DU Has NOT Changed - Americans Have.

Seriously, people - get a grip.

For the last couple of weeks, I've seen more GBCW posts and more hand-wringing over the "tone" and "devisivness" and "anger" plaguing our beloved DU.

There is so much angst flowing around here its more like reading a compilation of depressed teenage diaries than a political message board authored by some pretty smart adults.

And no actionable solutions are offered - only draconian ideas whose intent is little more than to strangle the expression of anything disagreeable to the person complaining.

Come on - we're supposed to be progressive thinkers around here.

DU has not changed. Skinner did not issue new guidelines for posting, did not change the subject, did not slowly encourage impatience, did not delete sympathy and empathy and pity from the menu.

What we are experiencing here at DU is simply one manifestation of the growing rift within our culture as our social contracts break down and are replaced with greed-driven domination by the powerful and elite.

We are ALL victims of this new paradigm, you know.

Consequently, our need to be understood, our growing lack of patience for those who do not understand, is the new normal for pretty much everything that is America right now.

And DU is simply reflecting this new reality.

So instead of leaving the site, instead of bitching and moaning and crying and pining away for the "good old days," I recommend trying something else.

Practice patience.

Give to each other.

Remember the person who will be affected by your comments or posts, may or may not be in the same place you are, and could be in a much worse place than you.

Work as individuals to cultivate an atmosphere that reflects our progressive values, rather than one which battles with them.

STOP being so damned judgmental.

We. Are. A. Community.

So act like it. Because if we fail to be kind, and giving, and thoughtful, and patient, with each other, this island of hope and positive reflection, which IS our community, will break down completely, and then what will we have?

Certainly not each other.

And for many DUers, we're all we've really got left, right now.

So fucking remember that, next time you feel that stab of impatience, that need for textual vengence, that desire to make SOMEONE pay for your own sense of displacement.

You do NOT know the harm you may be causing another; you don't know the price someone else will ultimately pay for your 30-second ego boost at getting that textual knife in for a good stab in some offending person's heart.

And you DO know what small acts of kindness and patience and giving can mean to another; you can make a difference - big and small - for everyone you interact with...which is a much healthier ego boost than getting your keyboard bloody...

I have stayed out of the DU has changed threads because they're basically BS.

by hitting the correct button. :)

:hi:

But we're fast approaching a Presidential election. But maybe the fact it's the other side who will be drowning out all else will unite us again. But the bets are off in the election after that.

I have been attacked several times over the past few weeks by people who were actually agreeing with me. Took them a minute to realize it.

There is a reason Robert Reich drew two people snarling at each other in his latest little cartoon about the economy. The oligarchs are playing a little distraction game of "Why don't you and him fight?!"

And I do agree with you. America has changed. For the worse. And as someone else suggested, it's just like what Reich talked about - the propagandists for the super-rich are masters at turning us normal people against each other, to compete for the scraps.

The other factor I'm seeing is this - When DU began, the Bush Family Evil Empire had just stolen the presidency from us. And then 9/11. And then Iraq. And then Katrina. And then...

It was easier to be a bit more unified when we had a common enemy. Now that "our guy" is in office, and is not performing up to many people's expectations (including mine!) it is easy to snipe at each other.

And, of course, the culture is coarser, shallower, greedier, and more vapid than it was 10 years ago.

is what creates the confusion here at DU --

PLUS the fact that DU rules do not really permit open discussions of

what to do about all of this --

Many FEARS here -- lots of fear-based posting -- because many Dems here are

very frightened that liberal Dems will stop voting for the "lesser evil."

That they may stop voting as happened in 2010 --

And that they may stop $$ financially supporting the Dem Party and or DU !!


Meanwhile, we know that the Koch Bros. funded the DLC -- and that they infiltrated

and influenced the party over a 20 year period. In '08 DU members gave $280,000

to the Democratic Party via THIS WEBSITE -- !!


Think about that -- that was a one time fund-raising --

and that happened while the Koch Bros were influencing the Democratic Party and its

candidates -- and its agenda. Is that really what Democrats or DU members should

have been supporting?

Was Bill Clinton our first Koch Bros/DLC candidate?

Would Gore have been our second?


The complaints by those here who want to shut down criticism of Obama and Dems are

really about not wanting to see liberals move to the next step -- that's the FEAR.

Think about it --

When most of us join here, we are so jazzed up over finding a leftwing site, we happily get into conversations with people and easily ignore or tolerate those who don't agree 100%.

Over time, many DU'ers become used to DU and focus solely on those posters who agree with their views 100% and begin to resent the "static" of those who don't. We come here for a self-referential affirmation.

Best solution to this problem is actually stepping away from DU for a month or two.

That would be possible save that most of the 'DU has changed' people are people that complain when people that post here are complaining about Democrats giving into the conservatives or (in the case of Bluedogs) simply being conservative.

During the Bush years there was still considerable agitation and apology over our congress not attempting to impeach Bush, and this was back in 2006 and on.

DU has changed. I've been around off and on since 2004 and it seems to me like it's pretty much the same as it's ever been. Discounting the infighting during the primaries. Some days it's diamonds, some days it's coal. :shrug:

Right on(or should that be left on?) what we aught be about is building, proposing and giving voice to a future with vision. It may feel good to wring our hands cuss like hell and spit but what good does that do us? If there is junk we don't like going on then pointing it out is not bad if we have solutions. Its the old saying "put up or shut up". Lets all start "putting up" so we are not all shut up. Be a political mentor to your brothers and sisters out here we need to lift each other up a bit instead of tearing each other down in factions.

Because it's so true. While we all may disagree on certain issues our #1 issue should be one that is UNITED against the continual barrage of RW fascism in America.

:toast:

DU is made up of mostly "Americans." So if Americans have changed, doesn't it follow that the whole tone of DU would have changed with them?

FWIW, the animosity and vitriol exhibited during the 2008 Primaries, especially by the PUMA crowd, has lingered and is often thinly disguised as "supportive criticism."

the PUMA crowd was very angry, but the Obama supporters (and I was a strong supporter at that point) did very little to mend those fences.

Add that underlying animosity to the fact that this country is being destroyed by capitalism (something that is harder to tackle than simply picking on your average DLCer or Republican) and we've got a lot of anger and no place for it to go.

Soon, hopefully, it will be out on the streets. And, yes, there we will need to hang together strong.

K&R for the OP.

too often opinions that someone doesn't share is met with ad hominem attacks and insults rather than respectful, rational debate.. we need more of that here.. if there is a change of tone to come in this country it starts HERE, not with our politicians or the media.. with US...

what has changed is the emergence of pro-Obama and anti-Obama factions. It's our own little war.

but the FEAR here is that liberal Demcorats will stop voting for

the "lesser evil" --

and/or stop contributing to the party -- and to DU --

$280,000 at least went from this website to Obama --

and/or stop voting --

We have a sick Democratic Party sickened by Koch Bros. funding the DLC --

infiltrating the party, influencing the party over 20 years -- harbored within

the Democratic Party for 20 years --

You don't think there's a need to do something about those things?

I have to give you credit for bringing the Koch Industries/DLC connection into so many of your posts.

I'm part of the New Deal crowd that you cite and, while I still contribute to DU, I have put my financial and shoe leather support of the Democratic Party on hold. I also plan to vote for a New Deal guy in the primary and I have no plan to vote for a DLC guy in the election.

We share a sense of urgency. Like-minded people need to find a way to all pull together.

that DU'ers have to begin to understand --

and we all need to be working on waking them up!

As unpleasant as that calling may be -- I certainly didn't want the job!



:hi:

I'm sorry the rethugs have ****ed things over so profoundly and have us so angry and perplexed that we attack each other, sometimes ferociously. Let's all make an effort to be kind to our fellow dems progs socs. Don't make the fascists any happier than they already are. We're all in this together, folks.

Pax

I always think of these sentences both cliche and Ironic, since you are technically judging others.

Carry on.

I really am aware of the ironic slathering which accompanies any such OP; as such I try to keep it in mind as I write...and, just to be fair, I am also judging myself - just a few hours before I wrote this I was struggling not to jump all over someone for something relatively minor - I'm as guilty as anyone I "judge" with this OP.

you will see more of this -- it is a debating board --

There are a few possibilities -- either DU will change and open up the board to more

truthfulness about the current political situation --

and loosen the restrictions on discussions of what to do about all of this --

and/or more and more liberals will continue to leave for other websites --

In Skinner's own estimation, that would be at least 50% of the current posters --



Trust no one is really being unkind -- but if you do understand what is going on politically

and with the planet -- Global Warming -- then you understand we do not have a lot of time --

certainly not decades.


What we are experiencing here at DU is simply one manifestation of the growing rift within our culture as our social contracts break down and are replaced with greed-driven domination by the powerful and elite.

We are ALL victims of this new paradigm, you know.

Consequently, our need to be understood, our growing lack of patience for those who do not understand, is the new normal for pretty much everything that is America right now.

And DU is simply reflecting this new reality.

So instead of leaving the site, instead of bitching and moaning and crying and pining away for the "good old days," I recommend trying something else.


This is a liberal nation -- we have a huge liberal voting bloc -- sadly much of it having

stayed at home now for decades because of this takeover of the party by the right --

and as we saw in 2010 that kind of falling away has increased among liberals.


The Obama administration and Democrats are completely out of accord with the wishes of the

public --

How many more years of war are you willing to sit "patiently" watching?

How many more oil drilling spills -- ?

How many more nuclear reactor accidents -- ?

How much more unemployment which is 15% -- ?

How many more new trade agreements selling off our nation -- ?

And how long are you willing to watch Americans without health care suffer -- ?

When was the last time you even heard Obama mention the homeless among us -- ?


THAT is how I judge DU -- and its members -- what they are fighting for --

NOT WHAT THEY FEAR -- that Democrats will stop voting for the "lesser of evils" -- !!


"Patience" in these times would be immoral imo --



:(

Without exercising patience with each other, we will fail to build the type of consensus we will need to stand together in any organized way. Strategy plays an important part in all of this, and good communications unmarred by unneccesarily hurt feelings is actually good strategy.

And patience for our fellows, along with open and honest communication, are moral and righteous.

IMO.

and that is what has long been creating the discontent of those on

the right side of the party here -- Koch Bros/DLC Dems --


NOT something personal vs Obama as is repeatedly suggested here --

Though you have not even acknowledged even one of the issues listed --

as I especially asked you how long you would show "impatience" on those issues --

:eyes:


Evidently you've never heard this quote or given too much thought to

it re other posters here --

"You can't wake up a man pretending to be asleep" --



Defense of the Koch Bros/DLC Democratic Party and its rightward agenda can no

longer be tolerated by Democrats --

Which is the main thrust of my OP - WE have all changed, or have been changed, by the current American circumstance. I simply suggest keeping this mitigating factor in mind when our patience wih each other run short, or we prepare to nail someone for some infraction against our sensibilities. We simply must snap out of the trap we're all in, of taking such great offense to things relatively minor.

Also, one more side benefit to re-establishing our true community (and our true selves) -- what chance do TROLLS have of making any sort of impact here, if we are once again civil and kind and compassionate and caring, even when we're irritated and impatient? TROLLS will stick out like sore thumbs, they will, as their ability to be sincere - here - must be severely limited, given their intent.

and with the issues --

You began saying DU hadn't changed --

Now you want to say that those who stand against Obama's corporate agenda are guilty

of "vitriol"?

I think that is clearly showing your one-sided bias --


The "trap" we are all in is corporate/fascism and sadly a Democratic Party which is

colluding in pushing it -- while some here wish to ignore that reality.


Liberals need to discuss concrete ways to fight this fascism --

it should be happening here at DU --




vitriol - Wiktionary
sulphuric acid and various metal sulphates · (by extension) bitterly abusive language; invective or vituperation · to subject someone to bitter verbal abuse
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vitriol - Cached

This is worth repeating:

"There is a reason Robert Reich drew two people snarling at each other in his latest little cartoon about the economy. The oligarchs are playing a little distraction game of "Why don't you and him fight?!"

DU has changed (since I joined in the summer of 2002) and so has America.

My OP is truly not an "either, or" argument - it is intended to be a "root, branches" argument. And, I must point out...it appears you may have committed this fallacy...yourself...ummm...just now...!

:pals:

Those of us who were here at the very beginning-- or almost-- remember how it felt to be united against the (illegitimately) powerful, solidly in support of the powerless.

Now, a relentless, vocal minority regularly insults and abuses the powerless on behalf of the powerful. And the powerless don't feel the same kind of solidarity here we used to. Yes, America has gotten to be a much uglier meaner place in the intervening years-- but so has DU.

:eyes:

it reads like a PR press release or commercial.

Respect for this inevitability translates into respect for others and their own perspectives. Loss of this basic respect, more than anything else, is the first thing to be lost, in a culture turning bitter, and desperate.

We must, IMO, find a way back to tolerance, to acceptance of differences, to thicker skin, to the practical and mature expression of our values.

Right now, America lacks, more than anything else, moral leadership. In the Army, I learned first hand leadership is "top down." The attitudes and actions of, say, the battallion commander, were reflected in the mores and attitudes of everyone in the battallion - right down to the lowliest private.

Without strong leaderhip, we are culturally rudderless; and so we drift...and end up feeling out of control, the biggest things in our lives subject to whim and fate. We continuously suffer from a looming prospect of disaster, just waiting around the next corner, ready to weaken us, to belittle us, to make a mockery of our accomplishments, our honor, our very lives...

Consequently, I am unable to see further division as an effective way out.

And in truth, to go just a bit deeper, I do not see a real way out - nor do I honestly believe we should seek one.

No, we don't need a way out.

Together, all of us; we must find a way through...

:kick:

contained no ad hominem attacks, ever -- not only not against other Dems, but even against Repubs.

I don't need someone to tell me which individuals are good or bad; I just want to know what they're saying and doing, and arguments I can use to try to counter it if I don't like it.

I love having this place to get info and help think things through; but I would like to be treated with courtesy and respect, and I believe everyone else deserves the same.

Kudos...

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:applause: :applause:

n/t

You know what? We deserve the government we get - we made this shit sandwich, we deserve to eat it.

There is a very well defined war going on against America from within. Most of America are just spectators: unable to even begin to think of where to start or how to stand against it. Others are just apparently slavish to power and will do nothing.

I would be that if somebody cut the power to the 24/7 bullshit American Idol Good Morning America pablum that America would wake up. Perhaps if the juice was cut we would wake up ans start asking questions...demanding answers.

It's easy to want to flush it out when we watch 24 hr news and only have the TV to yell at. I think it's possible to express anger without judgement or attack. But, as much as some of our people feel under attack it can be difficult. That said, it's worth a try.

There, high on the watchtower
Keeping the peace
Whatever that means
Because you see the world through
Crosshairs and tv's don't you

Ten foot walls built around us
White picket death
So quiet, so safe
But if we fall there will be nothing and no one to catch
So sit back and watch as we

Spin out of control
Spin out of control
Try to recover, but collide with each other
We spin out of control

Something I cannot change
I was born in a place
That lives by the sword
And thus to it's blade we're condemned
Don't you understand why we scream no more?

My dreams are of children
Orphaned by blood
Spilled at these hands
Here on the graves of the innocent
We raise our flag

Spin out of control
Spin out of control
Try to recover, but collide with each other
We spin out of control
Somethings you don't forgive somethings you don't forget
Sometimes the fate you suffer is so much worse than death
We're way off course now and we're drifting out to sea
So cut the anchor on your heart to be set free

Spin out of control
Spin out of control
Try to recover, but collide with each other
We spin out of control

--Rise Against Kotov Syndrome

I was just wondering how much different this site would have been during the Clinton administration. I can't imagine a big difference.

KnR :kick:

"Seriously, people - get a grip."

"like reading a compilation of depressed teenage diaries"

"instead of bitching and moaning and crying and pining away"

"STOP being so damned judgmental."

"So fucking remember that, next time"



You're not going to change anyone's attitude by belittling their feelings and berating them.

You make a good point, but I didn't take it as belittling. I am notorious for moaning and whining...sometimes, an "aw...get over it", with good intentions behind it"...helps me keep perspective. And, I'm definitely judgemental...LOL.

So, the post worked for me. I understand, it may not have worked for everyone.