TSA: so...let me get this straight. They are wrong to do searches. But if they don't and a bomb gets

through they are wrong for not having done searches.

Terrorists are known to hide bombs now in their underwear. If a TSA agent touches someone where there underwear is they are in the wrong. But if a bomb gets through because they didn't touch someone where there underwear covers they are wrong.

I honestly don't understand all the commotion. People are hiding bombs on their person so we either check for them or we can't complain about security when a bomb gets on a plane. TSA agents are now facing a no-win situation.



So, how do we keep the air safe without searches?

A few women I know were molested as children and have severe aversion to being touched. Even the idea of being touched by strangers induces severe anxiety. I suspect that is what caused the Japanese American woman to lash out at a TSA agent who had begun a patdown.

http://www.myfoxny.com/dpps/news/woman-arrested-for-groping-tsa-agent-07152011_14151365

There are better ways to keep the skies relatively safe. Other countries don't do the security theatre.

that isn't connected with or can't deteriorate into racial, religious or other forms of biased profiling. Israel is a prime example of countries that use "behavioral" profiling. We complain here about pat downs. When they're suspicious of someone after their interrogation, the next step is a strip search.

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/06/19/row-after-israeli-airport-staff-strip-search-barcelona-gay-rights-leaders-boyfriend/

Two of the leading members of Barcelona’s LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans) community have claimed that they were subjected to humiliating security checks while trying to fly home to Spain from Israel’s Ben Gurion Airport. Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has criticised the actions by airport security staff.

David Marti, Barcelona Pride’s general manager and his partner had been taking part in Tel Aviv’s gay pride parade as guests of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Mr Marti claims that airport security staff had stripped his boyfriend and asked a series of personal questions which he claims exceeded reasonable limits.

SNIP


The spokesperson described Mr Marti and his boyfriend as “guests of the state” and that their details were passed to security officials in advance of arriving at the airport. The spokesperson added that: “the security inspector severely harmed Israel’s image. The last thing that we do to them is abuse them and they say that they don’t want to come back again.”

In a statement the Israeli Airport Authority said: “Security personnel at Ben Gurion International Airport work day and night for the security of the passengers. Security personnel treat all passengers the same, regardless of their sexual orientation or beliefs.”

People should not be routinely groped. That is all.

It isn't for Palestinian Isrealis or people of other "suspicious" backgrounds.

And a strip-search there isn't considered an abuse of the system -- just another step in the process for people who come under suspicion.

http://www.forward.com/articles/122781/

But according to an Israeli involved in the security sector, most Israeli-run security consulting companies have since downsized or left the field of airport security due to the difficulty in overcoming cultural gaps that prevented implementing Israeli methods in American airports. “People simply won’t agree to spend all that time and money,” he said. “You can’t change the way people think.” Bezherano added another factor: “Americans find it hard to swallow a security policy that employs different standards to different groups.”

While for most Jewish Israelis the policy of profiling in airport security is viewed as acceptable, Arab citizens of the country see it as outright discrimination.

“This is the most offensive and humiliating experience I have ever had. I was immediately suspect because I am Arab,” said Saleh Yaaqubi, an Arab-Israeli student chosen to represent Tel Aviv University in an international conference alongside several other students. Yaaqubi’s story was told in a 2006 report prepared by the Arab Association for Human Rights. He said that while all Jewish members of his group passed the security checkpoints quickly, he was taken for further questioning time and again, both when leaving Israel and upon his return.

Non-Jewish tourists and academics visiting Israel also spoke of being singled out from the crowd and asked intrusive questions about their personal lives.


Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/122781/#ixzz1SJEkNbA0

Who are actually Arab.

And maybe your Arab friends would agree, if you actually asked them.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/high-court-explain-why-israeli-arabs-discriminated-against-by-airport-security-1.347717

The High Court of Justice on Monday ordered the Airports Authority and the Shin Bet security services to explain why security checks at Israel's airports were being conducted in a discriminatory fashion.

The court was responding to a petition filed by a human rights group in 2007 that claimed Israeli Arab citizens were being subjected to racial profiling at Israel's airports, tagged in a generalized way a "security risk".

According to the petition, Israeli Arab passengers – even those who did not exhibit any suspicious behavior - are forced to undergo unusually thorough security checks.

In its third debate on the matter last week, the High Court lashed out at the generalized tagging. On Monday, the justices issued an injunction forcing the state to explain why the security procedures were being carried out with unequal considerations.

Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch said there was no doubt that the humiliation experienced by Israeli Arab citizens during airport security checks was unacceptable.

SNIP

When was their last plane hijack or bombing??

And they don't grope grannies and 6 year olds.

PH

and their own High Court recently condemned.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/high-court-explain...

The High Court of Justice on Monday ordered the Airports Authority and the Shin Bet security services to explain why security checks at Israel's airports were being conducted in a discriminatory fashion.

The court was responding to a petition filed by a human rights group in 2007 that claimed Israeli Arab citizens were being subjected to racial profiling at Israel's airports, tagged in a generalized way a "security risk".

SNIP

In its third debate on the matter last week, the High Court lashed out at the generalized tagging. On Monday, the justices issued an injunction forcing the state to explain why the security procedures were being carried out with unequal considerations.

Supreme Court President Dorit Beinisch said there was no doubt that the humiliation experienced by Israeli Arab citizens during airport security checks was unacceptable.

______________________________

And Arabs aren't the only group who have been unfairly targeted:

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2011/06/19/row-after-israeli -... /

Two of the leading members of Barcelona’s LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual and trans) community have claimed that they were subjected to humiliating security checks while trying to fly home to Spain from Israel’s Ben Gurion Airport. Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs has criticised the actions by airport security staff.

David Marti, Barcelona Pride’s general manager and his partner had been taking part in Tel Aviv’s gay pride parade as guests of Israel’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs. Mr Marti claims that airport security staff had stripped his boyfriend and asked a series of personal questions which he claims exceeded reasonable limits.

SNIP


The spokesperson described Mr Marti and his boyfriend as “guests of the state” and that their details were passed to security officials in advance of arriving at the airport. The spokesperson added that: “the security inspector severely harmed Israel’s image. The last thing that we do to them is abuse them and they say that they don’t want to come back again.”

In a statement the Israeli Airport Authority said: “Security personnel at Ben Gurion International Airport work day and night for the security of the passengers. Security personnel treat all passengers the same, regardless of their sexual orientation or beliefs.”

that the vast majority of their sworn enemies are from a very small range of ethno-religious demographics.

But yeah, they shouldn't profile.... sheesh.

Twenty percent of their population is Arab, and they don't all deserve to be profiled.

Should we profile white people here because of Timothy McVeigh and other white terrorists?

Specifically not targeting a trend is just as bad as targeting only that trend.

It amazes me that people can't see this...

The United States has hundreds. The fact that they've had zero and we've had one to three (depending if you count the underwear bomber and the shoe bomber getting past security) isn't statistically significant proof that their security is better than ours.

I take it you don't have an Arabic name, or live in Israel.

Go see a checkpoint.

know the status, but I doubt that could be possible.

:popcorn:


OK

Extra points for first person to use the term "Kabuki theater".

Uh, really can't argue a point without knowing what you MEAN by this?

Where are you getting the 'they are wrong to do searches' idea?

perhaps the Constitution has given some of these naysayers some bright ideas. Presumption of innocence? Yes, yes, that was all well and good in its time, but we're a nation on the move. We're in a different era now. Such mewly sentiments only help to destroy America from within.

(I really hate to do this, but I probably should...) :sarcasm:

cheaper and quite effective...



Just kidding...sort of...

Will you be willing to bend over and "assume the position" at the airport? :wtf:

I'm assuming you mean by your statement it will be orchestrated by this government?

We aren't talking suicide vests. We are talking really amateur crap designed not to blow up planes but to spread panic and economic disruption. HUGE amounts are being diverted to this nonsense which are desperately needed elsewhere.

If al qaeda had the vast spy cells and networks they are trying to sell us, we'd have car bombs going off everywhere. Has anything blown up that wasn't on TV or a spouse killing a spouse?

NO ONE has blown up anything by carrying liquids onto a plane.

NO ONE has blown up anything with his shoes.

The first time they tried to do the WTC they got 6 people and messed up a garage. We do more in a bus accident coming from a casino. But we can barely be bothered to stiffen the bus regulations.

You are succumbing to carefully orchestrated panic.

Deal with the real. There's a hurricane coming. It will destroy a lot more than a shoe bomber.

Since it is ok to do anything to keep people safe on the planes, now that terrorists are considering bomb implants (http://www.leadertelegram.com/news/daily_updates/article_16925422-60fd-5fb5-b0c7-abbb695dfb66.html), we should allow the TSA agents to start performing surgery on every traveler.


The response of the TSA doesn't truly make travelers any safer, they only force terrorists to become more ingenious/devious to avoid detection while punishing the vast majority of travelers who do not intend harm. In fact the case could be made that their policies have made felons out of otherwise law abiding citizens due to the citizens response to the invasion of their rights and privacy.

...as an alternative we could consider stop doing the shit that makes terrorists want to blow up our planes. You know, like um.... occupying their lands and starting wars there. And maybe we could reconsider using robot drone planes to kill innocent babies and their mothers. You know, instead of us always arguing with one another about the symptoms of a problem, maybe we should look into the causes. And that kind of shit.

- Just a whacky idea I know.......

Your idea just might work and then what? Peace? How do we handle something like that?

...or everybody else here is -- and we're the only sane ones left.

But then, as another poster said, how would we justify the mega-bazillion-dollar budget of the Department of War?

'security' going on, although he was on watch lists, and his own highly placed father warned American authorities of his son's intentions. Still, he was allowed to come here, and to board that plane.To pretend that guy 'just slipped by' is patently false. So, all that security in place, and still an known nutter on watch lists manages to get what I think is the only bomb known to have actually gotten on a plane in the States ever, TSA and all the rest of the headless chickens did not do the right thing when Barney Fife could have done so.

how far do we go? you dont see what the problem is someone feeling others crotch because someone put a bomb in underwear?

then not one should make it thru without crotch being rubbed, not a lite at on the side. because that bomb would nto be caught in the naked scanner.

airport after airport has failed when tested if stuff can get thru. what is the illusion that this makes us safe?

if someone gets thru, then it is a horror. a bitch. a shit happens. can only do the best we can do, within reason.

what happens if they do all this and a bomb gets thru?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

evisceration of the social safety net, malnutrition, hunger, inadequate safeguards for our food supplies, burgeoning homelessness, rotting infrastructure, lack of access to medical care, destruction of education through the wholly corrupt NCLB, burgeoning income equality, deterioration in almost all quality-of-life factors, lack of adequate sick leave and vacation, all the while our national security state grows in leaps and bounds and constitutional freedoms are being trampled one by one? :shrug: :patriot:

on a round-trip ticket, bought several months earlier, does *not* have a bomb in his underwear.

You know it, I know it, the security professionals at Tel Aviv airport (the safest in the world) would know it. The only people who are stupid enough *not* to know this are the TSA.

Preferred shipper program...then come back to me

Real security is the stuff you don't see - counter-intelligence, detective work, finding and tracking terrorist groups and catching them long before they make it to the airport. That's what really catches the bad guys.

Know how many terrorists were actually caught at the security checkpoints with all the TSA's intrusive measures? Zero. They don't get caught there.

To tell the truth, the porno-scanners and grope-downs aren't to catch terrorists, but to catch people with weed, and send a message to the proles that the feds can fuck with anyone they want any time they want, and ruin lives on a whim.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I think 99% of TSA agents do a good job under lousy conditions. Flying is increasingly expensive, uncomfortable and irritating, with overbooked planes, screaming babies, and cramped seats. The TSA's searches are invasive but I've had more intimate contact standing on a packed bus and survived without complaint. The TSA is just an easy target. Fools like the agent who made the 95 year old granny remove her "depends" give all agents a bad name.

I'll admit, I'm not particularly modest-and after recent surgery I have no problem being poked or prodded or felt up in "private" areas. Once you've had an ultrasound on your balls nothing else comes close.

Yes its an irritation and yes it can be invasive but its a reality and until that changes people who object have little choice-either put up with it or find alternate transportation. If a TSA search is the worst problem you face all day, you've had a good day.

As I've said before some of us have been molested. Touching by strangers terrifies us!

the invasion of privacy or skip flying. I never meant to imply that I feel its a good process, or in any way fair, only that, realistically its what we're faced with. Knowing that up front, if I were in your position, I would certainly refuse to fly, however limiting that might be.

I don't see any alternative. until security is loosened which, right now, doesn't look very likely.

to coerce people into submitting to the body scan.

your opinion.

I have no sense of modesty at all.

You shouldn't have to go through something like that without a medical benefit. Maybe they should replace the TSA officers with doctors and have them check for polyps while they're in there.

(As snarky as that sounds, it would improve access to health care and cancer screening. Maybe it's not such a bad idea after all.)

What's currently infuriating the Islamist radicals are the US military and contractor interventions and air attacks.

European, Asian and South American airport security personnel don't generally do the invasive patdowns. I keep seeing the USA policymakers making our country hated. But still it's more dangerous to drive than to fly. I am deeply suspicious about what TSA is all about. I believe it's secondary purpose was to employ lowskilled people.

find the pat-downs particularly intrusive or threatening-nothing more.

I can take a patdown, whatever. But what about those people who do find it traumatic? They should be able to fly, I think.

I'm pretty sure that it's having been the victim of molestation. However there's no way to look at somebody and say for certain if they've been molested.

Not just abuse survivors.

Not just the elderly.

Not just kids.

They are a fundamental violation of our privacy, dignity, and liberty.

They are a violation of our Fourth Amendment rights.

They are wrong for EVERYONE.

Why this is even being remotely defended on this site buggers the imagination! Why isn't every member of this board standing up to defend our Constitution?? Nothing has changed. And our "security" is not a jot better -- only broader and more invasive.

WTF?

Molestation is unsupportable, regardless of gender of molester OR molestee.

willingness to be inappropriately touched by strangers. Like children, and women who are frightened by strangers sexually molesting them.

Not to mention that none of these abuses are necessary nor are they effective.

They are for the sole purpose of helping Michael Chertoff's clients, Rapiscan, get rich using fear to sell them.

Fortunately there has been so much outrage over these abuses, not just of people's personal right to NOT be groped by strangers, but to the continuing destruction of Constitutional Rights and for no reason other than profit. 11 States are now preparing legislation to ban these ugly practices and there is a Bill before Congress to limit the TSA's power to implement such disgusting policies. Also, lawsuits are being filed by orgainizations and by individuals, one already won by a woman who was molested and traumatized and any woman seeing what happened to her would never dismiss the harm done by these policies to ordinary innocent people.

Most of all, they are, as was predicted, now attempting to move these monstrosities into Malls and other parts of the country.

Are you so frightened of what is a minimal threat compared to all the other threats facing people each day, like dying from lack of insurance, eg, that you would turn a blind eye to the growing police state put in place using 9/11 to do so?

The grandmother in the recent incident was by no means isolated. And parents are correct to demand that their children who they have taught about inappropriate touching, NOT be mauled by strangers at the airport.

Dogs can do the job of those machines, but dogs, as Rep. Chaffetz said in a recent Congressional hearing on the TSA's practices, don't have lobbyists.

touched, nor to have your children touched by security then stay off airplanes. There are multiple ways to travel-find an alternative means of transport or stay home. Or go and cause a scene during your pat-down then sue the government. You'll probably lose but you'll show your conviction.

I don't think TSA searches are needed for security, I don't think we need to take off our shoes, I don't think banning carry-on water bottles is necessary but all three are policy. If I want to get on a plane, I have to submit to all three. That's not opinion-its reality.

If I felt as strongly as you, I would certainly refuse to fly for any reason whatsoever.

My sil flew a few weeks ago to Boston, she was not aware of these machines or patdowns and was in shock when she learned she had to go through them or not fly, or maybe be arrested. She was horrified and felt completely violated and won't be flying either until our rights are restored. I should have warned her but didn't speak to her before she left.

The fact that more and more Americans like me, feel they cannot fly or risk being molested, is not just OUR problem, it is everyone's. I fight for causes that do not affect me directly, because they affect society as a whole.

My right to travel freely and unmolested by the US Govt has been taken away. I would not go into any place where I knew some stranger might start groping me and I see no difference just because these people are being paid and are wearing uniforms, In fact they scare me even more since they can throw me in jail if I ask them to stop. That is totally backwards. At least in RL if someone tries to touch me that way, I can call the police and THEY will get arrested. Now, Orwell was right, things have been turned upside down.

We have the right to fly, contrary to what rightwingers always say. It is a constitutional right and part of our laws. But now, many of us cannot exercise that right and that is wrong.

is obviously badly out of date...

And in many other constitutions around the world, the right to freely circulate is specifically spelled out. That includes equal access to any form of mass transportation, including airlines, which have been known to receive public funding (for example, the TSA).

in violation of FAA regulations.

and I'm sure you'll find it in your copy of the Constitution.

The fact that there were no automobiles or planes when the Constitution was written does not mean that our right to 'travel' is restricted to horses and covered wagons, btw. You have to read it in a broader sense than just the MEANS of travel.

Then there's this:

United States Code 40103: Title 49

Want to fly on somebody else's plane, well, they can make their own rules.

Private airlines are not "public right of transit".

If they airlines wanted to continue those rules for themselves, they'd be free to do so. And likely loose all business to those that didn't.

Go to a smaller airport, get on a private plane, and avoid all screening.

Ultimately there will be fewer blue shirt?

I'm going to look up Rep. Chaffetz.

in trying to stop these abuses. He said it last week in a Congressional hearing where they had experts talking about how the machines could easily be replaced by dogs.

It was funny, although he was actually serious :-)

Men, IMO, cannot grasp the offense to women. We women, e.g., don't urinate in front of each other, either.

in the locker room. You get used to it after awhile. I agree that men, myself particularly, have a hard time comprehending how women view things.

Again, I didn't mean to say that I agreed with the process, merely that it is reality and that I don't find it offensive personally.

This isn't the topic, Winkydink, but many feminists who observed changes from the 50s through the early 1980s have been disappointed that patriarchal authoritarian values seem to have triumphed in the US. It would take too long, too amny links, to back this up. But the predatory capitalism which crashed the economy, which values have triumphed, is patriarchal. Do women actually participate in Wall Street schemes?

Yes.

Wall Street is one of the places you can actually find women behaving every bit as badly as men.

Some men do, but it's clear from some of the responses here that many do not. I would have expected better from democrats. And then again, this all happened under a Dem. Admin which makes it even worse.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)

The TSA consists of under trained over zealous underpaid egomaniacs who do not protect the American people. When tested they fail miserably.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/2010/12/23/tsa_failure_rate_may_approach_70_247786.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsgQWdT4Btw

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=7848683

If you agree with the kind of invasive techniques use by this failed arm of government then the terrorists have truly won.

I'm quite sure our founders were well acquainted with the fact of mortal risk in life. While they believed government had a responsibility to provide for the common defense, they certainly had no expectation that the government could or even should be able to protect everyone from every terrorist or malcontent bent on doing harm. They recognized that living with a certain degree of risk was simply the price of living in a free society. Ben Franklin's famous comment, to wit, "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety," was never more applicable than it is to this particular debate. Unfortunately, though, the belief that government both can and should provide such absolute safety is pervasive among voters of both parties. It astounds me that, based on a handful of actual incidents (or even attempted incidents), a huge swath of the public is willing to tolerate being treated as criminal suspects and having their Fourth Amendment protection against unreasonable searches violated.

Airports are exploding nearly every day in America? An American can't go anywhere without bombs going off in the street, its just like Beruit, or maybe the Gaza strip here!! OMG! The terrorists are just everywhere! :sarcasm:


freaking nutz!

prevention.

It's like saying you wasted your money on a home security system because no one's tried to break in since you gotit.

Wait till they start picking off little old ladies and kids with a load in their pants. This crap never happened 20 years ago.. seemed no one was as worried. I wonder why that was? Never happened during the Vietnam war... we sure made some enemies then.

slippery slope arguments. Surely you understand why.

:hi:

How do we keep buses safe without searches? Trains? Subways? The mall at Christmas? Baseball games, concerts, Red Lobster on Mother's Day?

Look, the fact is that any place where people gather relatively close together is an ideal target for a terrorist. What we need to decide as a society is how far we are going to go in order to try to make such situations safer. The trade-off of course is that making such things safer means sacrificing some personal privacies to do so. It should be noted that there is no such thing as 100% safety in any of these situations. We can go for more, or less, but we can never achieve certainty.

So, back to airplanes and our efforts there. For me we are taking the wrong approach because our current ruleset sacrifices a LOT of personal freedom for very little return. The average ten year old, having been through an enhanced patdown just once, could tell you how to get something past it. We might catch the dumbest 20% of potential terrorists this way but we give up an awful lot to do so. It just isn't worth it.

I know the government can't keep me completely safe from terrorists, no matter what they do. I accept that. I further accept that allowing people to maintain most of the privacy we have become accustomed to enhances that risk somewhat. I am a-OK with that. I would much rather live in a society wherein I risk the random nutjob having it within his power to commit mayhem than a draconian society that peers into every private corner of my life and STILL accomplishes little except to breed smarter nutjobs.

if a bomb gets through it will be because the TSA was looking for iShit to pilfer and not contraband.

you have some sort of corroboration of your claim, right?

The reports by the Inspector General are classified but usually leaked, the reports by the GAO are not.

GAO investigators succeeded in passing through TSA security screening checkpoints undetected with components for several improvised explosive devices (IED) and an improvised incendiary device (IID) concealed in their carry-on luggage and on their persons. The components for these devices and the items used to conceal the components were commercially available. Specific details regarding the device components and the methods of concealment GAO used during its covert testing are classified by TSA; as such, they are not discussed in this testimony.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0848t.pdf

How about something recent? Or, did you use something from 2007 on purpose?

Last month, TSA Chief John Pistole told ABC News that the poor performance during undercover tests helped convince him that airport screening needed to get that much tougher -- and a desire to do better helped give rise to the controversial new regimen that includes enhanced pat-downs and back-scatter machines that can see beneath a traveler's clothing.

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/loaded-gun-slips-past-tsa-screeners/story?id=12412458

Nobody really disputes that the TSA screeners are incompetent. The TSA just believes that the best way to fix this is the same way most law enforcement issues are addressed in this ridiculous country: a theatrical display of force.

you have no proof for your claim.

I'm pretty comfortable with my statement. Dude...

however, you hardly speak for the rest of us.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

That guy should be fired. He lied about the policies regarding children last Fall also, and just a few weeks ago, Rep. Chaffetz when referring to yet another child abuse-by-TSA incident accused the TSA of violating its own rules regarding children.

Stupid as they are and in a game of what they thought was 'gotcha', they responded that they did not have such rules, so could not have violated them. Prompting Chaffetz to correctly point out that they better not lie to Congress again and get those rules in place.

Which is why, if you thought you were experiencing deja vu when the TSA recently announced it was 'modifying' its policies towards children, (cause they said that already back in the Fall), you weren't. They lied about it, got caught, and had to do it over again.

I really trust these people with my security! :eyes:

month's edition. Sorry, I don't have a link.

:puke:

yes.

Wrong.

Chechnya, black widows. They stuffed plastic explosive into their "underwire".

within minutes of each other

and every person on those plane, other than the widows themselves, was a real human being who wanted to live, even though to some minds "this never happened" since it didn't happen in the united states

I was coming back from Japan and had a package of miso (a bean paste).

I was stopped. They would not let me take it or eat it to prove it was safe.

So they thought it was a potential bomb, right? OK, but...

The head of the security there said I could go back and put it into my luggage.

HOW THE FUCK does THAT make sense?

If you can explain that to me, maybe you will win me over to your side.

All blocks of "paste", "plastic", "gel", etc. are suspicious, because when combined with other items in the cabin (a cell phone battery for an ignition device, an iPod for a timing device), they could be changed, in-flight, from "paste" to "part of a bomb".

It's the same reason as the liquids regulations... it's not that the "miso" itself is a bomb, but that the "miso" could be used to *create* a bomb, mid flight. If it's in checked baggage, you cannot *assemble* a bomb with it during flight.

When cell-phones, laptops, radios, etc are banned from flight, I'll take it seriously, until then, these are regulations to scare idiot terrorists, and warn idiot passengers not to become terrorists.

What happens then?

Probably more of a chance of a plane crash usually caused by 'pilot error' according to the NTSB, than being blown up by a terrorist.

And we get to play bingo with all the "Americans are such prudes, people grope each other all the time in Europe" posts.

Please tell me you're not serious...

Why shouldn't the Government randomly search your home and vehicle to keep you "safe"? Wasn't it Ben Franklin that said if you give up liberty for safety you get neither..

Israeli air security has dealt with this kind of problem for far longer and more efficiently than the US. Their system works. And, they don't do it by randomly searching grannies undergarments.

One of the more striking differences, imo, is that because Israeli security measures aren't randomly invasive, reactionary, silly, and utterly ineffectual, the passengers generally don't resent it and view security agents as people they're working together with to insure safety. Contrast with TSA where the stupid is out in full force. Passengers routinely try to slip through >3 ounce bottles of liquid, spare lighters, grooming products, and generally view security agents as the "enemy," not someone to be worked with, but rather to be studiously avoided.

Now, you can debate the relative merits of these security systems til the cows come home, but, at the end of the day, one is effective and the other is kinda craptacular.

these people are trying to do a thankless job, if they wanted to molest children, they'd be working in day care or something where they can be with a child alone

we need searches on commercial aviation, seems pretty simple to me

yes, i've had some TSA or other screeners who irritated me but FFS...they are trying to do a thankless job and a bunch of whackjobs and lawsuit hunters screaming "i've been molested" is counter-productive to everyone's safety

i get screened/patted down a lot because i frequently fly solo and i frequently visit destinations that might seem unusual, being patted down is nothing like being a victim of violent crime, i wish i lived such an isolated life that i could kid myself that it was even close...but i can't, these spoiled brats who are screaming "pervert" at TSA workers should have experienced a few real perverts, is what i can't help thinking

Quite a few comments and nary a rec...lol...I think it pissed off some people! But nothing mean aimed at me...just lots of conversation.

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Stop attacking America, you terrorist!

However, if they do continue the searches, and another catastrophic event occurs, what is the precise amount of confidence we should posses in those very same searches.

Or, "how do we keep the air safe with searches...?"

Sniffer dawgz.

Next . . . . ?

They are not "wrong to do searches".

They are wrong to do abusive, inappropriate, ineffective searches as theater while refusing to address real security issues. They are wrong to be involved with Chertoff's corruption, and buying from his company. They are wrong in taking the attitude that they are above the law, the Constitution, and common decency. They are wrong in forgetting that they are servants, and it is the passengers they are serving, not the airline management, or some right-wing think tank somewhere.

Currently TSA workers seem to be a higher-risk group than airline passengers. How does allowing TSA searches help THAT?

If you honestly don't understand the commotion at this point, there's no way to explain it to you. You can watch videos of kids getting molested, you can see perfectly clearly that it affects them the same way that other people molesting them affects them, and you don't understand why people object to it. Sorry, I've got no resources to offer for that one.

Sorry to burst any bubbles... but the TSA is designed to keep America in.. not keep terrorists out.

"keep America in"?

Spend more money on the EPA than on the TSA.

AIT scanners:

http://wired.com/threatlevel/2011/07/court-approves-body-scanners

FOR URINATING ... I was then singled out for extra screening ... URINATION now makes us suspect? ... The TSA OFFICER was a woman who stalked me into the bathroom waiting until I came out of the stall, then watched me wash my hands, stared at me while I dryed my hands with a paper-towel, removed my sunglasses, fished out my sun-glass case, put my sunglasses away, fished out my READING glasses from their case, located my ID and boarding pass, put my makeup bag back into my purse, and put my purse on my shoulder ... THESE WERE MY CRIMES??? ... I was the ONLY one singled out for extra screening in the ENTIRE line of people in my line at the screening area. This is a professional observer? I'm a 55 year old business woman who was traveling with her husband of THIRTY years.

Both committees have been indifferent to the arrogance and duplicity of Director Pistole in testimony, while he has lost all credibility with the public. He has proven incapable of managing this agency and should be replaced. In the same week he defended this agency for frisking a six year old girl in New Orleans, TSA were removing a diaper from a dying 95 year old woman in Florida and screeners in Houston and Los Angeles arrested for theft from passengers.Congress has permitted TSA to promote an agenda of passenger-focused paranoia without consideration for the realities of airline safety. Many experts have stated that there has been no increase in aircraft exposure since 2002 and that the current procedures and technology are no more than theater. In the past eight months, TSA has been plagued by reports of agent thefts, sex crimes, assaults, drug trafficking, security breaches, drug use and dereliction of duty. Over sixty screeners have been implicated in that brief time without one notable success to offset this abysmal record.http://www.travelundergrou​nd.org/index.php?pages%2Ff​isher-masterlist%2FTSA cites the 2009 “underwear bomber” as the basis for the need to implement the intrusive policies. However, ABC News reported that the terrorist's underwear contained 80 grams of the explosive PETN, which tests revealed could only make a small hole in the wall of an airplane and would not disable the aircraft or result in a crash.This ineffective focus on passengers has become both excessive and dangerous. Once cockpit doors were reinforced and pilots armed a terrorist could not gain control of a plane a repeat of 9/11 became impossible. A human is physically incapable of concealing enough explosive to bring down an airliner yet the focus of TSA remains on passengers while allowing 60% of cargo on airliners to go unscreened and remaining oblivious to threat of a ground based attack.