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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:44 AM
Original message
Japanese professor: Melted fuel has gone through containers & sinking into ground below + much more
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/perspectives/column/archive/news/2011/06/20110620p2a00m0na005000c.html

<...> The crisis at the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant is still not over. Far from it, there are signs that it is getting worse. <...>

In a TV Asahi program on June 16, made the following comment:

“As far as I can tell from the announcements made by Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), the nuclear fuel that has melted down inside reactors at the Fukushima nuclear plant has gone through the bottom of the containers, which are like pressure cookers, and is lying on the concrete foundations, sinking into the ground below. We have to install a barrier deep in the soil and build a subterranean dam as soon as possible to prevent groundwater contaminated with radioactive materials from leaking into the ocean.”

His comment captured public interest and when I asked a high-ranking government official about it, the official said that construction of an underground dam was indeed being prepared. But when I probed further, I found that the project was in limbo due to opposition from TEPCO.

Sumio Mabuchi, an aide to Prime Minister Naoto Kan who is dealing with nuclear power plant issues, holds the same concerns as those expressed by Koide and has sought an announcement on construction of an underground dam, but TEPCO has resisted such a move. <...>

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http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Missouri_River_Levee_Overtopped_124156169.html

http://www.action3news.com/story/14937119/levee-about-to-break-near-brownville

Levee near Nebraska’s Cooper nuke plant “about to break” and “at risk of washing away completely” after being overtopped Sunday (VIDEO)

Emergency management officials say the area is turning out to be a total loss causing sandbagging to stop. Instead, relief efforts are now more focused on locations to the south of Brownville.

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http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/06/contaminated-water-processing-at.html

Report: Fukushima reactor water may be 144 times as radioactive as anticipated — Would be almost 20 times total Chernobyl release

<...> Well, over 100,000 tonnes of highly contaminated water at Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant are estimated to contain 720,000 terabecquerels of radioactive materials.

If Kurion’s vessel absorbed enough radioactive materials in 5 hours and it should have taken 30 days, as I wrote in my previous post, the water was 144 times as radioactive as the system had anticipated.

If the water actually turns out to be 144 times as radioactive, the Fukushima accident would need a new INES category and should not be placed in the same category (Level 7) as the Chernobyl accident which released only 5.6 million terabecquerels of radioactive materials. Maybe it should be simply called “Level Fukushima”.

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http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/asiapacific/news/article_1646404.php/Japan-pumps-water-into-reactor-to-contain-radioactivity

1.6 billion becquerels of radioactive materials released from Reactor No. 2 late Sunday, says TEPCO

TEPCO also began late Sunday to release air containing radioactive substances from the building of reactor 2 by opening its doors.

An estimated 1.6 billion becquerels of radioactive materials were released, compared with 500 million becquerels when the double doors of the building of reactor 1 were opened in May, the Jiji Press agency reported, citing TEPCO.

Spent fuel pool No. 4 water level drops to 1/3 capacity — High levels of radiation released after ‘equipment’ in pool was exposed


Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO), which runs the Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power Station, started Sunday to pour water into a pool on the top floor of reactor 4 of the six-reactor plant after it discovered the water level had dropped to about one-third of its capacity, public broadcaster NHK reported.

The drop caused equipment in the pool to be exposed, releasing high levels of radiation, officials said. <...>

The radiation levels at reactor 4 have been preventing workers from entering the structure to conduct repairs.



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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2005289/The-toxic-truth-Japans-harmony-tsunami.html

Report: TEPCO paid for creation of a blacklist of actors and musicians who are against nuclear industry


According to a well-known Japanese documentary maker, TEPCO paid for the creation of a blacklist of actors and musicians who are against the nuclear industry.

When one actor, Taro Yamamoto, joined an anti-nuclear protest, he lost his part in a popular soap opera. Yamamoto’s ‘crime’ was to say that schoolchildren in Fukushima should not be subjected to the same annual radiation dose (20 microsieverts per year) as nuclear power workers in Europe.

snip
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http://journalstar.com/news/local/article_fa4d05ec-8cb3-51ae-9124-4c9bcb5155ef.html

Water level rose almost 3 feet during weekend at Brownville gauge near Cooper nuke plant

“Our guys were reporting it was leveling off,” Mark Becker, spokesman for Nebraska Public Power District, said Sunday afternoon. But after he commented, the level rose another half foot. <...>

NPPD, which owns and operates the Cooper power plant, said the “notification of unusual event” it declared was made as part of emergency preparedness procedures the station follows when flooding occurs. <...>

Water levels at the Brownville gauge increased approximately two feet in a 24-hour period from 5:30 a.m. Saturday to 5:30 a.m. Sunday.

By Sunday morning, the river stage at Brownville had reached 44.4 feet, surpassing the previous record crest of 44.3 feet set in 1993 flooding. By 3 p.m., the Brownville gauge was at 44.7 feet, the equivalent of 901.2 feet above sea level. Three hours later, the level had risen another half foot. <...>


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http://www.wowt.com/home/headlines/Rain_Showers_This_Morning_124128519.html

Tornado watch near Ft. Calhoun nuke plant, flash flood warning near Cooper nuke plant — Heavy rain making flooding situation worse

Heavy rain making flooding situation worse

A flash flood warning is in effect until 4:30 a.m. Monday for northeastern Otoe County in Nebraska and southern Fremont County and southern Page County in Iowa. A tornado watch is in effect until 4 a.m. for southeast Nebraska and southwest Iowa, including Omaha, Council Bluffs and Lincoln. <...>

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flashback

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/dont-be-fooled-by-the-spin-radiation-is-bad-20110407-1d63z.html

Nuclear Radiologist: Don’t be fooled by paid industry “consultants” — Low doses of ionizing radiation do cause cancer


Dr Peter Karamoskos is a nuclear radiologist and a public representative on the radiation health committee of the Australian Radiation Protection and Nuclear Safety Agency

… There seems to be a never-ending cabal of paid industry scientific ”consultants” who are more than willing to state the fringe view that low doses of ionising radiation do not cause cancer and, indeed, that low doses are actually good for you and lessen the incidence of cancer. …

Ionising radiation is a known carcinogen. This is based on almost 100 years of cumulative research including 60 years of follow-up of the Japanese atom bomb survivors. The International Agency for Research in Cancer (IARC, linked to the World Health Organisation) classifies it as a Class 1 carcinogen, the highest classification indicative of certainty of its carcinogenic effects.

In 2006, the US National Academy of Sciences released its Biological Effects of Ionising Radiation (VII) report, which focused on the health effects of radiation doses at below 100 millisieverts. This was a consensus review that assessed the world’s scientific literature on the subject at that time. It concluded: “. . . there is a linear dose-response relationship between exposure to ionising radiation and the development of solid cancers in humans. It is unlikely that there is a threshold below which cancers are not induced.”

The most comprehensive study of nuclear workers by the IARC, involving 600,000 workers exposed to an average cumulative dose of 19mSv, showed a cancer risk consistent with that of the A-bomb survivors. …

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http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110619/ap_on_re_as/as_japan_earthquake


Before 3-11 Japan Had "The Worlds Safest Nuclear Plants" According To Most Experts, Now -Associated Press: "New Report - Shows TEPCO Unprepared" Chaos amid the desperate and ultimately unsuccessful battle to protect the Fukushima Dai-ichi nuclear plant from meltdown

TOKYO – A new report says Japan's tsunami-ravaged nuclear plant was so unprepared for the disaster that workers had to bring protective gear and an emergency manual from distant buildings and borrow equipment from a contractor. The report, released Saturday by plant operator Tokyo Electric Power Co., is based on interviews of workers and plant data.

The report revealed insufficient preparations at the plant that TEPCO hadn't previously acknowledged. It said plant workers had a disaster drill just a week before the tsunami and "everyone was familiar with emergency exits," but it apparently did not help them cope with the crisis.

A fire engine at the plant couldn't reach the unit because the tsunami left a huge tank blocking the driveway. Workers destroyed a power-operated gate to bring in the engine that arrived at the unit hours later. It was early morning when they finally started pumping water into the reactor — but the core had already melted by then.

Other workers were tasked with releasing pressure from Unit 1's containment vessel to avoid an explosion. But first they had to get the manual, which was not in the control room but in a separate office building at the plant. Aftershocks struck as they retrieved it.

snip

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http://www.youtube.com/user/playbacklapompe


Alex, Frenchman living in Tokyo: “All my videos regarding Fukushima have been cancelled from YouTube” — Not one left this morning


ALL MY VIDEOS REGARDING FUKUSHIMA HAVE BEEN CANCELLED FROM YOUTUBE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!­!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NO ONE LEFT THIS MORNING !!!
h/t thetruthaboutfukushima

UPDATE: <...> His videos on the topic of Fukushima had been on average getting about 4-5000 views but suddenly yesterday after a video he recorded in French (vast majority have been in English) got to around 65,000 views and now all of his videos going back to March 12 are gone. I have been watching his videos since day 1 while in Japan and he was of a great comfort and source of information. His videos on this matter are an important part of history and it is quite odd and immoral that Youtube simply remove them all. <...>

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http://mdn.mainichi.jp/perspectives/news/20110618p2a00m0na020000c.html

Major Japanese Paper: Not clear what officials mean by ‘stability’, when melted fuel may be outside containment vessel

One cannot help but wonder how far efforts being made by the national government and Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO) to bring the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant under control have progressed.

Two months have passed since TEPCO first unveiled a roadmap for bringing the crippled plant under control, but various problems that have occurred since then show the roadmap was overly optimistic. <...>

It is also not clear what officials mean when they refer to stability of the plant, when we have not only a meltdown in the inner containment vessels, but the possibility of melted fuel having made its way to the outer containment vessels. <...>

The central government and TEPCO may not have changed the time frames for their roadmaps, but the fact is that a massive number of issues remain to be addressed before the Fukushima No. 1 Nuclear Power Plant is brought under control.



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kick-ass-bob Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. It's safe and clean!!!!
Right up until it isn't.

And then it's REALLY not.
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Patiod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Someone on DU likened it to making electricity with botulism toxin
Imagining that it was something that worked really well, unless, of course, there was a problem.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #5
36. But botulism clears up wrinkles
so it is perfectly natural and safe, no?

:-)
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
61. Einstein commented that they were using nuclear reactors to boil water for steam -- !!!
leaving us to use our own common sense -- !!

Too many Americans still trust capitalism and "experts" -- !!!

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Beginning to wonder....
We've all heard the old saying about ""living like there is no tomorrow"", ..!..

And coupled with the reality of "over the top" nuclear possibilities which are now boiling over, I am seriously undertaking a study of just how to live like there is no tomorrow.

Am open to ideas, thoughts and feelings about changing course.

*******

Idea for you tube video: "Please, don't nuke me, bro...."
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
47. If even half the claims made in the OP were true, you might have a point.
But they're not. Most of them are either outright falsehoods or pseudoscience. Like the "low level nuclear radiation" nonsense, being recycled by the same handful of people, despite the fact that their claims have been repeatedly proven false by scientific study. Instead, they just insist that there's a big conspiracy to silence them. Or the completely unfounded claim that the fuel is burning through the containment structure, because some people can't understand the difference between the pressure vessel and the containment structure.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #47
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 03:06 AM
Response to Reply #68
69. Saying it's true doesn't make it so. Science is used to determine fact from fiction.
And the "low level radiation" nonsense has never had ANY scientific evidence to back it up. You cannot find a study which suggests that the levels they're talking about have any substantive effect on cancer risk. More to the point, you casually mix up the kinds of dosages talked about by the "low level radiation" believers and those used in radiography which are literally more than 100 times higher--and even then still not high enough to cause notable damage unless you're exposed to them for hours at a time, every single day. It's that kind of belief without the knowledge to back it up that constitutes pseudoscience, and which reduces debate to accusing others of "taking the koolaid."
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Octafish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Not even a blip on my tee vee or noosepaper.
I guess the publishers must think it's not an important story.

I'm glad you do, stockholmer! Thank you very much!
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Raschel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. They should have built the reactors to resemble wieners. Or named it the Wiener plant.
Maybe we'd hear more about it then.
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. +1
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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
41. The Wiener Plant...
its core is busting out :)
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paparush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 07:13 AM
Response to Reply #41
75. Something... Something.. RODS!
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
62. SILENCE is also an answer -- !!
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
3. They might as well use Tupperware
the way it's going.
I hope they don't forget to "burp" it.
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City Lights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
4. Interesting information about Alex's videos.
I watched and appreciated many of them.

What's up with YouTube? :tinfoilhat:
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. That stood out for me as well. What the heck is up with that?
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
45. The ony way I can see this happening is with a copyright complaint? nt
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PufPuf23 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
9. A sad thank you. kr
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
10. k/r
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meow mix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
11. dont worry! the denialists will be along shortly to make this all better
with thier happy nuke friendly shilling.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 10:56 AM
Response to Original message
12. K & R nt
:mad:
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
13. If they're water in the fuel rod tanks, how can the rods still be melting and working downward
Into the earth? That part doesn't make sense.

Now if the scientist is saying that, in the first few days when the rods weren't cooled and actively melting, they punched through the containment before being cooled and solidified with water, and radioactive material can now escape through those ruptures, that makes a lot more sense.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. this isn't the spent fuel rods, this is the active reactor core n/t
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. But they've been injecting water into the cores this entire time too
So again, how is there still molten material to continue melting if it's being submerged in water?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Water kills fire, right?
Ever hear of underwater flares?
Surrounded by water, they still burn. Basic science.

These cores are, in a simple sense, like underwater flares.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. The cores weren't on fire; they were melting due to radioactive decay heat
Underwater flares burn due to a chemical reaction; the reactor rods were melting due to radioactive decay putting out heat that couldn't be removed due to lack of circulating water. The water boiled away, at which point the rods overheated and melted down.

Now that water is being pumped into the cores again, how could the cores still be actively melting down into the earth?

"These cores are, in a simple sense, like underwater flares."

:rofl: Are you serious?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. You're almost there
These cores ARE chemical reactions. Out-of-control chemical reactions.

They were under control, but they got too hot and now water can't control the chemical reactions.
Just like underwater flares, in a simple sense. Duh!
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. You really think a nuclear reactor's core is a chemical reaction?
I suggest you either take some basic physics and chemistry classes, or barring that, google "nuclear vs. chemical reactions". For example:

http://www.differencebetween.net/science/difference-between-nuclear-reaction-and-chemical-reaction/
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. You are right
I was just trying to keep it simple for you. And relate to you how stuff burns even while surrounded by water.

Oops, it's not really burning, is it? Then what is it?

Basically, they let the reactions get out of control. Once upon a time they controlled the reactions by using water under close containment, but that containment went poof, so.... burn baby burn. It's out of control and water makes little difference, except to bleed of radiation which ends up in the Pacific ocean.

So, why don't they just flood the reactors with the Pacific? Got a link to that?
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
51. Burning is an oxygen reaction
splitting an atom creates heat. No oxygen neccesary.
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AnotherDreamWeaver Donating Member (917 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #26
57. putting water on burning magnesium only helps it burn....
is that like what we have with a melted fuel rod?
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. Here's some pertinent info from a March article in Scientific American
Note: since this is from March, it's from before the core meltdown had been verified and written from a point of view that it has not occurred.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=fukushima-core
Worst-Case Scenario at Fukushima Power Plant

And just what is that worst-case scenario? "They're venting in order to keep the containment vessel from failing. But if a core melts, it will slump to the bottom of the reactor vessel, probably melt through the reactor vessel onto the containment floor. It's likely to spread as a molten pool—like lava—to the edge of the steel shell and melt through. That would result in a containment failure in a matter of less than a day. It's good that it's got a better containment system than Chernobyl, but it's not as strong as most of the reactors in this country."



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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. And that's what it likely did, until water pumping was re-established
And the melted material cooled and re-solidified.

My beef was that the OP makes it sound like the core material is STILL molten and STILL burning a hole into the earth to this very day. I just couldn't see how that was possible with water now being added to the core.
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stockholmer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. because the containment vessel is breached there is no way to create a long lasting pool of water
and yes, all 3 cores are still molten, and boring down through the rest of the substructure
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
30. Two thoughts from a non-scientist (me)
1) In burning down, the core may have created a space in which water sufficient to cool it can not reach it.
And recall, all along they have not been able to identify accurately where all the water is leaking/draining/evaporating away -just that it has been doing that.

2) I found the lava analogy in the article I posted interesting. Something else about lava, it can keep burning underwater. If it burns so hot it can do that, why can't a melted core?

http://dailyuw.com/2010/1/4/scientists-view-flowing-lava-underwater-first-time/
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:27 PM
Response to Reply #23
38. "I just couldn't see how that was possible with water now being added to the core. "
Molten uranium behaves very differently than molten iron, for example. You're thinking in terms of mechanics, and not in the nuclear reactions happening.

The main hope is that by melting onto the bottom of the containment vessel, the fuel dispersed/diluted enough as to reduce its criticality.

But the excess heat is significant, spent uranium rods for example, spend years in water pools cooling down.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #23
46. Rods allow water to circulate and cool the fuel. But when it melts down...
It collects into a single mass with much less surface area to make contact with a coolant.

--imm
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #17
67. Only these flares do not use oxygen or chemistry. They use neutrons and nuclear reactions. nt
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Because this is a nuclear decaying reaction
which can go for either seconds, minutes, or hundreds of years, depending on the atom involved.


The heat depends more on the criticality of the chain reaction than the environmental temperatures, you're thinking of a material like iron which has been externally heated. Nuclear fuel is internally heated, so to speak.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
66. It isn't submerged. It is a lump sitting on the concrete floor, covered
with water, which cools the top surface, but the heat generated inside the lump is happily melting the concrete and blending it with the radioactive fuel into lava. It will stop because of the resulting dilution with liquid concrete, eventually. Or it can burn through the floor.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #13
25. A nuclear reaction that is in progress,
Will strip the hydrogen right off the water it comes in contact with, leaving a massive, explosive hydrogen bubble(like the ones that blew out the secondary containment buildings at Fukushima) and oxygen. Trying to cool down rods with water isn't as simple as spraying the water onto them, as the folks as Fukushima have been doing. In many cases, as we've seen at Fukushima, it makes matters worse.
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Yes, we did see several hydrogen explosions in the first month
But that doesn't explain how the core could still be molten and burning into the earth to this very day. They did add water to the cores, they did cause explosions as the water reacted with the molten cores, but they then continued to add water despite the explosions because it was all they could do for cooling. As far as I know, they are still circulating water today, which is why I asked how the OP could claim there was still molten core material?
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Again, you can't just spray water on a nuclear reaction
And hope it cools down. The only reason we're not seeing more hydrogen explosions is because the hydrogen is venting directly into the atmosphere.

Adding water and more water is not an effective method of cooling down a nuclear reaction. You've actually got to get the core to back to sub-critical levels of activity. The only sure fire method at this point is the Chernobyl solution, a mixture of concrete, boric acid, lead, and clay pumped in by the multi-ton load. But apparently, despite the calls for this very solution by top nuclear safety experts around the world, TEPCO is far too intent on saving the remaining assets, and thus continues the inane practice of spraying water.

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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #29
43. Yes you can, because adding water removes heat.
It's a fairly standard 'hot rock' scenario. Dump a hot rock into a bucket of water and the water will increase in temperature as the rock temperature decreases. In the case of nuclear you remove the heat generated from decay heat by adding water and bleeding steam. Turning water to steam requires about 970x the energy that is required to bring water up 1 degree Fahrenheit. So basically you add water, assuming the pressure is 400psi it will boil around 400F. Every pound added at say 60F absorbs 400F-60F(BTU/F*lb) so 340BTU/lb then boiling that is another 970BTU/lb. Now we get to the strange part, steam is compressible while water isn't really. So when you remove steam it drops the pressure, which causes more water to flash to steam (removing another 970BTU/lb) and then the pressure returns to saturation while the water level drops. Now what you're supposed to do is to cycle the water around and then have another tank of water attached to the reactor for pressure control that has a steam bubble in it for pressure control, then vent steam from there, add water to the core, and keep all the pressure the same. The issue with hydrogen generation only comes into play when the 'hot rock' reaches around 1300F and can break the chemical bonds holding the water together. Another issue is that there is a 'shower head' at the top of the pressurizer which causes gases to come out of solution so the hydrogen and oxygen gets separated and sent down the discharge piping. Since they're not expecting flammable gas this piping isn't equipped to handle flare offs. In the case of fukushima the vent offs all congregated inside the building above the containment. flammability of H2 gas is 4-74% by concentration with air. What should have been installed is a air recirculation system with a flare off for use during scenarios like this.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. I think the previous poster was talking about stopping nuclear decay/chain reaction
not about how to go about removing the heat from it.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. possibly, though they've already added boric acid to the water.
So that should force the core into a subcritical state, even if the control rods are totally removed. Also since this is a BWR the control rods enter the core from the bottom, which means if the core had penetrated primary containment it would take the control rods too (plus other preloaded poisons in the core). In addition to the primary coolant spilling out with the molten fuel into the drywell. So we're talking about something covered in borated water no matter what. You can't actually stop nuclear decay (without using nuclear capture/ejection to correct the nuclides of concern), though you could spread it over such a wide area that it would no longer be noticeable, which would also have the effect of stopping any fission reactions. But I'm pretty sure they would like to prevent that from occurring. So typically when talking about nuclear decay heat, you are in fact simply talking about heat removal/management.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #43
72. Gee, I just love it when non-scientists, and non-experts in the field try to explain such things
First of all, water is indeed compressible, after all, they have that entire field known as hydraulics, which is basic around the compression of water and other liquids.

Second, we're not dumping a hot rock into a tub of water. TEPCO is haphazardly dumping water on a melted core that is at critical mass. When a core is critical mass, things change, like the fact that it is the radiation that strips the hydrogen from water, not the heat.

Go do what I did, go work in the field a number of years, and educate yourself.
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Sirveri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #72
79. I used to work in nuclear reactors myself from '05 to '08.
And yes, water is 'slightly' compressible. However hydraulics works on the principle that liquid fluids are not compressible. Otherwise you would not be able to use hydraulic fluids to transfer pressure from one point in the system to another. Furthermore the pressurizer works by using gas as a compressible fluid to absorb pressure shocks from temperature changes, which is why it's not a good idea to operate the plant solid. It's also why temperature has a much greater effect on core reactivity than pressure, and why we control for temperature and basically ignore pressure coefficient of reactivity. -2.0 Sk/F outweighs +0.005 Sk/psig. Pressure changes do not cause significant changes in liquid density. Hence liquids are non-compressible.

Of course if you actually were qualified to operate a nuclear plant, you'd know this. Considering how central these basic concepts are to actually understanding the plant and completing actual qualifications, I'd really love to know what exactly your 'field experience' is.

As for a critical mass, that has very little to do with the situation, since gamma rays re-bond water and oxygen to reform the water molecules. That's why we add hydrogen to the primary as an oxygen scavenger (since oxygen is corrosive to plant materials). The issue with hydrogen generation in the core has to deal with thermal electrolysis, which occurs when the cladding reaches around 1700F. So in this case, reducing heat is very much related to reduction in hydrogen gas generation in a shutdown environment. As opposed to 'neutron hammer', which does break up molecules to their constituent parts, but is irrelevant since it's in balance with gamma flux which serves to rebind those molecules.

The reason for hydrogen generation in the quantities required for an explosion that was witnessed at Fukushima was local thermal hot spots, most probably caused by decay heat generation. Neutron flux would not generate the amount of gas needed to produce an explosion of the size seen, and at the time it's not clear that recriticality had even occurred. Let alone in the amount needed to generate enough hydrogen gas to produce the seen explosion.

If I had access to the same data that the TEPCO workers had, I'd be able to better comment on the possibility of a failure in primary containment, or other things. While localized minor criticality events are possible, with the addition of significant amounts of borated water, it's unlikely that there is a serious sustained critical pile. Furthermore preloaded core poisons would also still exist depending on core life, and would be equally distributed inside the resulting slag pile, combined with portions of the control rods. Furthermore due to control rod location in a BWR style reactor, any core melt would be drawn by gravity towards the CRDM's, thus any failure would likely also pull the control rods, and all the negative reactivity contained therein along with it.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #25
50. Wrong
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 07:46 PM by Confusious
rods use a zirconium clading. When zirconium gets to a certain temperature, it causes the hydrogen to be stripped. If the core has melted, there is no zirconium left.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #50
71. Umm, no
It is the radiation from the core that causes water to split into hydrogen and oxygen.

It helps to have worked in the nuclear industry for a number of years, you get to know all the basics:eyes:
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. Really
google zirconium, rods, nuclear, and you'll learn the basics.

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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
19. K&R
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
24. K&R!
PB
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Whisp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
31. thanks for bringing news here. we sure don't get it from the fuckers at CNN
and the rest
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JackRiddler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
32. How is it possible that TEPCO is still in charge of anything? Mind-boggling...
or it would be, if we had not seen the example of BP being left in charge of its own crime scene / extinction zone / eco-holocaust.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:16 PM
Response to Original message
33. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, stockholmer.
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Cowpunk Donating Member (572 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:52 PM
Response to Original message
34. About those two plants in Nebraska
Edited on Mon Jun-20-11 04:20 PM by Cowpunk
Having been built on a flood plain, the plants obviously have multiple layers of anti-flood protection that go far above and beyond the local levees. The Fort Calhoun plant sits right on the river bank and is already surrounded by water. It has been shut down since April, but still requires power to keep the spent fuel rods cool.

I would think the destruction of local levees would actually lower the river level, putting these plants in less danger of flooding.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
35. Thank you for your updates stockholmer
Appreciate your work is continuing to do this.
K&R
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barbtries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. thank you so much for doing this.
it's all bad news and clearly the PTB are covering it up as well as they possibly can - to what end? oh, never mind. money trumps people. this fucked up world.

i'm in shock about youtube. why, who? i don't get that, that is just wrong. and amazing. if he gets them back online through a different video site i will save them from here on out.
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Pooka Fey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
40. Thanks for putting this together. KnR
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
42. k + r nt
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democrank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
49. K & R
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 07:49 PM
Response to Original message
52. Nuclear Radiologist: Don’t be fooled by paid industry “consultants” - including here!
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
56. +1
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eowyn_of_rohan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
53. No surprise at all - probably has been burning through the ground for weeks =nt
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ergot Donating Member (253 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Well, for sure I'm avoiding the area 900 miles ESE of Uruguay for the next 580 years.
:scared:
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Generic Other Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
55. FREE the French guy's videos
Nothing he said was so damaging that it should be banned. I am shocked.
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bottom line Donating Member (22 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
58. unfortuate reality
I just joined DU, this is my 2nd post: If I could offer some insight & some recommendations on this nuclear DISASTER. I'm 60, I was born & raised in Las Vegas, Nev. until 1976.
3 or 4 years prior, to 1951, (60 years old) they used to take buses of tourists out to the desert, to watch the mushroom clouds, which downwinded to Moapa Valley, the farming area, next to the Colorado River (then on to Ca. via water supply).
Vegas was a town of about 20,000 to 25,000 people then.
In the mid 90s, the Clinton years, because news had been so warped by the Reagones nightmare, there were a lot of little, relevant articles, in the back of the newspapers. One was Las Vegas has the highest cancer rate... It's grown since then.
A secret gov. report, we'll never, like area 51, see, but just from experience of how many family members, friends, of that 20,000 died of cancer or adversely effected, probably 20%.
I'm Buddhist. My heart & soul goes out to the Japanese at this time. Period. But this is another nightmare of the skulls & bones that is running, ruining this world. 20% eh, that's acceptable to those of murder. Yes, this is way bad. But there is a god & prayers & meditations are in order.
Which is why when I meet a conservative, I know where their soul permanently resides. There are no checks & balances in their unreality. It is just the unfortunate acceptance of being born in this, a bunch are headed to the hells, world.
There is nothing to cause a panic about, because there is nothing that can be done about the worldwide radiation that we are now part & parcel experiencing. We can have hope the plants will be encased. That nuclear power WILL BE eliminated.
My simple recommendation, eat healthy. You have to give it to them, mutated e coli, & don't eat a salad. I.e. it's those liberals fault.
The other recommendation, because I've had more than my share of exposure, my own experience is when I have an x-ray, I find myself inexplicitally, in a weird furious anger. That is caused by the radiation. Realize that & stay cool.
Truthfully, the much much bigger danger, is the skulls & bones are busy having their mad scientists perfect human cloning. I.e. Dolly the sheep, hoof & mouth disease, not seen since 90 years prior. Which is why the current wars & REcession were started. To divert attention away from cloning. Which is why they are pulling such absurd THEFT. The reality is "they are melting, they are melting". Eat healthy, meditate, pray, we may survive, if not, god is just.
If you don't think that the bulls they have cloned, offspring, is not now in the food supply, you are way too trusting. Human sheep.
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snagglepuss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #58
77. "There are no checks & balances in their unreality. " Bang on.
Interesting post. Welcome to DU. :hi:
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
59. I remember when
I was ridiculed for my anti nuke stance.

The whole world has been poisoned and will be for 125,000 years.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
60. Where are our world scientists who should be following this? Where are governments?
This effects the entire planet --

How asleep are we -- have we hypnotized ourselves by watching TV into

kind of coma?

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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
63. K&R
-
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
64. Thanks for all your work pulling those links together. They are a Must Read!
:kick:
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-20-11 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
65. I know this is happening in real time. I always feared it was as bad as this.
Knowing that it's this bad makes me feel very, very helpless about our planet.

Hope the Japanese with all of their vaunted ingenuity can find a way to save our planet.

A shaken K&R.
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lbrtbell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 03:12 AM
Response to Original message
70. Screw nuclear energy
And screw YouTube for removing Alex's videos! YouTube has sucked ever since Google bought it.
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nc4bo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 06:27 AM
Response to Original message
73. K&R! nt
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MrMickeysMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
74. Thank-you, stockholmer...
As one reporter says who can't help but write about this subject, it's more important than the price of TEPCO's stock right now.

Thanks for the links.
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Esse Quam Videri Donating Member (256 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 07:13 AM
Response to Original message
76. Stockholmer much thanks for putting this together.
There is another website that does this on a continuing basis:

www.enenews.com

I find myself checking this site 4 or 5 times a day for the latest stories on this disaster.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-21-11 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
78. They buried Iraq and Afghanistan in a news blackout. BP was let off the hook
by the M$M and the WH, expect Japan to be ignored until the problem is knocking on our frontdoor...and even then expect a huge wait time.
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