You do know that this May 21st rapture nonsense is coming from the fringe of the fringe, right?

I know it's all good to make fun of, but I could probably count on a few fingers and toes the Christians who actually take any of this seriously. And that's not just from traditional denominations but also from the hard right fundamentalists and evangalicals, as well.

So frankly I don't know why half the threads on the first page have to do with something that is so extremely marginal and why people feel the need to even obsess over it.

in the literal resurrection of a man from the dead is taken seriously?

Not to say that there are a sizable portion of Christians who believe in the concept of rapture as specifically and literally described in the Book of Revalation (I don't), but when the founder of the religion itself says you do not know the day I will return, then I think you look pretty foolish saying that you do know the day...

but actually picking a date. That line in the sand doesn't make me feel any better.

is picking a date. Those that believe in an end of days scenario (which is NOT a small minority) are no less ridiculous just because they don't have a date in mind.

...the Book of Revelation are fringe. Much more sizeable than the May 21sters, but still fringe from mainline Christianity.

The May 21sters are the fringe of the fringe. And those people are few and far between.

Not 41% of Christians, not 41% of evangelicals (it's 58% of them....) but 41% of the whole country believe in a rapture soon..

And about the same believe in hell too, despite DU believers' professions to the contrary...

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27877/americans-more-likely-believe-god-than-devil-heaven-more-than-hell.aspx

"Those that believe in an end of days scenario..."

Like nuclear holocaust, environmental catastrophe, population outstripping resources.... or just the end of days scenarios you yourself find silly?

The four horsemen. etc. Revelations bullshit. Jesus coming back to earth and separating the good from the evil.

You don't find that more than a little bit silly?

the rapture crap came on CNN and she was like...the guy is nuts...

next statement-

"quote"

"Nobody knows when the rapture will come but I'm ready for it" :eyes:

“The president of the United States has claimed, on more than one occasion, to be in dialogue with God. If he said that he was talking to God through his hairdryer, this would precipitate a national emergency. I fail to see how the addition of a hairdryer makes the claim more ridiculous or offensive.”

That's why all Presidents have to have a doG.

I thought everyone knew that!

For a biblical literalist, if alleged-sacred text seems to be contradictory, isn't this just because mere mortals simply don't understand the words properly?

Also, since the alleged historical figure called Jesus wasn't even officially declared to be "god" until 200 years after he allegedly died, I'm not sure how he could be described as "the founder" of the religion named after him.

Not mentioned at all in fact.

chapter 4 verses 16 and 17...

sP

And even that is kind of a stretch in terms of how it has been described by the "left behind" crowd.

Paul quite clearly states that 'The Day of the Lord' shall not come until the Son of Perdition is revealed. It seems that a lot has to happen before the rapture. I don't recall the Antichrist being revealed...though I may have missed it... :-) Now, ALL OF THIS assumes a belief in the event and the entire 'end times'...whose timeline is awfully muddy.

sP

for a truth that is beyond our ability to describe. I know theologians who say that's why there are different versions of the resurrection in the Gospels: Each demonstrates how the early faith communities were struggling to understand and convey the meaning of an experience of Jesus that was beyond understanding.

Still does not answer why one belief is taken seriously while anther is not.

while at the same time protecting the subject, walling it off from further inquiry.

That's advanced theology right there, cleanhippie! Can't you appreciate it?

:puke:

Anyone who claims that parts of the Bible are only metaphor, or can be ignored, has zero business citing scripture in support of any other claim.

I'll give the hardcore fundamentalists one thing-- they are more consistent and coherent about their faith than most.

the mind of Paul. It would be blasphemy in the family of Jesus what Christians believe. I am a Christian and I don't believe the magic. Of course, some have the balls to say I'm not a Christian but I am. argue on. But put the blame where it belongs: Paul of Tarsus

I never miss a chance to make fun of very stupid people.

.

...but I don't get the joy out of making fun of "stupid" people. I'd much rather make fun of the smart people who misuse their intelligence for the wrong purposes.

The so-called "smart people" aren't really that smart.

:P

The stupid ideas need to be rejected. If we pussyfoot around the stoopid just because it involved Jeebus, then people won't realize that what they are thinking is stupid. Bullshit needs to be called on bullshit. And this, along with all other forms of "end of times," is bullshit.

Humor comes in all forms and is enjoyed by different types of people. Humor is good for you. It relieves stress.

.

And many of us are recovering fringe fundies ourselves...

How many believe that there will be a rapture just don't believe it is on May 21st? The number increases.
How many believe that they will go to heaven after they die?
How many believe that non-believers will burn in hell for not believing in their god of love?
How many believe that there was a historical Jesus that died, rose from the dead, and then ascended into heaven?
How many believe that Mary was assumed into heaven?

This particular belief is no more or less crazy than a good majority of the dogma of Christianity.

So it is inherently contradictory with the religion itself, even if it is your stated desire to attack the "dogma of Christianity".

when mainline Christianity has beliefs that are equally as unlikely. But if you say anything about that then you are "attack(ing) the 'dogma of Christianity.'" Why aren't you attacking the dogma of the religious that believe the rapture will happen tomorrow?

There are a million and one interpretations of the Book of Revelation alone. I was taught in my CCD classes that all that book did was symbolize the end of the Roman empire. My very Catholic mother once remarked it was her opinion that the book was nothing but a huge acid trip.

I think bottom line is that some have used this silly fringe of fringe beliefs as an excuse to attack the greater religion.

True that the Catholics don't put a lot of merit in Revelation as prophecy. Others do.

And again, the concept of an end times is NOT a fringe belief in Christianity.

The point is although only a small minority believe the Rapture will happen tomorrow, millions of those Christians do believe, for example, that Jesus was born of a virgin and Jesus died and came back from the dead and Jesus will return to Earth at some point. Mainstream Christians may draw the line at believing the 5/21 stuff, but millions of them embrace the previous scenarios, which are frankly pretty nutty in spite of being culturally familiar.

angels actually exist. How does one prove that angels do not exist? Impossible.

70% believe they do so the burden would be on them to prove their existence. Can you prove that a magical invisible purple dragon doesn't live in my garage? Well it does, and I demand respect for that belief.

I have no special place in my heart for people whose answer is "prove there isn't a god." Not my burden. I don't believe in any gods. And you can believe what you want, but once those crazy beliefs starting getting pushed on me for whatever reason and/or become public, I am now free to comment on them.

...prove to me that Santa Claus doesn't exist, and I will use those same proofs about your god (or something like that).

And after that point anything believed is a matter of faith. Which I personally don't have a problem with, so long as the distinction is drawn between the two. Hence why teaching intelligent design--a strict matter of faith--is highly inappropriate in public school science classes.

We cannot prove what we cannot see, but some people will ultimately believe that since we cannot see something, we cannot prove it, and it does not exist. Whereas others will say just because we as humans cannot see something or emphrically prove it doesn't mean it exists on some other plane. And I've got no bone to pick with either camp, because it's a subjective question. Like who is the greatest musician of all time.

Heck, no one has proven alien life exists on other planets, or seen any evidence of such life (although many have postulated on its probability). It's not much different than that.

The fact is, until we draw our final breath in our life, no one will actually know. There are people out there who are convinced they must have the final say on the matter, yea or nay, but it will never happen. So I figure why get so hung up on it? People will either subscribe to some religious or theistic belief, or they won't. I'm neither a believer in prostelization of belief nor a believer in telling others they are stupid for what they believe. As Thomas Jefferson said, it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.

This guy has a following of hundreds of thousands to millions of listeners worldwide. It's a small fraction of Christianity, true, but they have radio stations in most major radio markets. This is the biggest mass delusion since "The Great Disappointment". Even bigger, really.

Bullshit. This shit is everywhere. There is huge amounts of money behind it, billboards everywhere, all over TV being reported as though it might actually happen. This is no fringe, it is the repugs insane base and more then a little scary just how many people are buying into this shit.

I know there's not that many of them that believe, but I did get a text from an uncle about getting ready for the end (along with a link to the family radio nutjob). Being related to several fundies, I'm really getting off on mocking these people

the more people are sucked into it. The fringe of birthers expanded to almost half of the republican party, lemmings that they are.
Just imagine half the republican party expecting the rapture tomorrow, how ridiculous will they look?
Oh, I forgot, they already qualify as ridiculous.

idiocy - in fact almost all of them have this nonsense as fundamental part of their theology. They merely disagree about the date.

It can still be mocked. In fact if it is this friggin absurd it is our duty to mock it. If we even give it the hint of acceptability it moves the line wildly as to what IS reasonable.

would it convince more or less people the rupture was a possibility?

frightening.

of the left.

You do understand that this sort of nonsense -- whether it comes from the right or the left -- impedes progress (i.e., the progressive movement), don't you?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/20/us/20rapture.html?partner=rss&emc=rss

P.S. You can always hide the threads that bore or disturb you.

You've got fundies in every place on the political specturm. I don't really think it has anything to do with the right or the left.

Not necessarily accurately, but they're measured.

My point is that we've got our own fringe. I'm as guilty as anyone of trying to throw light on the irrational, and I don't really care which "side" the irrational is on. I just try not to be mean about it.

This BTW is maybe the 5th 'rapture' thread I've posted in, give or take.

With everything going on in the world, humor in necessary.

I suspect more people believe in an imminent rapture than you are comfortable admitting...

http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=1043

(just kidding)

But books like Left Behind are very popular so the idea of the Rapture seems to be part of the mainstream.

It's coming from a con artist who cloaks himself in religiosity in order to prey on people's spiritual feelings. It's a particularly nasty form of predation and I strongly support ridicule or anything else that might act as warning to potential victims of what is in effect a class of legal or at least quasi-legal fraudsters.

except to the extant that he is also conning himself.

I think he is very sincere. Which doesn't make him less of a predator...just a predator who doesn't realize what he really is.

Sort of like an accidental vampire.

The billboards funded by individuals typically include advertising for one of this sincere person's sixty-odd Christian radio stations. He's also raked in millions in direct donations. Sincere my ass. If he were sincere, he'd be broke too, spending his last buck trying to help others.

People do inconsistent stuff all the time. We're abysmal at logic. He probably thinks the best thing he can do is preach his nonsense message. In fact, I know that's what he has argued, as I've listened to him since I discovered his craziness. I can't look away from the train wreck.

I'm convinced he feels bad about what he thinks is coming. But he also believes that only his God saves people, and nothing he does besides preaching matters, because all his words are but a vehicle for salvation.

He's a sad old man, brainwashing himself and others. He'll be even sadder this time tomorrow, and will die a pathetic failure who inadvertently bamboozled people he thought he was helping.

Yes, the naming of the date is nutty fringery, but then you must mean that the very concept of the Rapture is perfectly rational.

My division calls the rapture a big load of shist. And church of Christ isn't the fundies that all have long hair, skirts, and no makeup or earrings....in case you're wondering.

I also remember the priest at my parish stating in a homily that it was his belief that the "second coming" would not be all fire and brimstone a la Revelation, but rather a time of peace.

And I don't ever remember being taught in my religious studies about the idea of the rapture itself, i.e. people being seized up to heaven while others were "left behind." That was just something that I never heard about until I heard sermons from fundamentalists on the notion.

in Lutheran Catechism. (ELCA)

For the life of me, I can't figure out how to value faith or measure it. These folks have faith. So do other Christians (or Muslims or Jews or Hindus) who believe differently. It's impossible to quantify the accuracy or validity of faith, so it comes down to "this I believe".

For this very reason, in order to be intellectually honest, I must consider the possibility probability that my faith is just as full of hogwash as theirs is.

Trying to lump all Christians as crazy when in actuality it is a small group.

This scenario reminds me of the media & teabaggers.

and considering that no mention has been made of the Second Coming in my church, I need to find out what I've missed. Maybe I was sick that Sunday? :shrug:

Unless your church has avoided this chapter, and others, I don't see how the second coming could be avoided.

Matthew 24
The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’

30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since the authors are dead, I don't think there's a copywrite issue here...

Edited to bold.

to the ass-kicking you got. What say you about the words of Jesus?

and yes it includes an 'end time' and of course a second coming of christ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_(Christian_eschatology)
or more generally
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Eschatology

to deny that end times belief is not pervasive in christian teaching is pretty silly.

"The Second Coming of Christ is the central event in Christian eschatology and the Book of Revelation is at the core of Christian eschatology. The study of Revelation is usually divided into four approaches. In the Futurist approach, Revelation is chiefly seen as referring to events which as yet have not come to pass, but which will come to pass at the end of the age, and the end of the world. This is the approach which most applies to eschatological studies. In the Preterist approach, Revelation chiefly refers to the events of the 1st century AD, such as the struggle of Christianity to survive the persecutions of the Roman Empire, the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and the desecration of the temple in the same year. In the Historicist approach passages in Revelation are identified with major historical people and events. In the Idealist (or Spiritualist or Symbolic) approach, the events of Revelation are neither past nor future, but are purely symbolic, dealing with the ongoing struggle and ultimate triumph of good over evil."

- as protestant has been broken into two sub-categories - "white evangelical" and "white main line". The evangelical percentage skews the results at a whopping 58% whereas "white main line" is lower than even catholics at 27%. I fall into the "white main line" category which explains why I've not heard anything about it in church.

I do question why whites only are in this survey. Last I checked churches are full of people of other races.

Now we need to address your potty-mouth. I asked you a polite question. Would it have killed you to have answered politely?? Maybe you should seek some help about your anger issues.

sway more than so called "mainline". If Catholics and "mainline" vastly outnumbered evangelicals the overall number would not be so much higher than their levels would it? 54% overall Protestants - but "mainline is onl 27 and evangelicals 58? What does that say about which group dominates Protestantism? ......Now do you accept this is not a fringe position or do facts not matter? Maybe you "missed" paying attention outside your own congregation? I wish nonbelievers could be so protected from the excesses of your brethren's beliefs as you seem to be. :shrug: :shrug: :shrug:

:wtf: :eyes:

Actually, you can find signs and banners hundreds of years old.

Jesus has been keeping a lot of people waiting... even after he said no one knows when, they didn't listen.

All of the "signs" of the second coming are natural things that happen every year. Floods... earthquakes... wars... pestelence... people coming in God's name and saying stupid shit.

that indicates that the rapture group is representative of all christianity? I'd be interested in seeing that.

I see.

because we do't have a literature we view as "fundamental" truth.

Words; they have meaning.

if it's the wrath of god tomorrow or ecological collapse in a half century? not in the grand scheme of geological time.

Facebook has been delightful today ... doomsday songs, invitations to post-rapture looting ... it's a hoot!

And the cuckoos were out in force in our town square today. I got me a nifty pamphlet, with a semi-truck on the cover, telling me I'm drivin' myseff STRAIGHT TO HAYL!

From my experience that is not true.

The basic notion of some whacky-ass Rapture is embraced by a huge percentage of American Christians. Quit trying to spin the beliefs of a basic core of your brethren of faith as being atypical and accept that they are quite normal and representative of American Christianity.

the 5/21 Rapture hoopla has shined a light on a lot of ridiculousness that they are supposed to believe in their mainstream "faith."