Name an industry that wants the government more involved
In their day to day operations.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #25
29. Did you just get back from Mars?
I seem to recall the banking industry recently demanding that the government pony up and save their too big to fail asses. And the car companies had to have their taxpayer-funded bailout, too. And the drug companies were all on board with Bush's Medicare Part D. And now that the government gets to reach into our pockets and hand our money over to big insurance companies, the investors and execs are jumping for joy.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #29
36. Do you really have to be so rude?
Sure they don't mind being bailed out (and at the time I recall many posts of people who had 401ks and wanted the bank bailout). But they don't want the government involved in their operations, as the insurance companies will have to put up with.

The insurance companies aren't failing here and aren't getting bailed out. They being forced to deal with people they did not want to deal with and to have to deal with the government in the process.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Don't mind? They demanded it. The auto companies ASKED the government..
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:59 AM by girl gone mad
to get involved in their operations. So did the banks. Remember those stress tests? MBS purchase program? Negotiations with auto bondholders? Presidential approval of the restructuring plans?

Of course the insurance companies are failing. They have been failing for decades. They fail to provide a competitive product, and as a result millions of healthy people choose to forgo purchasing said product. Millions more poor people simply can't afford the product. Now all of these people are being forced by the government to buy insurance, and some of the poor people will get government subsidies to buy the product. If that's not a bailout, I don't know what is.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. They don't want 30 million captive new custiomers?
Ha. Surely you jest.

Plus the Democrats have killed the idea of any competition from any form of Medicare expansion or public option.

Some government attention is just a minor inconvenience for them, compared to the bennies they're getting.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. No, they don't want those customers
They will have to deal with the government when it comes to them. That's why they are Republicans. They want the government out of everything.

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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Surely, you jest.
Why pass Medicare Part D and TARP if the Republican goal is to get the government out of everything?
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #27
37. They aren't Republiucans -- They'll buy whoever is for sale and they bought Democrats
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:38 AM by Armstead
This is the Max Baucus and Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman Health Insurance Bill. Only what They approved of got in.

Follow the money.
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
8. Republicans are against cancer and autromobile accidents too
Does that mean it is wrong to be against cancer and automobile accidents too?

By the way, the Republicans are against it for the opposite reason that liberal and progressive opponents of the bill are against it.
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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Even Bill Janklow?
:shrug:
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uponit7771 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. Not if it cost their donors money, in that case they love cancer & car recks and hate puppies
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
9. High risk pools are UTTER SHIT!!
Overpriced catastrophic insurance that does NOTHING to help people with chronic conditions deal with ongoing expenses.
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eridani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. So? They'd be against it even if it required people to turn half their salaries
--over to insurance companies, just because Obama is for it.
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girl_interrupted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. The Dems "win" bragging rights..and that's it
Same as the crappy credit card bill..."Oh look what we did!" CC Bill no caps, concealed weapons in National Parks...Win for Banks and the NRA. Now this...no public option, no medicare buy ins...same BS. Win for the insurance companies & actually the republicans too...they love big business. I always thought Democrats didn't..but I'm finding out there is no difference.

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Starry Messenger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
13. The Republicans would be against it if it cured cancer
and erectile dysfunction. Has there been any signal that there is going to be a "phase two"?
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. NO, what you mean is that they will vote against it. They love it but dont have to vote against it.
because the Democratic Party has sold us out. The repukes can look good for their base while the Democrats screw us over.

Time for a movement.
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. Wish I was as regular as you - too many good rib shacks in KC = not enough fiber in the 'ole diet..
:9
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #23
30. Hey if you feel good about what's happening, go for it. nt
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. You're wrong. please refer to my post below
structure is in place so don't waste a lot of time reinventing the wheel. Just PLEASE I BEG OF YOU don't be another poseur keyboard commando. Actually engage.

There is NO WAY the repblican'ts favor this. I'm sorry it got watered down, but really, we haven't EVER passed ANYTHING before. Think of this as the thing that breaks the dam.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #28
32. Of course I hope you are right. I am cynical because we been screwed regularly for years.
Since Reagan. And Pres Obama hasnt demonstrated that he favors more than this garbage they are giving us. You say better than noting. I am not so sure. You say we can build on this. What makes you think that if we cant get it now, with all the momentum that we will get it later? Dont forget that the killer insurance industry will continue spending billions to weaken this bill.

No mandate without a strong PO. Sorry that's where I draw the line.
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Raine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 03:49 AM
Response to Reply #17
43. On point ... TOTALLY nt
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:57 PM
Response to Original message
18. Kick, Rec. n/t.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-20-09 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
19. Your most erudite concerns are noted
because for over 100 years that kind of thinking has not gotten us very far. But it's not as if these concerns are falling on deaf ears, despite the hysteria. However, further organization is in order.
Try DFA for starters.
Unless you're just here to cause shit, which a lot of you are. :hi:
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Howard Zinn says that the good has come from people's movements.
This HCR is crap and you know it. It is time for a people's movement. Time to stop settling for "better than nothing".

sorry but I am sick of the crap.

It cant be good if Ben Nelson and Joe Lieberman vote for it.
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Capn Sunshine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #34
39. Politics can be frustrating
but PLEASE don't give up! The idea that this literally has not ever passed in over seven administrations, this is going to be the proverbial rock through the window.

It just takes one bill to create the base to build on. And read Grantcarts excellent post. There's a LOT of good in this bill.
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rhett o rick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:10 AM
Response to Reply #39
49. I will NGU but fight harder.
I appreciate your posts.
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Clio the Leo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
33. And that should be the end of the argument.
Says a lot right there.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
38. Fallacy alert.
Edited on Mon Dec-21-09 12:39 AM by Odin2005
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PurityOfEssence Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:51 AM
Response to Original message
40. Yeah, THAT'LL show 'em, won't it? Water down the plan, spend ourselves silly and subsidize insurers
and provide something that really doesn't answer many of the big problems, and guess what? They still hate it. It sorta makes one wonder why we don't do something they'd REALLY hate. I'll give you a hint what the answer is, if you don't already know: "we" don't really want to solve the problem either. "We" are in league with Medicine Incorporated. Whether "we" feel that they're really necessary and health care simply can't be provided without the rapacious for-profit-above-all motive, or that this just can't be stripped from the system and must be suffered, the result is the same.

We're not obliged to fawn over a giveaway to greedy death-profiteers, even if it DOES have some good things going for it. It helps some of the poor and it continues the fucking-over of the middle-aged. It also slams the door shut for awhile: this is what we get. We fight the propaganda war as it finds its legs, and we make the best of it, but THIS is it for awhile. THAT's a bummer, plain and simple.

Yeah, the trogs hate it. So what?
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Zomby Woof Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
42. That's been my take all along
When I saw McConnell whining incessantly on TV the other day, I knew that the bill, imperfections and misgivings and all that it has which has divided us, MUST have virtues worth perusing.

I know you have worked in the trenches, and are no poseur. Perhaps some of these people need to sit down with you for some sushi and sake. ;-)
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FrenchieCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 04:18 AM
Response to Original message
45. Right you are!
:headbang:
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
46. MOST people are against it.
Only about 30 to 40 percent are in favor of it, which is the same percentage you get in ANY poll about ANY issue including forced neutering of all adult males and mandatory spam consumption.
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secondwind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
48. I'M WITH YOU 100%!!! K&R
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TheKentuckian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
50. The Republicans would be against ANY bill, that's a lame yardstick
They don't have to be for it because we'll do the heavy lifting and take 100% of the heat for it. The system will need their votes to rape education so that effort will be more bipartisan but until they just absolutely cannot get enough Democratic votes they are free to be the party of no.

The Republicans are smart enough to let us hang ourselves.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
51. THE REPUBLICANS SUPPORTED A SURGE IN AFGHANISTAN.
What the fuck is your point?

Are you saying that we should pass a shitty bill because our "enemies" do not support it?

Mission Accomplished!
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freddie mertz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
52. The Pubs are playing us for suckers.
They know that when the mandates kick in, there will be an outbreak of populist anger.

Supporters of the bill almost NEVER mention these very same mandates in their public statements, which suggests that even THEY recognize this will be a problem.

Without some sort of public option, which the president hardly bothered to mention, let alone fight for, after July, these mandates are simply unsustainable.

The president was right about that, before he was wrong about it.
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Vinca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
53. If the Republicans took the time to read it, they'd probably love it.
Plenty of perks for the corporations, crumbs in four years time for the rest of us. But, as David Axelrod said, I should be thankful because as an older American I'll only have to pay 3 times the going rate.
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
54. The Republicans are against invading Canada. Yeah, very convincing.
Remember most Republicans are dumb as they come.
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Honeycombe8 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-21-09 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
55. They're against everything by the Dems. So what? Even if they liked it, they HAVE to act like
they don't.

The can't afford for the Dems to get any credit.

That's politics, for ya.

(In reality, this bill is close to the major points of McCain's and Hillary Clinton's bills.)
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