Tea Party gets law change encouraging silver/gold for retail transactions in Utah

should have done a better job here:

I'm fully convinced of this point. They want us back at least 100 years. When there were no labor laws and industry ran amok with the lower incomes. Where women were banished to the kitchen if poor, the parlor room if rich. Where anybody who isn't white was a servant to the white (rich) man. In two decades they GOP has done nothing to persuade me from this notion.

Art. I, sec. 8
The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
*****
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
*****

sec.10
No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money ; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

There is no such restriction on Congress.

coin a tender for legal debt.


States can't make things other than gold and silver coin a tender for legal debt.

Therefore states can make gold and silver coin a tender for legal debt.





Not that I support this idea, just seeing if I am reading that correctly.

No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money ; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility.

They can make silver and gold coin legal tender, but they can't actually coin money. If states could have made silver coins of their own, the Free Silver Issue of the late 1800s would have been unnecessary - the silver producing states such as Colorado would have just issued their own coins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Silver

But the whole thing is a moot point since the Federal government has occupied the field as far as producing currency goes.

If it were not, South Carolina would have made Cotton a tender in payment of debts, Virginia and North Carolina would have made Tobacco a tender and Kentucky would have accepted Whiskey.

The "no coining money," "no issuing of letters of credit" and "nothing but gold and silver coin" work together to require all the states to accept Federal Money as their only legal tender.

The Law of the Land does not apply to them.. Take Roe vs Wade for instance.. It is settled Law yet as many as elevin states have passed laws in opposition to it..Democrats will not challenge those laws because they know the Extreme Court would gladly reverse itself on Roe v Wade and make abortion illegal throughout the land..:shrug:

sell the gold we have in fort knox? huh?

Section. 8.The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

Nobody is coining any money. This is a debit card just like the one your bank issues you. Is anyone suing banks because they issue debit or credit cards? This debit card has a dollar worth based on the gold you have with a depository. Nothing unconstitutional unless you think debit cards are unconstitutional. Maybe you do.

Thinking on this for a bit longer I agree, you can actually buy with gold now provided the merchant is willing and you can agree on a price for the gold you have. When I was dredging a few years ago we would sell our (what was referred to as "river run") gold for 75% of what they call the "spot" price posted in The financial reports, some would pay 80% prices varied from week to week and sometimes day to day we would hold out for what we hoped was the highest it was going to get. I know some merchants in Quincy, Cal. would trade for gold and I personally bought some mining supplies with raw gold back in the nineties.

The debit card has no dollar value just as an unsigned check has no dollar value. You don't give someone a debit card or an unsigned check to cover a debt - you use the card or check to transfer a specific amount of legal tender from your bank account to theirs.

Give that news to about 150 million people that have them. The Utah law is no different than any other debit card.

Neither of which are 'legal tender'

Big difference. Get your facts straight before you start with the snark.

Buddy. Get your facts straight.

Checks are legal. They are not legal tender.
Debit cards are legal. They are not legal tender.
A genuine $10 bill is legal and it is legal tender.
It is you who does not have your facts straight. Buddy.

Checks and debit cards are a vehicle to obtain legal tender. In and of themselves they are nothing without the backing of legal tender.

and "create money" which is the government's job.

You know what's helpful? To read what someone actually writes. :thumbsup:

By itself the card is worth nothing, so it is not legal TENDER, any more than a check is legal tender. If a check were legal tender any merchant would HAVE to accept it. They don't have to and they don't have to accept your debit card either.

Pennies are legal tender but merchants don't have to accept them either. Those cases have been to court a dozen times and merchants have won every time. What is your point? They don;t have to accept them. OK Merchants that don't accept debit cards will be out of business shortly in today's market.

I can guarantee you that. Another way in which these are not debit cards. Thanks.

Giving them a plastic card as you well know if you read the link I provided.

Not the law itself, which is not about debit cards - at least that is the way I read all of the links on this, including yours.

If you wish to pay in based on a checking account which loses value every day go ahead. Some people want to pay dollars derived off of an asset which has been gaining in value over the last ten years. Who gets the most value? I will do the math for you. It is the latter case.

I'll get my 18 carat gold necklase and hit the local WalMart for a new TV. At $1400/oz, I should be able to get something quite nice. Wonder how my change will come? Maybe they can just snap off a few links and hand them back?

Wasting time and making rules that male absolutely no sense whatsoever, and have absolutely no way to implement, all in an effort to thumb their collective mormon noses (and yes the State Legislators are 90% mormons) at a black President.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

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Just wait til they see Obama's face on paper money (!)

sure Jethro, I'll sell you a gallon of gas for two of them there shiny gold coins

Your uncle must have fallen for Glenn Becks goldline scam. if you want to buy gold, stay as far away from the numismatic coins unless you believe Obama would pull an FDR and seize everyones gold bullion again.

Gold bullion or gold stocks is what you are looking for

:eyes:

I'd like to raise a few dozen chickens in my backyard, or a goat or two, so I can buy groceries and pay my utility bills. Also doctor and dentist copays.

But the city won't permit me. It gave me hell a few years ago for not having raingutters (I was in the process of painting my house and took them down to paint the fascia), so I know I won't be allowed to raise chickens and goats.

Maybe I could use beads for barter?

Hey, Doc! I need a root canal. How many beads would cover that?

I think your city ordinances are the least of your problems.

How long did it take to paint the fascia on your house?

In autumn, I tore down the gutters and started sanding and filling in holes and cracks. Then I primed the surfaces (Kilz) and started painting. I even contacted a local business to put up new gutters when I finished. They gave me an estimate which I considered fair.

We had an "early winter" and the temperature suddenly dropped to below 40 degrees. The research I did told me not to paint below 40 degrees, so I put the project on "hold" until warmer weather.

Well, the codes enforcement officer came around and noticed I didn't have rain gutters. He told me this was an infraction. I explained about the winter and showed him the estimate I had received from the rain-gutter company. He said I wasn't the only one caught in the midst of a home-improvement project and the sudden chill of winter. He asked that I keep him informed of progress.

Everything was going smoothly until I came home one day in February and found a citation on my front door. It was a citation telling me to appear in court. I called about our "agreement" and was told that officer had retired and another had taken his place. The first thing that person did was go out and issue citations to every person who was in the same situation I was.

I was summoned to appear in court in some 30 days. That brought us into March. I appeared and plead "not guilty" due to the agreement I had with the previous codes-enforcement officer. I was then remanded over to see the city attorney in some 30-45 days. That brought us into April. I saw the city attorney and was told to fix the situation within 30 days or I'd be subjected to a fine. An inspector would be sent out to see that I had complied with the city attorney's request. That brought us into May. By then the temperature was right for painting so I finished the job, contacted the rain-gutter people who came out and put up the gutters. This was confirmed by the inspector, and I was an honest citizen once again.

That's it in a nutshell.

If someone wants to trade something I need, I'm always willing to negotiate.

Plus you can use it to wash your face or your bottom if necessary.

nuff said

:D

Do they really think that minimum wage store clerks are going to weigh gold for payments? And how do you give out change, in ore or in $$'s? This is not going to work so well for store owners, unless their clerks can tell real ores from fake.


Is anything that shines going to be used as tender?


Wait a minute, just checked the link...the way this looks - if I can find a dealer to pay me the amount of money a silver dollars silver content is worth (instead of face value of $1.00)I can collect that amount. I wonder if that would be more than what a coin collector would pay for an old silver dollar?

Just take that gold to a bank and exchange it for something you can use to say how much it's worth. Then take that note over to the store and tell them to take it out of their account. We'll call it ducats!

I am brilliant.
:crazy:

Just like the one a bank issues you for money in an account.

Has nothing to do with a debit card except that is a more convenient tool to extract money than a check.

Thanks for raining on my joke parade. ;)

It is a debit card based on the gold/silver you have in a depository. The dollar amount on the card can go up or down based on the price of gold. Pretty simple really.

Because the link in the OP to the article on the law makes no mention of debit cards and gold/silver in a depository.

It does say this:

Now, however, Utah has passed a law intended to encourage residents to use gold or silver coins made by the Mint as cash, but with their value based on the weight of the precious metals in them, not the face value — if, that is, they can find a merchant willing to accept the coins on that basis.

Sounds kind of like trading gold and silver to me.

"banks should now be free to offer their customers accounts denominated in legal tender gold & silver coins, so that consumers will be able to make purchases based on those accounts, using their debit cards, checks, ATM cards, etc. Banks should also easily convert FRNs to Gold & Silver Coins and vice-versa, since they will now be treated as simple currency exchanges." http://constitutionaltender.blogspot.com/2011/03/utah-governor-signs-gold-silver-legal.html

The only thing "new" in this law is that the state will not tax any capital gains on the commodity accounts.

And I must say that, contrary to your repeated assertion that "this is a debit card" does not quite follow from "banks should now be free....." But hey, I what do I know, since I obviously don't know what I am talking about.

better job of explaining the debit card system. I can't find them right now. If banks can do this why aren't they? This will be a state depository anyway not a bank.

Commodity based accounts are extremely risky for both the account holders and the banks. Commodity prices go up but they come down also.
I can't imagine why a state would risk the public treasury to back these accounts. It is downright irresponsible. If they go through with this it will likely negatively affect the state bond ratings. Taxpayers should be outraged. The state of Ohio pension system lost a bundle of money on an account like this which invested in "rare coins". Only people who made any money were the brokers and a couple of crooks. The only thing worse than this would be for a state to get into hedge funds - which of course some have.

Banks aren't doing it because of the money they make off checking and savings accounts based on a paper dollar. I am glad you think banks are so consumer friendly -- there just hasn't been a demand for this stuff!!!

Which is why few merchants except the ones already dealing in gold and silver bullion coins will get on board with this. It is voluntary. They can't require that merchants take these coins in payment. This is a publicity stunt by Utah lawmakers.

http://www.tungsten-alloy.com/en/alloy11.htm

A merchant would be crazy to take gold or silver instead of cash.

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