Many State Legislators Lack College Degrees

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/13/education/13legis.html?hpw

I don't think that higher education should be mandated for legislatures, but I would not vote for someone for statewide office who did not seek out ANY post-high school education. Something. Being an effective legislator does require a developed and trained intellect.

I have friends who run companies that earn millions of dollars per year who have no college degree. Why should a college degree from potentially decades ago mean anything in the face of experience???

sP

I'd vote for a Democrat with no college degree but 30 years of real-life business experience before I'd vote for a Democrat with a freshly-printed Political Science B.A. degree from an Ivy League school.

because experience/longevity prove you have the wherewithal to cut it in that environment...

sP

I've been represented by both. I prefer the ones who seek post secondary education.

a post-secondary education is ZERO evidence of governing ability. Track record in life says a lot more to me than a degree. You can earn a degree as a totally self-absorbed, shallow, unintelligent, POS... I have known people with college degrees who cannot screw in a lightbulb and I am not just speaking of Community College degrees...

sP

Let's face it - a knowledge of history and civics (which includes the constitution) is an important skill for an elected official.

you can gain a good knowledge of history and civics without college...in fact, most schools SUCK at requiring/teaching those things.

sP

With that said, I would never vote for someone who did not seek any education beyond high school.

Second, I do not think that running a business qualifies you to be an effective legislator. Running a successful business is a primarily a matter of timing, financing, and good fortune. Being an effective legislator requires a thorough understanding of the intricacies of mundane issues, and your ability to build a coherent consensus.

spoken by someone who has obviously never run a business...

what WOULD make you a good legislator? you think government is not a business??? ok...


sP

That and financing are the keys to a successful venture.

Also, Government IS NOT a business. Government exists to serve its citizens without the burden of making a profit.

it takes skill. Luck can play into a lot of things...but if LUCK is required for a business to succeed then no one should even bother since luck is a fickle thing.

And, while the gov't doesn't make a profit it can run a hell of a deficit (most businesses cannot for very long while the gov't has been doing it for decades), it has all of the other hallmarks of a business: goals, income, expenses, employees...you get the picture.

sP

No matter how hard you were willing to work, no matter how smart you are, no matter what, more than likely, your business venture was going to fail because there was no credit to be had any where that year. NONE.

my company never did...we were/are quite successful...

sP

Most new ventures need credit in order to pay their employees, their suppliers, and their bills. Credit is the life blood of building and expanding a business.

It's silly to suggest that you don't need credit for a new venture. Absolutely silly.

and never one nickle of credit is a fantasy then...interesting.

sP

It's not realistic for most new ventures. But congrats any way.

you know, I am sorry about being argumentative. I am really not trying to suggest that good or bad luck cannot make or break a company. It certainly can...but it would seem that planning would be taking BAD luck into account. Most businesses I have seen fail were due to bad planning and preparation. Even one of mine did...it did not so much as fail as I had to stop working at it because I did not have a contingency to deal with low income for the first couple of years...

I think most people become qualified to lead or govern based much more on experience than what was taught in the classroom. The classroom can give a good foundation, but if you want me to follow you, you have to prove to me that you know where you at least WANT to go and have some basic plans on how to get there.

I do owe you an apology for being a dink in some of my comments...

sP

With long hours, hard work, and outstanding customer service, we are up to 21 cars, with most of the major hotels, and one of the largest hospitals in the world using us for their primary provider.

I'm not going to say luck had NOTHING to do with it, but it was less important than the rest. You MAKE your luck.

As for legislatures, commissions, councils, etc. I suspect a wide range of occupational and educational experiences would be better than either a monolith of educators and business types. Doesn't the common working person deserve a voice in the legislature?

If may ask?

By keeping the cars clean and repaired, by being polite to the customer, by parking in highly visible places, by using Google AdWords and social media, by talking and passing out cards to every desk clerk, hotel manager, medical professional, cop, and bartender in sight, by humbly apologizing to everyone who doesn't have a great experience with us.

When you do that, "luck" follows.

Out of the goodness of their heart? Someone just gifted you 21 cars. You didn't lease them at all? Right?

And they didn't all come at once.

We got the credit because of how the business was run. The owner lived off of personal savings for the first two years while reinvesting the profits, made the payments on time, and presented a solid business plan to the lender.

Credit is not EASY, but neither is it IMPOSSIBLE.

Is that correct?

Just like you said no one could!

:crazy:

Was it early or late 2008?

If it was early 2008, you were lucky because by the Fall 2008, credit was drying up.

If it was late 2008, you were extremely lucky because no one else could get credit during the Fall of 2008.


Either way, you were damn lucky to get any credit in 2008. Damn lucky.

I'm not the owner of the company, I am in customer service and driver management.

From my understanding, the first 4 or 5 cars were purchased cash, using the proceeds of the owner mortgaging his house. The current lease agreement came in early 2009. Yes, credit was hard to find, but not impossible. And now that we have some visibility, he says people want to throw money at him. But he doesn't want to over-expand and end up with underpaid drivers and wasted capacity.

Why am I seeing 0 posts for you even though I'm replying to your 2nd one? :shrug:

I've been wondering that myself. Probably some glitch.

I do not think that running a business qualifies you to be an effective legislator.

Too often we hear (usually Republican) candidates for office claiming that if elected, they'll "run government like a business." Sheer idiocy! :rofl:

What do incoming CEOs usually do to "turn around a failing business?" Fire a substantial portion of the employees. Shareholders love that kind of "governing." But you can't "fire" a substantial portion of the citizenry if elected to public office. You have to work with what you have.

Tell any incoming CEO he can't lay anyone off in the company and see how well he "performs."

CEOs work for the investors; legislators work for the people. That's what needs to get into the brains of the "if elected, I run government like a business" dolts...

duplicate post...

Running a successful business is a primarily a matter of timing, financing, and good fortune. I didn't read anything about "luck."

I would think anyone would agree with this assessment. "Good fortune" could be being at the right place at the right time, getting that important, money-making lead or phone call, knowing the right person at the right time, getting in on the "deal" of the century, etc...

Or, getting that life-saving bailout from American taxpayers.

even you say "being in the right place at the right time"...that is nothing more than luck. Timing? You make your own timing. Getting a lead? Fostered from relationships you create and manage...same thing with the 'knowing the right people'... Now, that doesn't say that luck doesn't help...it is a beautiful thing. But you cannot count on it and a good business manager doesn't need luck...

sP

Then your chances of success were pretty good.

If you started a business in 2008, then your chances of failure were pretty good.

Again, fortune and timing are among the biggest success factors.

and the TIME when you start a business is one of the factors...that is not luck...that is a decision. Luck can enhance either success or failure...but it is NOT a requirement of running a business. Which business model do you propose? The one based on luck or the one based on sound planning and strategy? Hmmmm...

Once again, you are speaking like someone who has never run a successful business.

sP

It's all a matter of timing and good fortune.

Born to rich parents? More likely to be successful.

Start your business when credit is available and easy to get? More likely to be successful.

Have easy access to start up cash? More likely to be successful.

The reason you are more LIKELY to be successful given your scenarios is that you can

1) Handle the initial failures due to access to operating capital
2) Borrow your way into #1

It does not require luck...<redacted unnecessary and rude comment on my part>

sP

You can draft air tight business plans, but your business can be taken down because of forces far outside of your control.

There's only so much that you can control.

they can...but that isn't luck either...

sP

There is an old saying, "Buy when people are selling,, and sell when people are buying".

In our case, people still need to go places. Places too far to walk. Places where buses can never afford to go. Plus, being a progressive green company in 2008, we were GOING to get supporters.

If you provide a product or service that people need or want, and do it in an economically responsible way, and do it with positive attitude, you might succeed, you might fail.

If you go into it with a "lost cause we don't have a chance" attitude, you will be proven correct.

c'mon, give people that start and run business some credit. It's some serious work, hard work, 16 hour a day for little money at the start work. It's a huge risk in life, for your family, etc.. to start a business. Maybe MBA types are the guys you're talking about here, but people who started business.. It's a lot of work, lots of risk, lots of hardship, then timing, financing, and good fortune.

How about business owners who have degrees? They aren't unheard of.

would never vote for JUST the uneducated guy/gal. but i also wouldn't use education as the SOLE criteria for voting either.

sP

someone with an intelligent and awake mind will find learning even if they don't go to college, will seek out knowledge and experiences beyond the bare minimum. That was one of the knocks on President Bush and Sarah Palin. Not that they were dumb, per se (I don't think they are), but that they really have no curiosity beyond the narrowest of definitions.

Of course Bush went to college and emerged as the incurious dolt we've come to know.

Bryant

and their life experience. a track record makes all the difference.

sP

I don't spend any time wondering who was actually the better president.

The working class is fucked precisely because our elected officials don't identify with the public.

Shove this elitist bullshit.

For some people, a degree doesn't mean crap.
It doesn't make a person a critical thinker, good decision maker, or have any common sense.

...and how effective he/she is at advancing their positions.

Most 4-year degrees are economically worthless (or worse), so unless you are studying something very specialized for which there is no other way to learn the material then going to college means you're a fool taking on a huge debt you didn't need to take on.

The lack of a degree neither implies less real education nor less intelligence. Bill Gates, after all, had no degree (might have gotten an honorary one since), nor did a great many of the people who brought you the information revolution, without which you would not be here complaining about people without degrees!

Would you go to a doctor without formal educational training?

with a doctor or a teacher. Man, you miss the mark by a massive distance. Most all the people elected to serve have no degree IN POLITICAL SCIENCE. Most of them are lawyers...would you want a lawyer removing your kidney? I wonder...

sP

And you don't want educated people doing that? You want a high school graduate passing laws affecting how you received medical treatment?

Really?

However, it is predominantly lawyers and career politicians doing it now. Most high school grads could do as well as most of them and would probably bother to be informed about making a decision rather than just believing that they have earned the right to make it...

I also would not want someone fresh out of college making that decision, regardless of their level of education. I want people who have lived in the real world and had to deal with the same crap that 95% of their constituents have to deal with. I would prefer to pick someone who has been successful at navigating that life in the real world. Does that mean that education counts for nothing? No, I believe it can help you navigate the life you choose...but it is not the sole factor upon which I will either cast or deny my vote.

sP

Your post was about legislators, not doctors or teachers. The idea that post high school education equals competence in governing is beyond ridiculous.

it provides zero guarantee that they are actually educated in the matters they are legislating about.

Either way, their job is to represent, the only education they need is in the will of the people, and no schooling is required for that.

I would go as far as to say that the over-educated more often substitute their own thinking for the will of the people, betraying their duty - and that is no small part of how we got into this mess in the first place (e.g. TARP, opposed over 100:1 by the people, voted in by our highly educated Congressmorons).

Legislation comprehension involved in being a Rep for any district. People like Bachmann and Palin are idiots who should never be involved in deciding any laws for the public. You get tested to be a lawyer, nurse, cop. Why not an elected official? We've had dumb, and we all saw how that worked.

You cannot be a cop, fireman, or teacher without it. So why does a legislator get a free pass.

Here you say it SHOULD be required and in the OP you said it should not be. Are you proposing a TEST before someone run for office? Holy SHIT what a world you would create...

sP

Of how the law works? We have let too many know nothings into office over the years. What's wrong with demanding more from your legislator? I never would have thought this would be a requirement, but with all the Palin's out there it has to make you wonder. I'm willing to bet if Bush was tested, we never would have had to deal with him. The Repukes want to make it harder for the Dem's to vote, so the Dem's should make it harder for the repukes to put an idiot in office.

to serve them. Did it ever occur to you, that with a test, the people writing the test would control who is in office?

I thank God every day people like you are not in charge...your ideas are hideously dangerous.

sP

Michelle Bachmann being one of them. She has a law degree from the College of William and Mary. She's as dumb as a box of rocks. A degree is no guarantee of one's intelligence.

and I know GWB is. Yet I'd be willing to bet very few people would look to them as shining stars of intellect. Meanwhile there are many legislators w/only a HS degree who many would consider highly effective lawmakers and well-read, critical thinkers


BTW, just for kicks, here is a list of US Presidents who did not complete college~

George Washington (The death of his father ended Washington's formal schooling; however, he believed strongly in formal education. In his will, he left money and/or stocks to support three educational institutions.<1>)
Andrew Jackson
Martin Van Buren
William Henry Harrison (attended college but never received a degree)
Zachary Taylor
Millard Fillmore
Abraham Lincoln (had only about a year of formal schooling of any kind)
Andrew Johnson
Grover Cleveland
Harry S. Truman (went to law school but did not receive a degree)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States_by_education

I know I could never pass that kind of test, and I don't want anyone else who couldn't pass to run things in my life. It's only fair. Maybe they could have a special class for those who want to get involved in politics that teach the Constitution, American History, reading comprehension, on college level. At least the basics. When you speak and there are more "and Umms" in your vocabulary then we have a problem.

A degree does not necessarily equate to intelligence.

people who are articulate, educated, intelligent, and so on.

And look what we have. Those people whom we elected - articulate, educated, intelligent, etc. - are spending our dollars on foolishness involving bombing the crap out of people we don't know, they are sending our wives, sons, husbands, cousins to get blown to bits by those people we are bombing the crap out of.

They make decisions that cost the taxpayers dollars, jobs, and their homes. They talk about gutting medicare and social security. They pass laws that allow their minions to spy on us and grope our bodies in the name of security.

Maybe it's time to pick our leaders from the less articulate, the less educated, the less intelligent. Surely those folks cannot do any worse, and they might even do better.

Because they didn't go to law school. There's a course I took in law school called "legislation" which is about how to write a clear law.

They think they can outlaw baggy pants!! :rofl:

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Mostly because I don't have a degree… But also because I don't have any stomach to prostitute myself in our current political process.

I don't want to give up my privacy or the privacy of my family.

I think that most people, whether they're educated or not, get into politics for all the wrong reasons.

(This applies to the FEDERAL Congress, mind you....)

If you are running for the House, I don't think you should have to have one, you ARE, after all, supposed to be the most direct Rep. of the people who actually voted for you, but if you want to run for the Senate, I think you should have to have one, as the upper Chamber has, in MY opinion, a more serious responsibility in that it is designed to act as a check against the rare (but INEVITABLE) Popular Stupid that will emanate form the People's House.

Heres an example....
Homeless Bob (who never went to college) campaigns for the House and gets himself elected 'cause all the homeless people in that district love his ideas on how best to represent them, and this is totally OK with me. Later Homeless Bob wants to run for Senate and the House decides that re-instating Institutionalized Slavery is a great way to generate revenue. I want Homeless Bob (who is now in the Senate)to damn-well understand that Popular Will is irrelevant to this issue, and that he he has a CONSTITUTIONAL OBLIGATION to not vote yes on that bill from the House.

I would prefer that to run for the Federal Senate, you HAVE to have a Master's Degree in something other than History, Politics, or Law (because wouldn't it be nice for a change to actually have Environmental Scientists sitting on Environmental Committees)--and as an aside, I think we need to encourage more of those kinds of "everyday Americans" to actually RUN for those kinds of offices, because their knowledge is probably more relevant to the problems we ALL face at this time, than the ability to do Palin-Style subtle history re-writes from the well of the Senate .

some of the most batshit crazy pieces of legislation anywhere.

Bill Gates, Mark Begich and Harry Truman do not.

But the OK leg, and the OK delegation in DC - OY.
And OY again.

My mom only has a h.s. education, and is an extremely bright and inquisitive person. (but of course, back in the early 50s it wasn't very common for anyone from a poor family, especially a young woman, to go to college.) Also a good lib!