There Are 10 Times As Many Atheists as Mormons: When Will Non-Believers Become a Political Force?

http://www.alternet.org/belief/151267/there_are_10_times_as_many_atheists_as_mormons%3A_when_will_non-believers_become_a_political_force/

The rise of atheists as political players would have positive effects on American society and possibly even the world as a whole.


The propagandists of the religious right shout it aloud as their battle cry: "America is a Christian nation!" And in the trivial sense that ours is a nation populated mostly by Christians, this is true. But in the sense they mean it, that Christianity was intended to occupy a privileged place in the law -- or worse, that Christianity was intended to be the only belief professed by Americans -- it couldn't be more false. Although religion in general, and Christianity in particular, play a dominant role in our public life, ours is a secular nation by law. And befitting that heritage, America has always played host to a lively tradition of freethought, unorthodoxy and religious dissent, one that dates back to our founding generation.

To name just one example, Thomas Jefferson rejected miracles and special revelation -- he famously created his own version of the New Testament, which kept only the moral teachings and parables and cut out all the miracle stories -- and encouraged his contemporaries to "question with boldness even the existence of a God." He himself was a deist, not an atheist, but this subtle distinction was lost on his contemporaries, who hurled accusations at him every bit as vicious as today's TV attack ads. For instance, in the presidential campaign of 1800, the Gazette of the United States editorialized as follows:

At the present solemn moment the only question to be asked by every American, laying his hand on his heart, is 'shall I continue in allegiance to GOD---AND A RELIGIOUS PRESIDENT; or impiously declare for JEFFERSON---AND NO GOD!!!'

More at the link --

That will get us some respect, and their enemies will be our friends.

I'll start the ball rolling: Kill the Mormons!

Mormons agree on a leader and a cultural philosophy. Atheists never will.

We have a leader... several of them... Carl Sagan, Steven Hawking, Noam Chomsky, Warren Buffet, George Carlin...to name a few.

We have a cultural philosophy... humanism.

Problem is, we're too damn busy running our own lives to try to run other people's. Hence.. no pushy atheists with their tracts on your front porch. No atheist marches on DC to get our legislation passed. No atheist takeovers of small towns.. hell, big towns.

Theists hate people who believe in gods different from their own, but they reserve a special animus for those who disregard their beliefs entirely.

How Christians discriminate against us. There are still 12 states that have laws barring atheists om state office, despite the constitutional prohibition.

When I ran for office, I was asked about my religion. Which church did I belong to? I told the questioner, none, and I am proud of it, she began calling people to vote against me, because my secular nature would be a bad example for the "childrens" and would lead them to paganism and Satan worship. I was tempted to add the flying spaghetti monster, but that was way above her capacity to grasp. I lost by 17 votes.

That's it, right there. Only, they believe YOU are a Satanist. Their little minds can't grasp the concept of "no" God, so they assume you've been brainwashed by the devil himself. To be honest, that's what they believe of any Christian who isn't their brand of Christian.




DISCLAIMER: Not all Christians, obviously. I'm talking about the wingnuts.

but that "some" group seems to be strongly connected to the GOP and the TeaBaggers.

He is not my leader and none of the ones you list would want to be. The last thing a community of free thinkers needs is leaders!

I think you'd be well advised to drop the "leader" idea, or you'll quickly make the case for the one who says atheists can't agree on anything.

Atheism is not about leaders or authorities.

There is one basis for atheism: expectation of evidence for claims of gods and divine beings. In the absence of such evidence, they to be rejected. Those who try to arrogate moral authority or power to themselves on the basis of such claims are to be opposed. The assumption that such characters (hierophants, popes, prophets and preachers) made it up as a con game is to be allowed.

Simple, no?

It would be a real novelty :rofl:

Now go out and fuck whoever agrees to fuck you back.

You can be an Atheist and believe we should all help our fellow man as a social community...or you can be an Atheist and believe we should each be independents and look out for our selves...

You can be an Atheist and believe that women should have the unfettered right to make birth choices regarding their bodies...or you can be an Atheist and believe that any aspiring life deserves a chance and that any abortion should be prohibited, absent life of the mother being at risk...

You can be an Atheist and believe that America should impose its economic and political principles on dictatorships worldwide...or you can be an Atheist and believe that any America shouldn't concern itself with anything outside our borders...

Getting all Atheists, or even a majority, to agree on a definition of Humanisn would likely be an exercise in futility.

He is so far libertarian, he believes that all forms of social safety net should be eliminated, all forms of government supported arts/humanities programs eliminated, total capitalistic society with zero safety nets and if you fail, you starve and you should never help someone else at the expense of your bottom line, and totally disbelieves in ANY form of god/religion and feels if you believe in any sort of god/religion/etc, then you are an illogical imbecile.

And he is a doctor to boot!

Because that's her philosophy exactly.

So what's the problem with atheists then?

I've yet to meet a humanist that didn't support a woman's right to choose or helping the poor. There are a lot of atheists that aren't humanists or anything like humanists. I have no idea of the exact percentages. They're a minority, but I'm not sure by how much.

The doctor Bowanzi is referring to is one of the Randroids. They're kind of our version of believers in the prosperity gospel. They've just replaced "Believe hard enough in (deity)" with random quotes from Rand. Despite following the writings of a woman they tend to hate women and think bodily autonomy is for the menfolk.

And they will MOSTLY agree that free thought, education and questioning authority is necessary for intellectual life.

It's a start. :shrug:

--imm

And why does God need a starship?

I'll tell you one fucking thing that all atheists agree on: Religion has NO PLACE in government, or in making decisions that affect everyone.

Who leads the Catholics?

Who leads the Fundie Baptists?

Imagine 'Athiests United?'

How do they arrive at that ratio anyways? From googling, it looks like there are roughly 6 million Mormons and roughly 5 or so million self identified atheists. Some places stretched the atheist number by including agnostics and secular people but that isn't a fair inclusion. I am agnostic and don't have any particular faith that I cling to but am I atheist? Not in the least. I just don't partake in any mainstream religion at this point.

I would say that if there were 30 million true real atheists out there excluding secular and agnostic, then that might be a whole nother story.

For instance, even though a member may have died, they are routinely carried on membership rolls until their 120th birthday. Also, fewer than 1 million of the 6 million members claimed by the mormon church in the US actually attend services on even a sporadic basis. The rest are cultural, or "jack" mormons.

and I wouldn't be shocked if they still had her listed

Sorry, you don't get to define what is a "real" atheist.

The planet has plenty of people who aren't into the religious bullshit, but they don't fight it.

In the United States, there is a Christian cultural hegemony, but not necessarily an active majority. Most people don't bother with church services except very occasionally. They grew up in a religious tradition but it means increasingly less to them. However, active religionists whine all day when challenged by the mere thought that someone doesn't believe in their Santa Claus. They're very aggressive and constantly acting wounded. So it's taboo for most people to think about it too much. They avoid it.

As we go on, that number of active Christian-warrior types will diminish radically. It's a rotten edifice. It just needs active public unashamed profile for non-believers long enough. It's started and it will one day be an avalanche.

What nonbelievers need is to come out.

Our actions speak louder than any words could.

Remember, the title of the thread was regarding the number of atheists over Mormons and why can't they become a political party of some sort in the US, not the world.

Its funny, your post describes me exactly. I grew up in a Christian cultural hegemony but I haven't been an active "Christian" in at least 20+ years. Last time I went to church (not my choice) was well over 10 years ago. But I am not atheist whatsoever nor are quite a few of my friends who like me, just don't believe in "organized religion" yet have their own personal belief.

But thanks for the interesting story.

..as soon as the Atheist argument packs as powerful a message, the easily lead will follow...Unfortunately there are no shiny buildings with flashy snakeoil salesmen preaching the lesson of enlightenment because if everyone suddenly figured out that there was no god, those guys would be out of business in a heartbeat.

If you say you're an atheist, you're considered to be in league with Satan.

Many people I know have strong Christian faith. Just about all of them know I am an atheist and I've yet to hear a single unkind word from them about it.

I'm sure such people are out there, but I can't say they can be found among anybody I've ever known.

I think there is a difference between lacking religious faith and being hostile to religious faith. I'm a lifelong atheist, but it's not something that's at the core of my identity, nor do I hold much antipathy toward people of faith. If anything, for people like me, atheism is a reaction against the practice of putting faith (or lack thereof) at the center of your identity. I don't feel any more kinship with an atheist than I do with a believer.

That being said, I don't see anything wrong with atheists organizing as atheists, but it's probably not something I would feel much desire to get involved with. Think of it like this: People who don't care about politics don't organize into the 'League of People Who Don't Give a Fuck,' they just don't vote or get involved, which is what not giving a fuck is really about. Same thing with many atheists. They don't care much about faith, so they don't see much of a need to get together on issues regarding faith.

or other random name. That would be awesome, atheists praying to their god.

in this fundie religious state of Georgia. There is an amendment on the ballot in November to allow alcohol sales to be voted by individual counties. Even our Republican governor endorsed it.

and can't be bothered to unite for political goals.

Unless that political goal advances their singular obsession with God, that is.

Your fairy tales are hardly an obsession of mine.

Imaginary things are not worth thinking about.

or that big man in the sky, but there is a possibility that Nessie does exist.

Otherwise you really have no clue.

Strange, ain't it, how people who share such deep connections cannot unite?

Atheism is as much a unifying influence as not collecting stamps is a unifying influence.

fiercely arguing and ridiculing stamp-collectors in internet forums, or pooling together to buy billboards and bus adverts, or writing tons of books about their non-hobby. Nor do they seem to have emblems, quotes, sig lines, bumper stickers, etc etc etc etc etc...

atheists are thinking about? They do spend some time thinking about those who are obsessed with God thoughts.

Atheist build elaborate buildings and gather there 3 times a week to discuss non-god.

that, and the silly rules about sex.

Sorry you find it so personally distressing and bothersome that not everyone pays lip service to invisible sky-men.

I like the insistence that they aren't focused on their non-belief, as they complain about not being recognized as a political group based around their common non-belief.

From what I've seen, the non-believers here talk about religion and God more than most believers I've ever run into. Of course, was it Augustine that said believers should be thankful for those folks because they make people read their Bibles? Something like that. Whatever, though, it's just rather funny to me.

My post #71 covers this ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=1300570&mesg_id=1309140

I paraphrased Augustine, who would of course be talking about the Bible. Nowhere did I make the statement you ascribe to me.

You refer to "they" ... you mean "non-believers" ... yes?

Then, you refer to "believers" generically .... and then quote Aquinas on "believers". Are those 2 different groups of believers?

Why should I take your post as anything other than a statement on Christian believers and their need to focus on the bible as their source?

Obsessed? Where did you pull that one out of, your divine ass?

You probably shouldn't post until you do a little research. It'll make you look less...dumb.

It went like this ...

I grew up in an area where numerous flavors of Christianity told me THEIR flavor was the right one. They also told me that if I did not listen to their elders, I'd go to hell. But their various elders spewed disparate paths to "salvation".

And so, because I did not want to burn in their lake of fire ... I started to STUDY God. I learned about the various Christian flavors. And Eastern religions, Judaism, and Islam.

I found that basically none of the wise ones knew DICK about God. Except how to USE God, or the idea of God, to control others. To scare children into obedience. So on.

So yes, many Atheists have a strong focus on God ... we did not simply accept the religion we were indoctrinated into as children. We exapnded our view of God, studied on that.

And then concluded, that God is a nice idea, but little more.

I'll give you different example of what I mean. My father in law is a devote Christian. And he is a smart man. He's studied. And he comes across as very open minded. For his birthday one year, I bought him a book on world religions, among other things, the book discussed similarities and differences across the major religions.

My wife and I thought he would enjoy it. About a month after we gave it to him, he asked my wife why we would ever give him such a book. He said, why would I ever care to know what those people in those other religions believe? I don't care what they believe, and how it is similar or dissimilar to what I believe ... I already KNOW.

And I think THAT may be the difference between many "believers" and Atheists ... Atheists actually wanted to understand the choices and after examining them PICKED.

Some don't want to examine the choices.

Atheists, agnostics, and non-believers are the rational underpinning of the Democratic Party. We are the ones who demand ethical practice from our elected officials. We are the ones who understand the logical conclusions to be drawn from destroying our environment, our infrastructure, our industry, our middle class and our social safety net. We are the ones who constantly ask our nation to apply the principles of the New Testament, not because Jesus told us to but because it's good policy, and we don't hide behind the grotesque mask of religious righteousness to do it (because, of course, those people don't actually wish to practice that good policy).

Most of us who are non-believers are so because we've applied rational thought to the question of religion just as we apply it to (and reject) compassionate conservatism, trickle-down economics, deregulation, self-policing entities, fascism, jingoism, the profitability of war, and Santa Claus. Therefore we are rarely Republicans, and that party is morally and intellectually adrift as a result, whereas our party profits (and suffers) from an overabundance of both of those things.

probably part of the reason why religion was so successful. Being sensible often counts for less than being able to rile up a large group of people behind some centralized leadership.

Or even many. But then again jews are seen as messiah killers by some, they still organize. Mormons and scientologists aren't exactly highly respect, but they still organize. Muslims are seen as terrorists but they still organize.

And so on.

I think it's more the general apathy and lacking of some motivating centralized tenet than anything else.

Being hated doesn't prevent one from forming group to attempt to influence policy. Otherwise the Klan and NAMBLA wouldn't exist.

when we do not believe in any deities at all?

Some people have a tendency to freak out when their cherished beliefs are challenged; esp. when we Atheists say mean, bigoted things like "I don't believe in God"

My feeling is that a lot of people aren't used to Atheists who don't meekly mumble under our breath at the pervasive, if only centimeters deep, religiosity in American life. Like gay people, they're 'okay, really' with us- as long as we stay in that closet.

It's like telling Dave Matthews fans that the guy kinda sucks.

Yes, the Emperor has no clothes--- and lots of us are pretty sure that God is just pretend-- but it gets tiresome fighting about it.

You really think the problem people have with you is when you simply state you don't believe. You honestly don't understand that it's the overwhelmingly frequent corresponding insults and attitudes that people object to, do you?

How insulting is that, to have some zealot come to your door to tell you you don't believe the correct thing. Does that get your panties in a twist as well? Do you not think it's insulting when people are told they'll burn in Hell for not believing in a deity?

Now what?

They also enter their ideas into things like scientific debates, then engage in a lot of 'special pleading' for their ideas, like the idea that "God made everything" is so intrinsically truth-containing that it, unlike other assertions made in a scientific context or debate, doesn't need actual evidence to back it up.

THEN I see- particularly on DU- a lot of doubletalk around this particular area: One, we are constantly hectored and reminded not to conflate fundamentalist, right-wing Christians with "all Christians" or (my favorite) "Real" Christians (who are hanging out next to the True Scotsmen, no doubt) ...right? So, Fundy Christians aren't ALL Christians and they aren't the Christians on DU. Right? Good? Okay, keep following... so THEN, invariably, when a thread comes out criticizing or even (oh no!) ridiculing fundy, right-wing christians or their ludicrous beliefs (witness the 'rapture' we recently had) immediately a gang of DU Christians protests that they are personally being picked on, personally being mocked, and again, you get special pleading about how no matter how ridiculous a belief is -like the rapture happening a few weeks ago- it must not be mocked or even critically analyzed, lest DU be engaged in 'religion bashing'.

You can't have it both ways.

This is less so on the left ... but this is what the right wing lives on.

If you DARE say you do not believe as they do, YOU have attacked them.

I will agree that some "non-believers" go to far in attacking those who "believe". Calling them dumb, etc. That's wrong also.

Your biggest problem, though, is that you don't have a building where you go to worship and then guilt people into donating money so you can then turn around and use that money against people you don't like. Once that gets all cleared up, then Atheism can become a political force. :)

Most of us here are Atheists. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=286531&mesg_id=286531

We need to get more of us out there to say we are good people, we have morals, but we don't believe in your superstition. Our voice needs to be heard.

Start foundations, PACs, think tanks and some sort of media campaign, you know… stuff like that?

The Mormons ARE organized. i don't think that some amorphous and disconnected class of non-believers can hope to counter them unless they organize as well.

which is why labor unions are being attacked so easily. Being able to attack from the shadows as a collective, and quickly disperse is far more effective as the hacktivists have shown.