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davidswanson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:25 AM
Original message
Osama bin Lynched
I'm going to give this speech tonight to a crowd of drunk young people. If I'm not back by morning, ask around if there have been any "Islamic burials."

About 10 years ago a bunch of psychotic killers crashed planes into buildings. A tall skinny guy who took credit said he was protesting the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia and US support for Israel's war on Palestinians. That wasn't exactly going to hold up in a court of law as a justification for mass-murder. But the U.S. government had already, before 9-11, turned down offers from the Taliban to put bin Laden on trial in a third country, and it turned those offers down again.

Instead, the U.S. president said he had no interest in bin Laden, but proceeded to encourage Americans to be afraid of their own shadows. He used that fear to help launch a war without end. We've now had nine-and-a-half years of pointless horrific murderous war in Afghanistan and eight years of the same in Iraq, plus a drone war in Pakistan, a new war in Libya, and smaller wars and special military operations in dozens of other countries.

We watched foreign looking people on television dancing in the streets and celebrating the crimes of 9-11 and we thought how evil and barbaric they must be. Knowing nothing about the decades our government had spent exploiting and occupying their countries, toppling their democratic leaders, and kicking in their doors, we assumed that these subhuman monsters were celebrating the killing of Americans because they just happened to dislike us or because their stupid religion told them to.

Of course, we used to have lynch mobs in this country. Ask the freedom riders who left for the deep south 50 years ago today. But we had outgrown that. We were not driven by blind vengeance. We were civilized. The reason we locked up far more people in prison than any other country and killed some of them was a purely rational calculation dealing with prevention, deterrence, and restitution. We weren't monsters. We didn't torture or cut people's heads off.

But those beasts that we started locking up in Guantanamo: they were a different story. They clearly could not be reasoned with. They had to be tied up like animals just to control them. Our government wouldn't do that to people if it didn't have to, so clearly it had to. To think otherwise would be inappropriate, disloyal, disobedient. It was best to think what we were told to think, and if most of those people in Guantanamo turned out to be innocent, well at least they weren't real people like us.

And so we gave up 800 years of civil rights. We tore up the Magna Carta. Because people should have the right to a trial only when the government doesn't tell us they are guilty. We gave up our opposition to torture. We abandoned our trepidation regarding aggressive wars. We sat silent as President Obama declared his right to assassinate Americans and threw a whistleblower, naked, into a 6' x 12' cell in Virginia. We asked Congress to obey the president and the media to cheer for our team. And we watched lots of movies.

The cool thing about movies is that torture works. Completely unlike reality, the torture victim always tells the truth in movies. And killing people works great too. It doesn't disturb the killer at all or have any nasty side effects. People backing the same cause as the victim never appear as the credits are rolling. Happily ever after is what comes from killing people. The best thing for us to do, unless we're busy shopping, is to cheer and scream like deranged maniacs whose team just won the super bowl.

And so, after 10 years of shredding the rule of law, hiring mercenary armies, invading helpless unarmed countries, causing the deaths of over a million people, and learning to love torture, all of this warfare did absolutely nothing to locate Osama bin Laden, who was hiding near the capital of a country to which we had decided to allow nuclear bombs and to give billions of dollars. We fought a war in Iraq on the pretense that Iraq was giving bin Laden nukes, while bin Laden was hiding out in a nuclear nation and almost certainly with the knowledge of that nation's military. Pakistan is now on call should Saudi Arabia need any troops to kill its own people, the United States having heeded bin Laden's demand and pulled its troops out to deploy them elsewhere in the region -- a region in which our government supports and arms dictators until they are nonviolently overthrown or, as in Libya, a rebel force led by a CIA stooge can be backed instead. Only massive ignorance can continue to ask "Why do they hate us?"

And so, after nearly a decade, our government bothered to look for bin Laden, found him, and murdered him. But what choice did they have? A truly fair trial would always involve the risk of acquittal. A semi-fair trial would have risked bringing up undesirable topics, such as the US failure to prevent 9-11, our decades' old support for bin Laden, bin Laden's evasion of the US in 2001 and ever since, bin Laden's reasons for 9-11, and the question of precedent. If we gave bin Laden a semi-fair trial, how would we explain denying one to so many other people? And a truly unfair military trial would have made the United States look even worse. As a CIA guy told me on the radio yesterday: killing him was "cleaner."

Who else used to talk about killing people in terms of cleanliness, I forget? But that's what we do now. We don't try people as we tried the Nazis. We don't lock people up and torture them. We kill them. It's cleaner. And then we dance in the streets cheering for the killing. But killing Saddam Hussein didn't bring peace. Killing Muammar Gadaffi will not bring peace any more than killing his children and grandchildren has. Killing Osama bin Laden will bring no peace and is no justice. Nonviolently overthrowing the governments of Tunisia and Egypt and Yemen points us in a better direction, albeit one we can't picture from Hollywood movies in our heads.

When I wrote two days ago along the lines that I've just been speaking, objecting to the celebration of anyone's murder, I received more positive responses by Email than I've seen in a very long time, if ever. My article was posted on more websites and translated into more languages than I've seen in a long time too. Veterans for Peace endorsed it as a statement of their organization. There are those who understand that life is not a movie, that the leading cause of US deaths in Afghanistan is suicide, that we cannot continue in this drunken fantasy without destroying everything and everyone we care about.

Enough is enough.

End the war without end.

Bring the troops and contractors and mercenaries home.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
1. Not only is the title offensive
but so is this digusting statement.

"And so, after nearly a decade, our government bothered to look for bin Laden, found him, and murdered him."

U.N. rights boss asks U.S. for facts on bin Laden killing

<...>

It was always clear that taking bin Laden alive was likely to be difficult, she said, noting that U.S. authorities had stated that they intended to arrest him if possible.

"This was a complex operation and it would be helpful if we knew the precise facts surrounding his killing. The United Nations has consistently emphasized that all counter-terrorism acts must respect international law," Pillay said in a statement issued in response to a Reuters request.

In Washington, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder defended as lawful Tuesday the U.S. operation to go into Pakistan that resulted in the death of bin Laden and the taking of his body.

"If he was captured and brought before a court, I have no doubt he would have been charged with the most serious crimes, including the mass murder of civilians that took place on 9/11, which were planned and systematic and in my view amounted to crime against humanity," said Pillay, a former U.N. war crimes judge.


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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. then would you call it an execution?
Edited on Wed May-04-11 12:09 PM by G_j
does that word offend you also? What would work?
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Obama lynched Osama
Can I get an Amen!

Not only sick of fucking racist drivel, but the bin Laden sympathizers are competing strong with the wingnuts.

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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. is there an answer to my question
somewhere in that?
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
20. No. n/t
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. bin Laden was expecting to be martyred.
We pretty much did everything he wanted us to do to some degree or another. Really kind of amazing. Recognizing that fact is no such thing as being a "bin Laden sympathizer," or a wingnut. We won't get particularly near his ultimately intended result, because ultimately it was an insane religious ideological vision, but we sure have tried to barrel toward it as fast as we can the past ten years.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #17
89. bin Laden
was expecting to live out the rest of his life in comfort, just like every other fucking Saudi prince does. Bush was always willing to let him do that. WAKE THE FUCK UP!
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #89
94. Telling me to wake the fuck up.
LOL
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #94
105. Not necessarily you
came out the wrong way. Bin laden didn't want to be a martyr. He didn't want to live in a cave. Far from it. That's the misconception/propaganda the Bush administration needed to push so they had the excuse that they couldn't find him. They never wanted to touch the guy. We were sold a line and most of us swallowed it whole. Bin Laden was one of them. Rich, Saudi, MIC crap.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
34. Ever bother to read Reuters? If so, you might want to read the
Edited on Wed May-04-11 12:45 PM by coalition_unwilling
following and consider dismounting from your moral high horse:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-kill-idUSTRE7413H220110502

If LBJ says the North Vietnamese attacked the USS Maddox in international waters, why it must be true, because LBJ is a Democrat and Democrats never, ever lie. At least not about stuff that might cost lives.

:sarcasm:

Welcome to my Ignore list.
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. "following and consider dismounting from your moral high horse:"

"Welcome to my Ignore list."


Fuck your ignored list



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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #38
43. i see the OP was warmly received at DKos...
:rofl:
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ProSense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. Yes, I particularly enjoyed
Edited on Wed May-04-11 01:11 PM by ProSense
this comment

I am stunned at your ignorance

Of course, we used to have lynch mobs in this country. Ask the freedom riders who left for the deep south 50 years ago today. But we had outgrown that. We were not driven by blind vengeance.


Perhaps you are unaware of the meaning of the word vengeance.

Vengeance (Noun): vengeance - the act of taking revenge (harming someone in retaliation for something harmful that they have done)

Lynchings were not committed in the South because blacks had done a damned thing to harm someone. They were committed because people just hated blacks. They were done for racism's sake alone.

What happened to Bin Laden, an actual mass murderer, who was determined to continue murdering Americans as an act of war, is not at all comparable.

Your using lynchings as a comparison is outrageously offensive. Your comparison suggests either that Bin Laden was a poor innocent, or that blacks who were lynched were mass murderers and we should have given them trials and locked them up instead of lynching.

I've HR'd. Perhaps you'd consider deleting.


this one:

And
On the 50th anniversary of the Freedom Rides, you engage in this bullshit? No, really, where the fuck do you get off?

You clearly have no understanding of the word "lynched." I suggest you read my upcoming CIJK diary in a couple of weeks. It'll make gruesomely clear exactly what lynching is - and it's NOTHING like what happened to bin Laden.

Privilege at its finest. What a fucking disgrace.


50 years ago today, 'Freedom Riders' risked their lives against cowards to smash Jim Crow

Fifty years later, the Freedom Riders are being invoked to sympathize with bin Laden's death.



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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. yowza!
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. ROTFL!
:thumbsup:
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sometimes you have to ease into the truth.....
Edited on Wed May-04-11 12:00 PM by hlthe2b
I hope you'll include a fairly long preamble before you get to the truth of the matter... Americans have been weaned on NOT knowing the truth, as though our entire society was overseen by some kind of Jack Nicholson father figure.

Good luck (and if logic fails, DUCK)


Mandatory qualifier.... I do not fault the administration for taking out OBL. I look upon it as the same conflicted view I have of Truman giving the go ahead to use the nuclear bomb to avoid more months/years/loss of life to end WWII. I understand your very black and white approach to the issue, but I am afraid that I do live in "shades of gray." Knowing then, what we know now about nuclear bombs, I might well have thought differently, but history doesn't work that way.... :shrug:

I also do not refer to what happened as a "lynching." A justifiable killing while resisting arrest--or an intentional execution... I have no way of knowing which, but it was not a "lynching."
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oneshooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
3.  It was no more murder than the death of Isoroku Yamamoto
as ordered by FDR in 1943.

Oneshooter
Armed and Livin in Texas
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JohnnyLib2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. I've been wondering about precedents for "kill" orders.

Can't come up with any in my post WWII lifetime, or at least any made so public. Does that seem correct?
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
31. Well, it sort of is
Japan attacked us at Pearl Harbor. We knew it was Japan because of the meatballs on their planes. After the carnage, the wreckage was inspected and we knew what was what.

On 9/11, someone flew something in to the World Trade Centers and the Pentagon. Unlike Pearl Harbor, ALL evidence was whisked away before it could be inspected. Junior Bush fought tooth and nail to keep ANY investigation from taking place. Imagine if you will, the largest crime scene in modern history and the President doesn't want to know who did it. This guys so fucking smart he already knows even though Bin laden said he didn't do it so yeah, it's sort of different,.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
58. and Yamamoto was a much more sympathetic figure. n/t
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Matariki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
5. Excellent, excellent post. Thank you. n/t
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
6. well done
& the truth hurts
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sharp_stick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:41 AM
Response to Original message
7. Poor Osama
he was killed by the mean nasty Navy Seals.

Not very good, poorly written, poorly sourced, and a real waste of open mic night time that could be better taken up with a rendition of Jessies Girl.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #7
41. Pointing out the consequences of U.S. behavior for US
is not sympathy for bin Laden.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
66. You lost credibility by deeming the post "poorly written." It assuredly is not.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. You are correct.
The proper term is 'drivel'.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
100. Actually, it has a number of problems
It reads a lot like a political Mitch Albom: dependent on emotionally loaded language and lacking logical follow-through in several key places.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:50 AM
Response to Original message
10. so now you trivialize the word "lynch". Highly offensive. Lynching is a specific term
with highly specific meaning in American history.

Lynchings were pre-planned hunting parties where white men went out looking for a black man to hang.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. definition:
lynch (lnch)
tr.v. lynched, lynch·ing, lynch·es
To punish (a person) without legal process or authority, especially by hanging, for a perceived offense or as an act of bigotry.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Lynch
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. yeah, it figures you'd be an apologist for using that word. Sick.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. just posted a dictionary definition
Edited on Wed May-04-11 11:59 AM by G_j
sorry for the inconvienience...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. I acknowledge the legitimate sensitivity to the word
that is why I asked up thread for a word or description that might work better for some people.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #13
85. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #13
108. it figures?
what is that about?
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. Lynching, killing people via mob action... often assoc. w/white supremacy.
Edited on Wed May-04-11 11:57 AM by KittyWampus
Lynching, the practice of killing people by extrajudicial mob action, occurred in the United States chiefly from the late 18th century through the 1960s.

It is often associated with white supremacy in the South after the American Civil War. The granting of civil rights to freedmen in the Reconstruction era (1865–77) aroused anxieties among white citizens, who came to blame African Americans for their own wartime hardship, economic loss, and forfeiture of social privilege. African Americans, and whites active in the pursuit of equal rights, were frequently lynched in the South during Reconstruction, but lynchings reached a peak in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when Southern states enacted a series of segregation and Jim Crow laws to reestablish white supremacy. Notable lynchings of civil rights workers during the 1960s in Mississippi contributed to galvanizing public support for the Civil Rights Movement and civil rights legislation.

The Tuskegee Institute has recorded 3,446 lynchings of blacks and 1,297 lynchings of whites between 1882 and 1968.<1> Southern states created new constitutions between 1890 and 1908, with provisions that effectively disenfranchised most blacks, as well as many poor whites. People who were not permitted to vote were also not permitted to serve on juries, further excluding them from the political process.

African Americans mounted resistance to lynchings in numerous ways. Intellectuals and journalists encouraged public education, actively protesting and lobbying against lynch mob violence and government complicity in that violence. The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP), as well as numerous other organizations, organized support from white and black Americans alike. African-American women's clubs, such as the Association of Southern Women for the Prevention of Lynching, raised funds to support the work of public campaigns, including anti-lynching plays. Their petition drives, letter campaigns, meetings and demonstrations helped to highlight the issues and combat lynching.<2> In the Great Migration, extending in two waves from 1910 to 1970, 6.5 million African Americans left the South, primarily for northern and mid-western cities.

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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. I have to agree with KittyWampus... This term is inappropriate to the situation.
Perhaps he was purposely executed or perhaps he was killed resisting being taken. Either way, it was not a "lynching."

As I stated above, there is a lot of truth vis-a-vis our history with Al Qaeda and Bin Laden that people should not forget, given the need to rethink our foreign policy and never repeat some of those mistakes. But, I still can not use those mistakes to condemn the administration's having dealt with such a horrendous figure. Had we been able to successfully assassinate Hitler once it became clear what he was up to, I would not have been able to oppose that either.

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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #16
40. Oh, come on. It was an extra-judicial (outside the due process of law)
Edited on Wed May-04-11 12:58 PM by coalition_unwilling
execution. The term "lynch" is being used figuratively by the OP, not literally, to refer to the act of executing someone without first giving them their absolute right to due process.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
47. Stating a term is being used "figuratively," doesn't mean it SHOULD
be used. It unnecessarily diverts from the points the OP is trying to make.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
64. agreed. n/t
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TBF Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
11. Recommended. nt
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
19. you really love the schlock shock shit
that combined with your pedestrian thinking and turgid prose combine to make an unparalleled shit sandwich.
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
21. TLDNR
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:08 PM
Response to Original message
23. Oh, geez. Please stop questioning authority, will ya?
Edited on Wed May-04-11 12:13 PM by Zorra
It makes me think, and then my head hurts again.

I'll be sooo glad when American Idol comes on.

Oh, yeah, and these long explanatory posts?

Like reading a Dickens or Steinbeck book, and you know, whatever, these books are like sooo long and there's just no point to them.

You really need to get yourself a TV, David.

This is not normal.
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
25. Dalai Lama: Bin Laden’s death may have been justified
I find this interesting.... Not meaning to incite, though perhaps to provoke thought on this situation that readily lends to so much conflicted feeling....


The Dalai Lama—the face of Tibetan Buddhism and a religious leader known for espousing compassion and peace—said the U.S. move to kill Osama bin Laden may have been necessary.

His Holiness answered a question about bin Laden’s death while speaking at the University of Southern California,

As the leader of Tibetan Buddhism, the 14th Dalai Lama says he practices compassion to such an extent that he tries to avoid swatting mosquitoes “when my mood is good and there is no danger of malaria,” sometimes watching with interest as they swell with his blood.

Yet, in an appearance Tuesday at USC, he appeared to suggest that the United States was justified in killing Osama bin Laden.
http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2011/05/dalai-lama-bin-laden%E2%80%99s-death-may-be-justified/
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Gunny1 Donating Member (81 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Very interesting - maybe threadworthy in and of itself
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Looks like someone beat me to it...
;)
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #28
46. Yes I did !!
Edited on Wed May-04-11 01:01 PM by AsahinaKimi
:D great minds think alike!
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Proud to say so...
;)
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. The "malaria" reference is the tell. nt
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #25
102. The headline seems to be very misleading.
Edited on Wed May-04-11 11:58 PM by Hissyspit
Seems to come more from the newspaper writer's head than from what the Dalai Lama said.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=439&topic_id=1037144
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cyberswede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
26. I have to agree that the title is offensive.
It sounds like something a RWer would use.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well said. K&R
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:22 PM
Response to Original message
30. Do you really believe this or do you write this to help sell books?

:shrug:
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
33. i hope they're not paying for the privilege.
unrec
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
35. k & r
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
36. Hashtag...
#NotIntendedToBeAFactualStatement

Sid
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Blue-Jay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:46 PM
Response to Original message
37. ugh.
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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
39. Garbage.
:thumbsdown:
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LostInAnomie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
42. Ah, yes... mental masturbation is fun.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #42
67. A term that can be applied to any and all posts on the Internet(s)!
Yes, mine and yours included!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
44. They were not "psychotic."
Quite the opposite.

Other than that, I both enjoyed and agreed with this essay. But I know that it is an important point, and it is extremely important to understand that these young men were not psychotic.
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Bluenorthwest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
45. I think it is poor form to post loaded language and refuse to
discuss that language, as the OP so often does here. It is rude, and makes it clear that this is just another advert for his products, this one with racially sensitive language.
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DevonRex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
49. Filthy dog whistle language. And you sympathize with a mass murderer.
There are no words to convey the disgust I felt reading your post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. give the brother a break. writing courses and an editor aren't free!
Edited on Wed May-04-11 01:24 PM by dionysus
but sorely needed in this instance...
;)
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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. Why do you want him banned? He's just posting a point of view
This is a DISCUSSION forum and you are gonna see things you disagree with.

Personally I thought it was a fantastic post, but I'm sure others will disagree with me. That tends to happen in a discussion forum.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PeaceNikki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. This ^
:applause:
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #60
98. This >
"questioning the character or motives of other DU members; discussing DU members rather than ideas."
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. You are correct, all of his OP's tend to be hit and runs.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
96. He's a featured writer here.
DU has always had featured writers here. They actively solicited them in the early years of the site.

This is ad hominem crap.
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SidDithers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. +1...
Well said.

Sid
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #65
97. Bullshit.
You don't like his ideas. Argue his ideas.

"questioning the character or motives of other DU members; discussing DU members rather than ideas."


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Cali_Democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
69. Then you should alert the mods
Implying that he's a troll that posts hit and run flame bait shouldn't be done IMO.

Just hit alert and leave it at that.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #59
95. I see him reply often.
I imagine if the owners and administrators of this site don't want David Swanson as a Featured Journal on the front page of the site, they will stop giving David Swanson Featured Journal status. They have plenty of ability to act on things that they frown on.
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mountainlion55 Donating Member (302 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
54. Excellent post!
You know What frickin gets me is every Tuesday morning when I walk by my old H.S. there are kids wearing ROTC uniforms and junior CEO suits Just frickin great another generation of vampire banksters and MIC warmongers. I was reading some post on DU when killed our CIA created monster (OBL) And a person pointed out the gulf of tonkin incident and the response was what was the gulf of tonkin. Does anybody read history anymore or don't they make an I-Phone app for that.:smoke:
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
56. What an offensive title.
You should change it.
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A-Schwarzenegger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:37 PM
Response to Original message
57. Who believes the following would ever have come about & resulted in a sane & just trial?
"But the U.S. government had already, before 9-11, turned down offers from the Taliban to put bin Laden on trial in a third country, and it turned those offers down again."

Anybody believe the Taliban would or could have ever done this,
and that, say, Saudi Arabia would have applied justice to Osama?
Anybody? Bueller?
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Bobbie Jo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
62. Offensive analogy.
Stunning that you thought this was post-worthy.

You've been sitting under the tree a bit too long. I'm sure the echo chamber thought it was teh awesome!!
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Hell Hath No Fury Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
68. You're taking some hits here --
but I appreciate the attempt. :hi: The 9/11 Osama Bin Laden mythology has become fully formed and accepted, and those who attempt to shine a light around the darker corners are to be ridiculed and marginalized.



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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. I'd wager almost everyone posting on this thread is aware of the Bin Laden history-
Though I'm sure you like to think you're so very more well informed than the rest of us calling the OP'er out for his crap.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
71. Provocative post! I look forward to more
in the future. I confess normally these long screeds I don't bother reading, but this one I took notice, mainly because of all the controversy and blowback you received for it. That gets me interested, and I wasn't disappointed.

Keep it up!

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:28 PM
Response to Original message
72. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. I have a friend who occasionally preaches
In one of his sermons, he ran down a list of really bad things that go on in the United States. The number of people we lock up in prison, economic inequality, numbers of young single women giving birth and raising children alone, hunger, poverty, and so forth. He rounded off with, "And most of you don't give a fuck about any of that. And what's worse is that more of you are offended by the fact that I just said 'fuck' than by anything else I just talked about."

It's amusing in a wry way to see the outrage over Swanson's use of the word "lynch" than by the lawless action that spurred his using it.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #73
75. And in doing so invalidates any point he was trying to make.
Same as OP has done.

Unrec the drivel.
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gratuitous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #75
76. Good to see you set up an icon of a word
Perhaps you should consider changing your handle?
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. It's for sale for the right price.
Make an offer.
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LiberalLovinLug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Look over there......the word FUCK....and there the word LYNCH!
Meanwhile your country is sinking into lawlessness, murder, torture and cover-up

But hey, someone said some bad words.
:shrug:


LOL
you made gratuitous' point beautifully.
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Ikonoklast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Hyperbole is your closest friend.
And there was no point to be made, just an anecdote that was unremarkable in any way.
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Robb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. You're right, race-baiting is nothing compared to extrajudicial killing.
All relative, I agree.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 05:46 AM
Response to Reply #82
103. Except that the race-baiting in this case refers to extra-judicial killing, and...
Edited on Thu May-05-11 05:48 AM by stevenleser
the "extra-judicial killing" interestingly enough, may not be extra-judicial killing.

Consider that Osama bin Laden TWICE sent out public declarations of war against the United States and followed that up with multiple acts of war. Are we not at war with bin Laden and the group he created (Al Qaeda) and is he not a combattant?
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
80. David means well, and his book Daybreak is excellent. But he and others in the same segment of the
progressive left (I am a progressive too, but a pragmatic one), routinely jump the shark and make bizarre statements like this one because they have lost perspective.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #80
92. Without a Strong Left the DEM party will have no counter. And, David
Edited on Wed May-04-11 09:29 PM by KoKo
expresses the views that those of us who strongly opposed Iraq Invasion, that killed so many and left so many others richer for it and the misguided occupation of Afghanistan for 10 years going..which sees no end in sight. Now we are Killing Dictator's Child and Children in Libya.

We must speak up about this ...otherwise we are just mainsream DLC Democrats who are really what used to be ...years ago...mainstream Republicans.

The Repugs listen to their Right Wing. The Democrats don't listen to us, anymore. We are "Fucking Retards" and "crazy drug users" according to our Presindent's spokespersons. This President that me and others of us who are against these illegal invasions and occupations doesn't listen to us. But, Repugs always listen to their Right of their party.

We ask for something for our activism, votes, loyalty and money we give. I think it's very reasonable to expect a return on our investment.
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stevenleser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Virtually everything you wrote is an exaggeration or lacks context. Same problem we always see
with folks in this segment of the party. You illustrated my point perfectly.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
81. Thank you David
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Liquorice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
83. Oh boy. This reminds me of when Bill Maher said the
terrorists who murdered innocent Americans on 9/11 were not the cowards, instead it was Americans who were the cowards for using cruise missiles, unlike those brave men who rode the planes right into the building. What a load of tone-deaf, crazy-thinking, American-hating BS.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
84. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #84
90. truth, my ass. the op is opinion and it's full of factual errors
I'm not cheering the death of bin-Laden and I have mixed feelings about the raid, but the op is garbage.

like your post. and that's my opinion. at least i know the difference between fucking opinion and fact.
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PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:15 PM
Response to Original message
86. Bin Laden
set his own course many years ago. Trial? By who? He was an enemy of the state. He made that choice. The war is over. Let it go now.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
PhillySane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. The war is over
stop fighting it. Bin laden declared himself a combatant. He was killed. I don't know the details and neither do you. All is fair in love and war. It's over. let it go.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 09:22 PM
Response to Original message
91. Kick.. War Without End...is not a good thing for health of America.
:kick:
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Puregonzo1188 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
99. I really wish bin Laden had been brought to justice. Regardless of what happened he wasn't. And
given the information that's flowing out even ex-intelligence people I know are saying it looks very much like what happened could have been a war crime. I'm reserving my judgement till more facts are none, though I don't think we will ever get the truth. Of course, none of the hyperpartisan Democrats first international law people are going to ever accept that.
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MilesColtrane Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 11:45 PM
Response to Original message
101. OK, I'm done with your scribblings.
You owe lynching victims and their families an apology.

If you do come to your senses and apologize, it's too bad I'll never see it.

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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 06:04 AM
Response to Original message
104. Sorry, not lynched
individuals who lead or are involved in a movement that kills our people and our troops, which you can have no reasonable doubt he did, are subject to being shot and killed by the military. This is the price of attending that dance. He repeatedly volunteered for this outcome.

Killing him there was probably in fact "cleaner" than killing him later. Once detained, he was just as dead either way.

Killing him does not bring peace and justice, as killing people never does this, regardless of who they are or what their crimes might have been. This however, has nothing to do with this event. This was not about peace and justice, this was about exorcism. They tried lots of "shock and awe" gun camera footage, it did not do it. They gave us Saddam, but this did not do it. This time was never going to be over and consigned to history until OBL was dead.

I don't approve, but I believe I understand. Lynching in the old south was never an act of war against a warring party. It was a symbol of racial dominance over the repressed. There are no parallels here.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 10:25 AM
Response to Original message
106. Lynchings often included torture and the slow version of hanging.
I don't think he was technically executed either.

Killed would be a very accurate term to use. Shot may work as well.
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Larry Ogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 10:31 AM
Response to Original message
107. I think people who understand psychopathology would agree more with the OP.
Edited on Thu May-05-11 10:50 AM by Larry Ogg
As apposed to the sports fan world-view adjusted to form a political opinion.

Adding that, Psychopaths in their quest for fame, fortune, and idol worshipers: like to play king of the hill. And in the process, millions of innocent people are slaughtered; such has been the affect of American foreign policy in third world countries.

But America’s “psychopathic behavior” towards poor people living in defenseless countries, is wrapped in the façade of noble causes and idealism. We’re not slaughtering innocent people, looting their resources, or supporting corporate friendly tyrannical dictators; we are spreading democracy.

But when innocent victims of American intervention need a champion to ward of the invading hordes of usurpers, they turn to those who can kill without a second thought. And the best candidate for such a job is, most likely, just anther psychopath.

So when you get at the core of war, its psychopath verses psychopath, and the innocent victims on both sides of the conflict, (as if it’s a big sporting event) make heroes out of those who beat the drums of war, and kill without conscience. And on both sides of the conflict, the poor get poorer and the rich psychopaths get richer.

The world is better off, with one less psychopath in it, but what about the ones who live in mansions throughout our Nation, such as the Bin Laden family friend who lives in Crawford Texas. Just because a psychopath is American grown, corporately owned, waves a flag and has the pretense of being on our side, doesn’t make the world or our country a safer place to live.


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drokhole Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu May-05-11 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #107
109. Holy Santa Claus shit, that was awesome...
Edited on Thu May-05-11 09:38 PM by drokhole
...I just ordered a book about the aforementioned psychotic family that will probably piss me off something special:

http://www.amazon.com/Family-Secrets-Americas-Invisible-Government/dp/1608190064/ref=wl_it_dp_o?ie=UTF8&coliid=I166ZH6OB579RT&colid=2LCJN6JPPY4OV
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