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Next time some fundie tries to pull that "It's only a theory" bullshit on you tell them this:

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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:02 AM
Original message
Next time some fundie tries to pull that "It's only a theory" bullshit on you tell them this:
From the letters section of the opinion page of my morning paper.

http://www.nj.com/times-opinion/index.ssf/2011/06/times_of_trenton_letters_to_th_9.html

Sometimes a theory is not just a theory

A recent entry in the ongoing discussion of evolution on this page (“A theory is just that until it is proven,” June 6) unfortunately illustrates two common misunderstandings: one, of the meaning of the word “theory” in a scientific context versus its common use in everyday speech, and the other regarding what constitutes scientific “proof.”

The scientific method requires that a hypothesis be tested by seeking to disprove it. If an experiment shows that a hypothesis is wrong, the hypothesis must be either rejected or updated to reflect the new findings. While, in common parlance, a “theory” is an untested idea awaiting verification, in a scientific context, a “theory” is a hypothesis that has been repeatedly tested and still survives. In this sense, a scientific theory is held to a higher standard of proof than, for example, a verdict in a court of law, which requires only proof beyond a reasonable doubt.


That evolution has occurred is patently clear from the fossil record, which documents the incremental changes leading to many of the organisms we see today. The “theory” that evolution has occurred by natural selection has survived 150 years of rigorous testing and remains one of our strongest and most useful scientific findings.

-- Mike Livstone, Ph.D.,
East Windsor

The writer is scientific curator at the Lewis-Sigler Institute for Integrative Genomics at Princeton University. He writes in his capacity as a private citizen.


Thank you for making that perfectly clear, Dr. Livstone.
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OKNancy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. I always say : so do you believe in the theory of gravity? n/t
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Tesha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #1
13. "Gravity is just a theory as well; why not test the theory by jumping off that bridge over there?"
(NT)
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #13
22. That would just be intelligent falling.
:eyes:
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. lol
and if someone has faith, god could save them from falling - I mean, if god is willing to undo the material world - why not in this case?

why doesn't someone who claims the laws of the physical world do not apply to god try this and see if god agrees with their view that god disagrees with science?
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:07 AM
Response to Original message
2. The Virgin Birth is just a Theory.
They hate that.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. It is not a theory. It is a fable.
There's a big difference.
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malaise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Ditto n/t
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:34 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. even worse, a mistranslation.
The proper translation was not "virgin" but young woman. The two are not synonymous.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. And therein lies the problem -
they don't KNOW the difference.
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JoePhilly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
23. The OP asks what you should say to a fundie when they say
"evolution is a theory".

Trust me, if you respond by saying "The Virgin Birth is just a theory", the fundie in question will go nuts.
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Tunkamerica Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Um... no, it's a story.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:09 AM
Response to Original message
3. Trust me: They won't listen, and wouldn't understand if they did.
I've tried that with many creationists. It goes right over their heads.
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NeedleCast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yup, that's the problem
Most of them are so ignorant of science, and the scientific method, that using this arugment on them is like watching my dog bark at a shovel.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
6. There's no way a fundy's gonna understand that. (n/t)
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
9. Beleif gets in the way of thinking.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
10. President Ronald Reagan popularized that idiotic belief, btw
another thing he did that makes you wonder why anyone ever voted for him for president.
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ChairmanAgnostic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Because Carter was backstabbed by his own party,
and because the MSM made him out to look like a fool, when he was anything but.

He also made some major mistakes, which he acknowledged.

I fear that Obama is becoming Carterized, if only because he continues to follow Geitner's horrific economic advice
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northoftheborder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. I have wished to have the megaphone to shout....
.....the definition of the word "THEORY" which you so ably have accomplished above. It drives me crazy to hear the word tossed around as meaning an "idea", or "suggestion", etc... It is a scientific word based upon actual researched and proved facts. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
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Scuba Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
15. Yeah, but that's just more science so it doesn't count...
...only a whackjob liberal athiest would argue differently.















sarcasm thingy
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
17. From talk.origins
Edited on Fri Jun-10-11 09:03 AM by TransitJohn
When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact.

Rest at: http://talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. Most people don't understand the role of theory in science
and only know of it through very brief encounters with essays or discussions about 'the scientific method.'

Most of what people vaguely familiar with biology think of as the scientific method is an grand oversimplification that attempts to link into a simple model at least three available methodologies used by scientists. The scientific method is usually presented as a mostly linear, goal oriented, process describing a pathway that leads practitioners from observations to scientific laws.

The model of scientific method incorporated into textbooks for US biology students was developed by the BSCS in the shadow of sputnik. It emphasizes experimental methods and does little to develop students' ability to develop understanding of theory or competency in theoretical methodologies.

While I appreciate the quote in the citation and agree with it's basic message, I find it curious that a comment on the general lack of understanding of the term theory must try to make the term comprehensible by reducing and simplifying characteristics and properties of theory (including summation, logical coherence, explanation, prediction, postulation, etc) to those of a well tested hypothesis.







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IDemo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:14 AM
Response to Original message
19. They'll just chime in with "why do 20,000 scientists disagree?"
Regardless of whether the topic is evolution, climate change, or an Earth older than 7,000 years, somehow they always have mysterious thousands of unnamed scientists to pull out of their pocket.
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
20. This is a great and very concise and well written summary...knr
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
21. Dishonest arguments love to abuse terminology. "How can it be 'global warming' if X got colder?!"

It's the only way to make the *scientific theory* of evolution sound like a parallel to, say, a religiously-motivated wild guess like "Intelligent Design."
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Permanut Donating Member (477 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
25. This fundie I won't name...
because he's in the family, makes the argument moot (to him, anyway) by stating that the theory of evolution isn't really a theory at all, just a hypothesis.

It's like trying to pick up Jello off the floor with a fork, talking to these people.
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tex-wyo-dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
26. Thanks for the post, nonperson...
The quote you provide is a very good explanation. The problem is trying to explain this to your typical fundie is like trying to explain semiconductor physics to a 5 year old...they don't have the education or cognitive reasoning skills to even begin to understand the concept. They want/(need?) Simple black or white, good or bad, saintly or evil demarcation to everything.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-10-11 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
27. K&R, (nt)
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nonperson Donating Member (901 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-11-11 05:31 AM
Response to Original message
28. Thank you all for your comments, additions, musings, etc.
I know from experience that trying to reason with the vast majority of fundies is a waste of time but if you have some time to waste it's usually entertaining even if completely exasperating.

This was the most complete, concise explanation I'd heard and I had to share it here where I knew it would be appreciated.

:hi:
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