So can somebody explain to me: What does a win look like here?

What realistic outcome to the whole debt ceiling debate would people here really consider a win for Obama? For the American people? I'm hearing a lot about doom, but I'm not hearing exactly what path leads to a brighter future. What do you think?

closing the doors to immigration (and not prosecuting those in here already), leaving Medicare, Medicaid and SS alone except for making sure corruption is prosecuted.

How likely is that? I can hear everyone laughing their heads off.

in?

instead of the usual 10, 12, 20 pages. It fits because in my town, any job fair gets hundreds and hundreds standing in line praying and hoping for a chance at a job. It fits because the Midwest has no jobs and it's a wasteland. It fits because our unemployment has hit a high that is terrifying. It fits because we need to keep OUR JOBS for OUR PEOPLE. And isn't it time we did the right thing for ourselves?

I remember when I first heard that a mother on a plane should FIRST put the oxygen on herself before her child, or she would not be able to help her child because she would be without oxygen. Well, same applies here. We are sacrificing ourselves for others. Time to STOP a moment.

The one thing corporations WANT is for immigration to continue. It keeps wages low. It is like breaking unions.

Time to stop all immigration for a few years. Time to build unions. Time to increase tariffs to all products coming in from other countries. Time for corporations to bring jobs BACK HERE.

That's what I have against immigration and how it fits in with all this. We have to help ourselves first. Once we have helped ourselves, THEN we may help others from other countries.

We NEED our jobs right now. OUR jobs should be limited to be filled by Americans ONLY. We need to give ourselves oxygen right now. Once we are back on our feet, we can help others from other countries. NOT WHILE WE ARE IN AN EMERGENCY SITUATION, HOWEVER. We need to retain our few jobs for our own people right now.

I was looking at manufacturing for a project I have in mind the other night, and China is BRUTALLY competitive. Its one thing to bash the companies who outsource for choosing to do so, its another when its your money and they are offering what American companies are at 1/5 the price. If we can't find some way to level the playing field, we are in BIG trouble.

their products without them being charged tariffs.

Insult to injury.

don't believe wall street would let that happen. Don't think the dems need to "compromise" on anything at all.

I understand the other points here, they are looking for the revenue increase to close the endless debt loop. But how can you look at another Bush era debt ceiling increase with no way to pay for it as a win?

edit: maybe you were looking at the word "realistic" in my post when you said that, and maybe you're right for now. But what does a long term strategy look like?

The tax cuts were supposed to expire on their own last year. Obama fucked up that one last year. That was the time to take care of that. Easily.

The two are not related.
Let the Bush Tax Cuts expire,
THEN submit a clean bill to extend Unemployment benefits.

The Extension of Unemployment benefits was a crumb that temporarily helped a relative small group of people
in exchange for BILLIONS given to the already RICH that forced us into the current crisis.

you deal with unemployment separately. It should have been done while there was a Dem congress, not waited till after the election.
Emergency unemployment bill. He gave away trillions to get millions for the unemployed. Same story now. 75% of the "deal" is giving in to republican "wants".

They are simply a matter of routine housekeeping to prevent the country from defaulting while they hash out the regular revenue and spending bills.

Be very happy to see a clean bill to raise the debt ceiling.

As it stands, the only things being discussed are varying degrees of profoundly losing. Obama has endorsed long time right-wing arguments and frames throughout this charade.

... that this whole "crisis" is a farce, and that there is no point to making long term changes to anything that a future Congress can simply reverse. It is especially idiotic to involve Social Security and Medicare in this circus.

The only win would be refusing to play the stupid game in the first place, and it's too late for that. Now all we have left are different ways to lose.

Politics is something I watch always with this question in the back of mind: "Can the people actually do ANYTHING? or is it all a farce." I have zero fear for the so called "extreme" tea party. The question of whether or not our destiny is in any way in our hands at this point vastly outweighs the old right left questions that seem to have so little to do with our government at this point.

which definately doesn't sound like a win to me, unless it is just to raise taxes on the rich to strengthen entitlements and our infrastructure.

but we all know that isn't what will happen, in the final hour, over the weekend.

when they pass this monstrosity, they will have us all breath a sigh of relief that 'catastrophe' was averted, over our further sacrifices to support the rich.

The sense that the party is over, and now comes the austerity. Tax increases. Program cuts. Doom.

But isn't there some way to really move things forward? What would support WORKING people?

I had a thought the other night, when I heard Republicans saying government needs to act like families, tighten their belts and stop spending in hard times. My thought was that if government is like a head of household, stopping spending isn't what it needs to do, it after all has responsibilities. My talking point would be that what government needs to do is get off the couch, cut its damn hair, and get a god damned job.

What I'm saying is that the progressive stance should focus on the wins government has in supporting the private sector...What economic benefits to companies come from the roads government builds, for example? So the idea should be that government has a stake in private sector success, and it should really set out like a greedy company itself to foster the total success of the general population, for its own benefit.

Maybe its an absurd stance, but its mine and it lets me imagine good things in the future.

Basically, a bare increase is the bare minimum. Ending the Bush tax cuts would be really nice too.

They used to be the Bush tax cuts.

x(

a clean up or down vote on raising the debt ceiling that passes both houses and is signed by the President without attachments.

No cuts that would further endanger the economy and hurt a lot of people.

:toast:

The only real win I see is if there is short-term economic damage brought on by a default, and the Republicons, especially the Tea Party, gets 90% of the blame for it from the independents.

Right after the 2010 elections, I said that the TP would show itself to be composed of the assholes that it is, and would make fools of themselves, leading to progressives taking back over again in 2012, when President Obama is at the top of the ticket. I surely didn't count on his capitulation on extending the Bush tax cuts, nor his gutting of Social Security with bogus "tax holidays". I fear he will sign whatever can be passed through both houses of Congress, and I suspect that whatever that is will not look pretty for us.

But, if it helps us regain control, it might eventually work out for the better. Eventually.

If you care about pissing matches and team sports you might detect a win; but beyond that it's another race to the bottom. What does it mean to win a race to the bottom?

This is negotiations for surrender of the public good.

It is what the Corporations and Wall Street wants that matters.

As long as Corporations are People and Money equals free Speech, you will NEVER matter.

Until Citizens United is Gone, you will not be free.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

happen, major US policy change proposals put off for another more civil debate per normal processes, PObama re-elected (since the primary goal of gop in this stunt is to damage him, a win would include thwarting this).

Not too much to ask.

I'd consider a draw to be a clean vote with a shorter time frame because we will have to play this whole game over again next year.