Two Thoughts About the OBL Discussions of Yesterday

This is for those who were concerned about displays of "blood lust" and jubilant celebration over the death of another -- even the death of a heinous criminal as OBL.

First, a Facebook friend had an EXCELLENT point. Perhaps what some are interpreting as "grave dancing" was simply the celebration of triumph over someone who caused so much pain and suffering to so many. The same celebration would have occurred with CAPTURE of OBL. If you felt jubilant and celebratory but perhaps had a twinge of discomfort about celebrating someone's death, seeing it from that lens may be helpful. That makes a lot of sense to me.

Of course, if you felt jubilant and had NO hesitation or feelings of being uncomfortable about it, I'm not judging that. :)

Which brings me to the second point.

Another brilliant FB friend also shared an excellent point. I wrote frequently yesterday -- here, there and everywhere -- that people were having many different reactions to the death of OBL. Not only do we not necessarily know what others were thinking or why they reacted as they did, I personally don't think many people understood it themselves. They really hadn't processed what it meant (plus, we Americans aren't the most self-reflective bunch on the planet as a whole). 9/11 affected all of us differently -- some very directly, others more indirectly -- but it did impact everyone in some way.

What was pointed out is that the myriad emotions -- and the evolution of emotions as the day went on -- is very reminiscent of 9/11 itself. If you can think back to how you felt on 9/12, there were a lot of emotions that evolved over time. How we reacted was very individual, based on very individual factors.

Same with this event.

So many people I care about deeply were very, very disturbed by how others reacted yesterday. Whether or not my sharing these two observations is comforting or not, I wanted to offer it for consideration. I just don't think there was as much overt, authentic "blood lust" as many feel there was, even if people were aggressively owning it as such.

There was a lot of raw emotion being displayed that needed to be processed -- and a lot of push-back to judgments about those emotions. I personally had no trouble stepping back, allowing it for what it was, without being overly concerned about it.

Had people started ransacking and setting fire to things, or attacking Muslims, for example, as an odd "victory" response, that would have been another matter altogether.

As always, it is my greatest hope that we can heal differences and find common ground in order unite with common a intent -- to create more compassionate, loving communities, to ease suffering, and to inject more joy into this human experience.

This was such a big event for Americans that it has the potential to be healing in many ways, so I offer this for your consideration in the hopes that we can move forward more gracefully. We always have so much "us" versus "them" scenarios going on, even within our community here. I think that harms more than it helps.

Just my personal observations and opinions, for what they're worth.....

:hi:

:grouphug:

It is almost certain that people would've celebrated had the President announced "Osama Bin Laden has been captured and is being indicted for the September 11th attacks."

:hi:

:hi:

it was the appearance and feeling of jingoism that it carried. If they had wanted to celebrate after he was given a proper trial and sentenced to a proper punishment instead of assassinated the way he was, then I would be fine with that. But celebrating the assassination of anyone, no matter their crimes, just does not sit right with me.

The dancing and shouting "USA! USA! USA!"..the people singing God Bless America and the National Anthem, just reminded me of a Collage football game, after the Home Team just BEAT the opposing team. It just left a very bad taste in my mouth.

That didn't sit well with many, myself included, but that was different from blood lust, imho.

:hi:

looked like a hockey playoff celebration to me.

I can't.

The one thing you never ever saw in a Samurai movie was the winner of a battle celebrating by making lots of noise, dancing, or the warriors sitting around drinking beer, and boasting of their prowess. Its something that wasn't done. The Bushido code was very clear...

Japan's No. 1 terrorist (responsible for the sarin gas attacks in Tokyo subways that killed a dozen people and injured thousands), I doubt that there will be any public dancing or "high fives".

He gave orders to that effect, the guards were to kill him if it seemed he was going to be captured, so all this "assassin" talk is not based in fact.

whether or not the primary objective was to capture him alive is a moot point. And besides, that isn't what my complaint is. My complaint is that people were in the streets celebrating the action like the above poster said, after winning a football game or something.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/20/alqaida.terrorism?INTCMP=SRCH

Osama bin Laden vowed never to be taken alive in an audiotape broadcast on a militant website today.

In the recording - which appeared to be a fuller version of a tape broadcast last month - the al-Qaida leader said the US military in Iraq had resorted to the same "barbaric" tactics used by the former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein.

"I have sworn to only live free. Even if I find bitter the taste of death, I don't want to die humiliated or deceived.

:sarcasm:

:eyes:

How about using those observation skills, though, to explain why so many (and not simply disruptors) are willing to believe that the entire capture/killing of OBL is a hoax the administration is perpetuating on the world. That the burial at sea is a "convenient" way to provide cover for the hoax.

What do you think? Why would long term DUers believe that of this administration?

That's a good question, and I really don't have any thoughtful insights, to be honest.

I just feel, having been here a while -- and being a skeptical person, by nature, myself -- that DU is a VERY jaded bunch, in general.

Often, for very good reason.

It's one thing to be a Fox News viewer, with ignorance being one's bliss. It's another to be a well-informed citizen and to be aware of the misdeeds and corruption throughout our politics, perpetuated by our media, etc.

The extreme distrust of the Bush Administration has, imho, carried over into The Obama Administration in large part because many don't feel Obama has made enough changes FROM the Bush Administration's policies.

I'm open to all possibilities, quite frankly. I may not agree with Obama as often as I'd like, but I definitely trust him more than I did Bush/Cheney.

I do understand that others simply don't. I hope he proves more and more wrong in their distrust.

As to the OBL thing being a hoax, logically I can't see why that would be. If it were closer to the elections, perhaps it would have been used for political gain. I just don't feel that's the case. It feels legit to me, as does the burial at sea. Logical reasons for that were posted yesterday.

So....:shrug:

And, yes, I do think the disappointments most of us have experienced with Obama--in terms of our expectations in 2008-- have a lot to do with our unwillingness to extend the benefit of the doubt that might be expected. That said, I don't quite understand the construct of the hoax theory--what would motivate Obama to do so, why now (so far out from the 2012 election as to be of limited usefulness), and how on a practical level it would even "work," given there so many that could blow a hoax as that wide open. :shrug:

The thing is, I'm not concerned in the least at displays of blood lust or at the jingoism. I was repulsed. That doesn't need to be fixed. It was perfectly appropriate to the situation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1021691

I thought it did a good job of describing, roughly, how the two groups felt here yesterday.

it actually prompted me to post what I did.

:hi:

I'd missed that one. It was a thoughtful piece.

"the celebration of triumph over someone who caused so much pain and suffering to so many. The same celebration would have occurred with CAPTURE of OBL."

Indeed. Thank you.

I thought some of the reaction was a little unseemly, personally. But for people to celebrate the death of a reviled enemy is a fairly human reaction. And while I'm not big on boorish, jingoistic flag-waving, it seems to me that doing so in celebration of the death of a mass murderer is a better excuse for it than most other occasions. It's not celebrating a bomb that killed many civilians, or a war, for example.

Let me add something else: many people on DU would rightly point to examples of anti-American demonstrations overseas and say that, while unseemly, they (a) don't reflect the views of everyone and (b) come about as a result of context, i.e. real grievances. Why wouldn't those some principles apply in this case? The reaction wasn't universal, and even if you don't agree with it, it was understandable.