Is there any part of the general DU "groupthink" that you disagree with?

I think generally there is a group consensus on a large variety of issues. But is there anything in particular anybody feels they are an outlier on?

A similar topic was discussed on Reddit (http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/h58y2/this_will_get_downvoted_to_hell_and_back_but_im/) which views that, at least IMHO, are similar patterns to here.

I, for one, feel at odds with many people here over nonimmigrant visas. I think there is quite a bit of (unwarranted) animosity towards Hs and Ls. Does anyone else think they disagree with the general groupthink here?

it's utterly dishonest to claim it does. Ugh.

I didn't say they were fully equivalent terms. Enlighten me.

From your link: " Group members try to minimize conflict and reach a consensus decision without critical evaluation of alternative ideas or viewpoints."

Firstly... I'm not sure that I buy that there is even consensus on all that many issues. More importantly though, I don't know which issues could be said to have reached a consensus without critical evaluation of alternative ideas... for fuck's sake, there are some of us who aren't even convinced that the Op to kill bin Laden was a good idea. If there're alternative ideas being argued on that point... it argues against the presence of Groupthink...

Anyways here is the problem, and its not with the individual workers. Why do corporations need to import soo many workers when the unemployment level is soo high?

65,000? That's a drop in the bucket.

Glad you brought up that "drop in the bucket" because it's not. Look at all the jobs in the US that have been outsourced to India from call centers, financial services, and IT. Its no drop in the bucket my friend....

Not only that, when you outsource one job, there are many ripple effects on other businesses.

Outsourcing has nothing to do with immigrants coming HERE to work in companies located in the US. I feel for you, but this is not the war you want to wage.

Not a war I want to wage? First of all, its not a war, this is a discussion of policy which is the purpose of this board. Ok in some ways outsourcing and H1s are "different", but the end result is the same.

I am not here to change your opinion and you wont change mine. And this is a issue I will continue to work on as long as it if affects the lively hood of my family and other legal american workers.

If the end result is the same it is because we make it extremely difficult for Hs to get immigrant visas.

In 2008 a nationwide study found that 13% were fraudulent.13 percent! out of 65,000, out of a nationwide workforce of HOW MANY?
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/oct2008/db2008108_844949.htm

I agree. Outsourcing is bad. Hs are not.

They drive down wages and make it harder for citizens to get jobs. How many IT people who are citizens are unemployed? And they want to raise the number AGAIN?

H1-Bs are not citizens. They have to do that separately.

I would ask you not to call people 'chief.' as a descendant of an American Indian, I really find it insulting.

"They drive down wages and make it harder for citizens to get jobs."

Prove it.

And by the way, the U.S. Workers that are protected by the H-1B safeguards include LPRs too.

http://www.informationweek.com/news/201000479

http://www.pcworld.com/article/163383/hiring_h1b_visa_workers_trims_us_tech_workers_wages.html

"H-1B safeguards" Don't make me laugh. What safeguards? The corporations get away with importing cheap labor because of this program.

There's a misconception that the H-1B cap is currently set to let in just 65,000 guest workers annually. In reality, tens of thousands more H-1Bs are issued because of various exemptions. For example, educational institutions and nonprofits are allowed to bring 27,500 foreign workers into the United States each year above and beyond the 65,000 cap. An additional 20,000 H-1B visas annually are allocated to U.S.-educated foreign workers with advanced degrees. Indeed, the USCIS approved 117,000 H-1B visas in 2005, and the number has been as high as 125,000, according to data released by the Government Accountability Office (GAO) in a report to Congress in June 2006.

http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/menuitem.5af9bb95919f35e66f614176543f6d1a/?vgnextoid=4b7cdd1d5fd37210VgnVCM100000082ca60aRCRD&vgnextchannel=73566811264a3210VgnVCM100000b92ca60aRCRD

Please.

They bid out work at HALF of what my S/Os company does.

Why? because they pay the workers next to nothing.

I'm thinking you are making this up.

Not all H-1s are Indians. It's disingenuous for you to present it so.

explain to me what you think "DU groupthink" is and I will be more specific.

Sometimes I think contradictory things. Sometimes I even change my mind.

The only way to find out if anyone on the planet agrees with you is to say what you believe, not what you think other people may believe.

Common Principles: health care for all with no insurers taking citizen's wealth
Groupthink: If you don't agree with Obama's siding with the Republicans on Education than you want President Palin!11!!!

But I think that people get shouted down too often, too quickly. The immigrant visas are but one example.

But if someone starts a thread saying that income above $1 million per year *should* be taxed at 98% they tend to get a lot of recs.

Now, I have issues with how Monsanto is USING the technology, but that does not mean I am opposed to GMO crops in principle.

GMOs are going to be what allows us to feed our growing global population.

--at least without huge expensive inputs of energy and raw materials.

I'm a Christian, and I see comments and threads that make me wonder if we're welcome here.

and it's a big problem on reddit too. But to be sure, if it wasn't for the Christian Left, Dems would not win ANY elections, at any level.

you just outed yourself.
I had my suspicions to this point but yeah.
have a pizza.

because I actually know some personally.

:evilgrin:

Stereotyping sucks.

Not all Republicans are evil racist bastards.


And not all Democrats are Saints in human form.


;)

Some are also cowardly authoritarians.

Other than that they are hateful bigots. Why else would they be TeaPubliKlans dedicated to extracting from the poor and working folks, destruction of civil liberties, and direct opposition of civil rights?

Making excuses for willfully evil outcomes because you call the scum friends and relatives is a cop out.

They are responsible for the policies they support tooth and fucking nail as are we, which is why I stay on our crooks and liars so hard.

or something along those lines.
me smells a rat, a sewer rat of the freeper kind from the OP.
after all, the more interesting question is what do you actually agree with.
this asshat comes off acting like aw always lock step about everything.
I say give the jerk a pizza and lets move on.

"Mr spok, set phazers to frappe!"

nt

Bush "won", the rest of us lost.

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'inb4:go back to free republic.'

You said it, not me!

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That is minor, compared with your implication that people who have different political views to yourself should have their citizenship or loyalties questioned.

Maybe 'Trump' (birther) was too mild a criticism. You actually sounded more like Joe McCarthy.

And if you post such vile right-wing viewpoints on a progressive board, expect to be attacked, whoever you're saying it about.

Thats rich.
Loyalties questioned? Absolutely.
Problem?




I should know better than to discuss any deeper issues with you.

check my profile, see that I live in Switzerland, and demand to see my papers (and perhaps collect DNA and and an iris scan) please know that I'm a US citizen with little tolerance for bigotry. Your post says more about your own character than about any concern you may have wished to spotlight.

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who don't even live here in America.
ftw

I will do the same.

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with which I do not agree; for instance I'm still pro-nuclear power, I do not believe obese people are helpless victims of food additives, and I don't think all American cars are crap.

I don't agree with the Obama loyalists who think if you disagree with anything he does then you must be a traitor or not a good Democrat. I don't agree with the Obama super-fan club members that whatever he does must be the right decision and shouldn't be questioned. Its amazing how many of them fall in line and back up any decision he makes 100% as if its always the correct and right thing to do.

I don't agree with other general things like a previous reply mentioned, that people who are republicans are all scum, because some of my best friends happen to be republicans, and I know differently. It is very simple minded to think all republicans must be dumb or bad people. I don't agree that its a good thing to do to have a bully mindset and try and think that I have all the answers when it comes to spirituality and religion, its the height of arrogance and ignorance in my opinion to think you know all the answers.

I don't agree that principle is something to be thrown away in favor of being pragmatic based on voting, if someone thinks voting for their principles is paramount, then good for them, I have no problem with it. I don't agree that we as liberals always have to settle for the lesser evil, because that attitude will always lead to crumbs. Only by thinking big and boldly will anything really change in our current politics. I say this regarding things such as if someone says "National Health care like Canada or England system? Impossible in America! You better settle for the Obama compromise, best we can do" No, its not impossible, only that you think its impossible. Its very possible, just will take some time and work to get the population to accept it and want it. A real visionary leader could get it done.

We are a small group:fistbump:

I partially agree with you ... my disagreement is not so much how religion is "treated" ... it is hoe those of faith are perceived or characterized .... if you are here ...you are liberal, regardless of religious faith.

synonym for anyone of a religious faith.

.... and I despise the "religiously insane" ... but I have no problem differentiating them from people of faith.

have a god given right to force me by law into something that at the moment is not against the law, like my living in sin with the SO who I have no intentions on marrying nor does she want to be married again. Or want to force school kids to pray in class or throw out evolution for whatever that mud man nonsense is. Reality is I'm neither pro religion or anti religion, until its in my face I think very little about religion. What I do find amusing is when SO starts spewing some twisted up religious crap that she heard someone spew, SO has never had religion forced on her as a child so she knows little but bits and pieces. Whereas I had religion jammed down my throat from birth to I was 18.

Here at DU there is a definite and justified disdain for religious "leaders" who use religion to justify their misogyny, islamaphobia, and homo-phobic ideas.


Pretty Basic!

Using the term "IMaginary Sky Daddy" Is pretty offensive. And not uncommon here on DU.

is another one.
Believe or don't believe, it doesn't matter to me. But if you don't, there is no need to belittle those that do.

was the proper name for that entity. For both believers and non-believers. If I am mistaken, please enlighten me.

:spray:

:wtf:

:rofl:

And I'm glad too.

I've been around. I've seen the threads.

Being gay, or the wrong religion, being too smart, or not faithful enough.

if your crutch works for you BULLY for you.
I am genuinely glad that you are capable of relinquishing part of your free will.
I understand the freedom that can give, the absolution of being wrong.

I've tried, actually, to go back to being blind, to give up my woe's to some 'higher power' so that i could reduce my own personal stress in my life, to be happy.

if there's a god s/he pissed on me.

so yes. We are defensive, because your lots has been cruel to us.
If you can hold your faith, and take comfort in that magical invisible man, then more power to you.
You have an ability many of us on the left lack, because we're seen the truth.

A truth, I sincerely hope you never understand, because it's understanding is horrible, and painful beyond words.

No, I don't blame you.

But I also don't have time for your childish name-calling.

See ya.

It's far far worse than you can even comprehend.

Cling to your safety blanket.
im quite sincere in that.
that child like innocence is not a bad thing.

but don't dare to presume you know anything about what I and others have gone through in the name of your "loving god"

don't even presume for an instant.

:rofl:

:rofl:

I enjoy mixing blueberry flavored vodka and diet rootbeer and most find that pretty nasty. You should try it though, it is very tasty!

I grew up drinking only diet, regular soda was never in my house and I now find I do not like the taste of regular. I assume it works just as well though.

Sugary, but delicious

like cream of coconut rum
coca cola
water
ice cubes....

First time someone suggested it, I thought, "wtf?" then imagined the two flavors combined and thought, "that could be awesome!"

And it is.

I love meat. I love Texas. I love hot dogs and hamburgers. I think "DUing" polls is idiotic. I never sign online petitions. While I never spanked my daughter, I never hesitated to slap her on the hand when she threw a fit in public. I think a fair number of college degrees aren't worth their weight in piss. I don' think every capitalist is evil. Of all the places I've been on four continents, the United States is my favorite due to its varied geography, climate, citizens, and culture. I love NASCAR and most other forms of motorsports. I wouldn't walk across the street to see a professional soccer match even if it were free.

Those things put me at odds with a lot of DUers.

:spray:

It's not like it's the only national Italian restaurant chain and their food is no better or worse than other national ethnic restaurant chains.

And I got to Wal-Fart too, I wouldn't if I were not in a limited budget.

The following is from their website:

Olive Garden’s Culinary Institute of Tuscany, located in the heart of Tuscany, Italy in a restored 11th century village, is where Olive Garden’s chefs learn the secrets of great foods in Italy - like how to combine fresh ingredients - to create authentic Italian foods that you’ll enjoy sharing with your family and friends.

http://www.olivegarden.com/culinary/

And this would be their logo:

:rofl:

The "I saw you coming" grocery:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x1105599

and swap Florida for Texas, I could have written the same thing. Good job.

I don't know what is considered the consensus so I can't say if I agree or not.

1. I don't believe that all Christians are morons.
   
2. I don't believe that all conservatives are evil or uninformed.
   
3. I don't believe that a disparaging comment made about a member of a minority or other underrepresented group is necessarily racist/misogynist/etc.
   
4. I do not think its okay to openly call a Democratic elected official a liar simply because they have disappointed you. That's what Freeperville is for.
   
5. I don't believe that Monsanto is out to destroy civilization.
   
6. I believe that calling someone a "corporatist" is a sign of either incredible laziness or sheer stupidity.
   

There are more, but that's enough for now.

that many falsehoods are perpetuated about these visas.

At least the Hs. The legal requirements for them are the exact opposite of what their haters claim. It is illegal to hire them at a lower wage. That's the law, plain and simple. They have to be treated equally with US workers. If not, it's illegal and the employer can be prosecuted.

Its easier to hire a H1 worker for a lower salary and keep them at a lower salary longer. You can also expect the H1 worker to put in more hours.

Anyone aggrieved could try to get the government on them.

Obama is actually starting to target employers, too.

You cannot hire an H-1B worker at a lower salary than 1) the prevailing wage or 2) that which is being paid to other workers. Whichever is higher. You cannot have disparate treatment between H-1Bs and U.S. workers.

But you can hire them at the lowest end of the spectrum. An local worker will want a higher salary and will try and negotiate higher.

but often times it's a matter of degree.

I have a greater respect, for example, for organizations like PETA, Animal Defense League and those groups which might be more aggressive in their work. As someone who has seen heart-rending horrors in animal rescue, I feel particularly horrified by some of the cruelty in the world. I can only commend those who stand on their principles in the work they try to do every day.

I have ambivalent about some aspects of social welfare.

I am ambivalent about the Middle East. Someday, I think, we will try to sort things out and figure out which nations we have helped wage war on others, who we gave weapons to, and who is using them against us. Picking sides without checking for the morals of those we support has harmed us, and will likely harm us again.

I think the human race will come to naught if we don't go back into the exploration of space. I'm not sure if that clashes with people who insist we take care of our indigent population more or not, but without some new guidepost pointing to a future, we will stagnate and die--if not immediately, over time.

I'm sure there are other issues in general, but if we weren't all opinionated as we are, er wouldn't exist as a diversified people.

I'm a rabid animal rights activist. I belong to PETA and have taken part in many demonstrations. I know these things are not popular (actually they are condemned) in DU but it's something dear to my heart.

Probably the biggest things which would garner the most universal agreement here; that pot should be legalized, that GLBT citizens should have full (including marriage) equality, that reproductive freedom is a crucial, even deal-breaking issue in elections... that a Single Payer system would make the most sense, even if it's not realistically going to happen....

Most people here, I believe, feel the same as I do.

The areas where I vocally disagree with a segment of DU, there's generally a segment at least as large that agrees with me.

sorry Hitman...:D



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mpL-sNJZitg/S1hWlcDUeLI/AAAAAAAAAeE/oxvCytoRoy0/s400/Crow+Sting+WCW+Nitro.jpg

Fishbone, however, is God.

guns, capital punishment and being a pacifist (which I'm not). Still I have more in common with people here than anywhere else so I keep that in mind when I differ from "groupthink".

But I really hate it when someone thinks they have to "correct" another member's statements or opinions. I also hate when people make assumptions about something I have said. My experiences are not the same as yours. We are not the same and we should respect each other's differences.

I won't go into detail, but it has made me very cautious about posting on certain topics.

and we tolerate a wide variety of views. I know I sometimes run at odds with what you might call 'groupthink', but if I'm so motivated, I state my piece, and move on, often answering a few posts in dissent with mine.

Dissent is a healthy value for a democratic organization to have, and I'm glad we have it in abundance at Democratic Underground.

Could have fooled me, judging from the numerous posts I've seen over the years here.

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Concrete examples please.

Welcome to DU! :hi:


There's this: men don't suck and don't need to feel guilty for anything that happened before they were born.

Using the same methods.

The "Birkenstock" liberals have a point here and there, but to be brutally frank, I feel the social issues distract from the main one actually killing this country: The influence of the monied elites are throttling the population's ability to even just get by, let alone thrive.

Have we come to a "groupthink" about anything at all?

If you can give a "groupthink" example, I will be happy to let you know.

You apparently have a horse in this race ....

I belong to a consensus that wishes to make sure we are taking care of our families and loved ones before the gates are swung open ....

It is not about hatreds or prejudices ... it's about putting food on the table and junior through college ...

I disagree on plenty that is said here, I state my peace and move on.

i don't care this his account is around 2 years old. his post count is tiny for that age.
imho, he's just a disruptor who should be disrupted.

that is not group think, nor nongroup think. it is independent thinking that sometimes stands with majority and a lot of times stands with minority

I'm a "big tent" Democrat. I'm a Dem because of social and foreign policy issues. I disagree with most people here on economic issues. Even within that context, I find some people I agree with on some issues and others that I disagree with. Threads would be a lot shorter if we didn't have a variety of opinions.

I suppose there are a few issues where I tend to get into arguments, but it's not with 'groupthink', but with particular viewpoints:

(1) I am a strong supporter of vaccinations and the basic human right to modern medicine; and sometimes feel that some DU-ers equate the medicine itself with the for-profit American healthcare system - whereas in fact single-payer healthcare systems use the same medical treatments!

(2) I am critical of both the Israeli and Palestinian leadership and think both sides share blame in the conflict (same goes for quite a few other conflicts, but this is the one that tends to come up on DU)

(3) I am an atheist who has no problem with religion(s) as such, but has a LOT of trouble with political anti-secularism. Thus, I disagree with those who think that religion is invariably harmful or linked to the Right; but I disagree even more strongly with anyone who thinks that secularism harms society, or who supports the political 'pro-life' movement especially when this extends to supporting the defeat of pro-choice political candidates.

(4) I think that all right-wing viewpoints need to be strongly opposed; and that goes for paleoconservativism as well as neoconservativism. On a related note, I don't think that social and economic leftism/liberalism are truly divisible. Both are needed. The'fiscal conservative but social liberal' is really only socially liberal for those who can afford it; severe poverty or even the threat of it is just as oppressive as the police state, and discrimination against poor people is no better then discrimination against any other minority group. By the same token, sacrificing social liberalism to economic causes generally means that only *some* people - generally males who belong to racial and social majority groups - will benefit from the economic changes.

And more where all the comes from - but I wouldn't use the term 'groupthink' for DU.

This is a huge issue for an enormous segment of the DU community. However, the DU advocates of legalization of her hair do not represent the full spectrum of the American population. When we consider the consequences of pushing for this position to be included on the Democratic Plank, it should be obvious that it is just to radical.

The option for including the first twelve strikes me as less of a compromise than simply the type of clear thinking that wins elections.

beliefs however fall along the progressive model.

that gets posted here. Then we see the two sides of DU. General information doesn't seem to take a side.

in the face..then buried at sea as not to waste any real estate

Rape a baby...wait, I disagree and wouldn't waste a bullet when a bat will do.

:P

was full of lies and relied on torture. Therefore, I'm a jerk and an idiot who belongs only in the dungeon.

Thanks for asking!

I now await my flock of debunkers who will gather to diss me for this post.


:tinfoilhat:

on some topics, it doesn't matter how many people agree.

Taking a page from Victor Hugo, I place a higher value on the needs of a person-- regardless of accident of birth than I do on the imaginary red and blue lines on maps. That people are more important than national boundaries. That the reality holds more ethical weight than the symbol.

about "groupthink". How many disagreed with you??

I think its fascism, but I don't think I'm allowed to say that

The bootstrappers have taken the control booth

and sometimes we do not agree with him especially when he on the bipartisan shit. The Rethugs hate him but only him does not comprehend!