"It costs me 7 cents to make a sports cap in China"

"I can then sell it in the US for $24". Morning Joe interview with a small, and very young, businessman. He then said that he love to manufacture in the US, but he could not make a profit. Ok, we go to the Michelle Backman argument of ending the minimum wage from there. If a Chinese worker make 10 cents an hour, then what would an American worker have to make to keep these jobs in the country? $3, $2, $1./an hour? Even that couldn't compete with that Chinese worker, especially given the high profits these owners are currently making. Second question. How in the world would an American ever live on those kinds of slave wages? They would have to work hours just to buy a carton of milk. You can add the same concept for all the IT Tech Jobs that are now in India. US simply cannot compete with slave wages in Third World Countries.

UNLESS, the entire US economy totally crashes, as in the "Great Depression". Market and bank failures, businesses closing, people losing jobs en mass, etc. Depressing the entire structure of the US economy.

I sometimes wonder if these is the hidden grand plan. It would most definitely eliminate the middle class in the country, who are a major problem for the elitists.

are executing now. Not sure there is anything we can do about it, either.

The weakness of the United States exposed by the debt crisis (and the Republicans handling it by making it a whole lot worse with this week's Big Deal) tells me that they really believe that the invisible hand of the market will fix the problems created by unregulated capitalism. The people who are winning these political fight are those who opposed any kind of planning or national policy for controlling the negative effects of wealth accumulation.

What they have is more like a ideological commitment to avoid any sort of planning on the national level. Looting isn't a plan, it's a reaction to chaos. I think it's a stretch to call chaos & anarchy a plan just because they try to call it capitalism instead.

Democrats fiddle while the USA burns.

Unemployment among the most highly skilled US IT workers is actually quite low at this point, as the tech sector is doing relatively well. One of the few sectors of the US economy that has largely recovered.

by local standards. I don't think this concept of slave wages and sweatshops really translates for higher skilled positions. Actually one of the biggest problems companies that outsource come to learn is that turnover is fairly high there. Job hopping is pretty common, especially among the young there as they simply leave when newer and better opportunities arise, making training and retention especially challenging.

The real challenging and interesting and more cutting edge work is still being done here. With a falling dollar, I think we may find that outsourcing may not provide the cost savings initially figured though. Maybe, we'll see some jobs come back too...A silver lining perhaps?

can suck it.

PS: I would never pay $24 for a cap.

We'd see deflation if one average all prices were going down, but when you consider the fact that they aren't, and they're actually increasing, you know it's bad.

It's not just that either, because of the fact that people are making less money now than they used to, they have to use credit cards to buy a lot of things, so this means that they are actually paying even more taking interest into account.

If it's possible to make a product here and sell it at a price to sustain your business, even if you personally don't make AS MUCH as the business owner, that's the right thing to do, imho.

That's Gordon Gekko thinking there and it needs to stop. It's business as usual, and business as usual is killing us.

NO MORE BUSINESS AS USUAL.

If we are looking for "good old fashioned values" to get back to, how about getting back to scorn for those who hoard money far and above any amount they could possibly need or even use?

It's economically rational to have the caps made by slaves and imported here to sell for $24. Don't expect the business to apply your ethics to the transaction.

The ethical framework within which the business has to operate is supposed to be made by government.

Am I misunderstanding what you're saying?

In a democracy (or a republic if you insist) government is the peoples only collective expression of principles/values.

Society outlawed slavery because government was elected to do it.

In every tangible way, government is society.

but it's not that way now. That's why I view it as separate, even though I don't like it.

is supposed to be some kind of antithesis to big government is such a load of crap.
Democratic government on every level from village council to President or Prime Minister
is the best and often the only way for the people to express their collective will and
to act on it.

by government alone. They can set import rules and material content, etc but if the buyer will pay $24 for a .30 cap then fie on the buyer. We all could stop buying the junk that is over-priced but we don't because collectively we have decided to be a country that does not deny itself its toys. I am guilty of this too but am trying to stop myself. If we all worked to wake each other up maybe, just maybe....

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." J.K.Galbraith

"The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness." J.K.Galbraith

Adding to my collection. Thanks. :)


Our consumerist society taken to the extreme is destroying us and the planet. I'm just trying to put integrity back into ANY type of business interaction, via service industries, etc., and get away from producing "things" that really have no discernible long-term value.

how many useless things we can easily get? For things that would improve our lives it is difficult if not impossible. The amount of over-priced junk and the shallow inventory is astonishing once you look at it. Quality and sustainability are not part of business anymore.
Thanks for the kudos. I thought it was appropriate for this thread.

Lotsa crooks like that chasing Chinese manufacturing dollars... I actually saw some of them when I was volunteering in New Orleans and they were down there chasing Bush reconstruction dollars. They were trying to donate stuff to the cause by way of selling samples of their crap that they could get manufactured in China. For that set it is simply an easy way to make a living if you have the right connections!

afford $24 for a sports cap. But I guess he's going to take the money while he can and then move on to an emerging market for his profit. What a patriotic American.

businesses of the future need to come up with innovative ideas, to market themselves as made in the US (or in my case made in Canada) with marketing campaigns featuring their workers from local towns, ...a whole campaign on how the company is supporting their country and people...I'm thinking that greed will only last so long before the entire thing implodes.

I'm not saying that we need to be completely protectionist, it's just one idea, and I'm not saying it's the best one, but I'm trying.

Does anyone remember the cartoon movie "Monster's Inc."

The story was about the Business of Monsters that have to jump out of closets to scare kids because the "bottled screams of fear" from the children was what fueled their Monster City (it was their electricity)....UNTIL one Monster decided he didn't like to scare kids, and jumped out of a closet being funny, and made a child laugh...what the Monsters discovered was that the power generated by "bottling happiness" was 10 ten times that of fear and screams.

So the problem of cheap labor around the world must be combated with innovative thinking ..Especially if governments are incapable or unwilling to regulate this.

that in with helping the country. Your idea is wonderful, an entire patriotic campaign that can be designed around domestic manufacturing.

When I was a kid there were TV commercials about union made products, it had a very catchy jingle..."Look for the union label"... and it was a real feel-good thing, supporting unions and getting quality products. We need things like that again.

going to buy his crap if no one has any money?

has $24 to pay for one of his crappy hats.

And he sure as hell can't get that much for it anywhere else.

Eventually he'll have to sell it in China for 8 cents.

people don't think down the road far enough.

Your profit isn't based on your ability to make them for seven cents. Your profit is based on your ability to sell them for $24. That market exists because not every industry has yet been shipped to seven-cents-istan.

Surprise, surprise, free trade fucks over American workers.

This guy is a douche. Let's say it takes $10 to make 1 hat - impossible even for someone here in the US. That still leaves you with $14 per hat. The douche wants to make $23.90 per hat?? Why doesn't he drop his prices if he's making so much per hat?? God, I really hate people like this. What company was he from?? I just want to make sure I never buy one of his over-priced hats.

but couldn't find it. As I said, it was a clip on Morning Joe today. Yeah, real arrogant bastard. He kept trying to defend himself saying over and over I really WANT to manufacture in the US, but cannot make a PROFIT.

Yeah, crying my eyes out for him.

Just because you can make a trillion% profit, that doesn't make it morally ok.

If I could make the sports cap for $5, I could live on the $19/cap profit. I could also feel proud and sleep well at night.

It's the GREED!!!!

The guy who buys slave labor to m ake his overpriced caps or the one who pays $24 to show brand loyalty? I say they both are, and it will continue as long as one can slap a designer label or brand name on something and add value.

If the "free market" works, then why isn't there a competitor who makes caps for 7 cents and then undercuts the $24 price of his competitor? That is the issue---is there some collusion on the part of retailers to all sell caps for $24?

We agree to buy one billion dollars worth of Chinese goods. They agree to reciprocate by buying one billion dollars worth of goods from us.

China makes sports caps for 7 cents by using children as slave laborers and polluting the skies. US makes sports caps for 5 dollars. Every Chinese sports caps gets a $4.93 tariff when imported to the US.

Neoliberals think protectionism is a dirty word but I believe there are some things worth protecting. Tariffs and quotas, anyone?

specifically into the language of business and commerce.

Too many have been brainwashed with all the cheerleading for profit, bottom line, competition, survival of the fittest and so on here in the States.

Words like empathy, compassion, and cooperation have been demonized so much for the last 30 years that they're used as "disses" to make people feel they're weak and can't survive in this world.

People are hesitant to speak up and say that people are more important than profits -- as though they'll be labeled as naive, a socialist/communist/fascist/Nazi (because most people really don't know what any of those mean), a sensitive liberal, yada, yada.

Many small business owners (not beholden to Wall Street) don't want to appear weak, and they fear being compassionate, empathetic, cooperative, etc., will cause them to be viewed as weak.

In my opinion, the only way we, as a society, are going to dig our way out of this mess is to realize that we have to look at the world in a new way. It is NOT business as usual.

Business as usual is literally destroying everything that is good and decent about Humanity.

It's called progress, it's called evolution. WE CAN DO BETTER.

We must realize that empathy, compassion, cooperation, genuine community....LOVE......THESE ARE OUR STRENGTHS.

(The hippies were right. ;) )

For those reading who may cringe at the sight or sound of those words -- let alone seeing them put into action -- I say you're our weakest links. I feel compassion for you that you're so afraid you lash out in anger, fearing everyone is out to "take yours," because goodness knows you've lived a life consumed by the belief that "what's mine is mine!"

Money truly can't buy everything. It most definitely can't buy integrity or respect.

Most of us still need a way to keep a roof over our heads and food on the table. Even with all the bartering clubs and sustainable communities popping up, we still need money to exchange in order to meet the basic needs of ourselves and our loved ones.

If we could just shift the mentality of lack (that there's not enough, while quite a few have PLENTY), the hoarding mentality ("it's mine!!!") and a general lack of reverence for other people, creatures and our planet, we might find our dignity as a nation and find our way once again.

I absolutely choose a life filled with the words in the graphic below. I use those words often, I try to live them, I invite others to join me. For businesses ready to proclaim their support, a directory is being created to promote such businesses:

"enterprising businessmen" will always find a way to close the gap between someone who wants to display their social fitness atop their heads and someone who will make the presentation cheaply.

Government is the only way to regulate that transaction and inject ethical values into it. If we don't like 7 cent ballcaps and their impact on our economy and people, then there's lots that we can do about it via government. Not so much that can be done by appealing to the businessman's ethics - he doesn't have any.

But I think you're wrong. There is a strong social entrepreneurial movement taking place, by those who care about more than profit.

There are even legal structures being developed which make the social mission the legal priority, profit second.

It may not happen in my lifetime or at all, but I believe we have the capacity to focus more on The Common Good in all transactions, with or without government mandates.

Maybe the government will start to reflect grassroots movements one day. We can set the agenda.

Optimistic? Yes. Naive? Perhaps.

But it's better than the nonstop pissing and moaning that's all around and the general dislike of Humanity I see from both sides of the aisle.

Yes. That's what I'm saying. We (through the society/government we create) make "legal structures".

Absent legal intervention, "social entrepreneurialism" will always lose, if not to Wal-mart then at least to those who use greenwashing as a marketing ploy.

There's nothing wrong with optimism, but there's been far too many wasted tears over expecting human values from capitalism. It works the way it does because that is the only way it can. Government has to intervene to make rules when it's doing something wrong.

Point taken.

:hi:

Worse, they look at things from a short-term profit point of view, rather than long-term. As long as executives/managers earn their bonuses in the short-term, little else matters.

What a fucking outrage.... hell the idiot should hold out for at LEAST 5 cents. Greedy fucking workers...
(sarcasm)


Really, how low do you go? $24 with 7 cents labor. Revolting...

where inventors/entrepreneurs pitch billionaires to invest in their fledgling businesses. One of the women was making shoes and the first question one of the billionaires asked was, "Where are you currently manufacturing?" The woman said Florida and the billionaire asked, "Why aren't you offshore yet?"

It's to the point where every single business is supposed to manufacture elsewhere without question.

MBA's profit over sound principles. may they all go to hell.

I can get Chinese baseball cap $1.00 minimum order of 24, US made I found for $3.50 with minimum order of 12.
The wholesalers are both probably making good profit on each, so this probably means that US made hats cost maybe $2.50 as opposed to 7 cents for Chinese. They both make as much money per hat, and I'm pretty sure if you can sell the Chinese hat for $24.99, you can easily sell the US hat for $27.99 with a nice big made in the USA sticker on it, still making the same amount of money per hat.

n/t

nt

could be a selling point right there and I think there's a burgeoning domestic market waiting to be tapped, especially by more affluent customers - the only ones that actually have disposable income at the moment anyways. It takes a little better marketing and creativity, but I think there's a growing number of people within the country that would love to buy things made domestically - if it's a quality product to begin with. Those that have the money are always willing to pay a little more for quality.

My guess is that the guy selling these hats is a hack and selling a run of the mill, generic piece of crap item that is mass produced. China and other countries will more than likely win on that end, unless tariffs are reintroduced. Even still, it may be cheaper to manufacture abroad because of the huge cost discrepancy and lack of labor protections in those countries. But that would at least make the manufacturer think twice about doing so.

how little he paid to have it made.

Let's talk to him in a year and see how that plan is working out for him.

There is no way that I am going to pay full price something made in the third world. Since labor is dirt cheap (and we have no choice since most textile mills are in these places) one cannot justify paying $60-$80 dollars for a dress shirt only because it has a designer name on it.

I assume they have been making plans to deal with the possibility of revolution for decades. It would give them an excuse to kill off millions of "useless eaters" in a short time.

What's the contingeny plan if they lose, though? Cayman Islands? Dubai? The immense Bush estate in Paraguay comes to mind...again.

wage by 22% in some of its more industrialized provinces. Manufacturers are also coming under fire for minimum wage avoidance by keeping trained workers as "trainees". Factories are now allowed, even encouraged, to unionize.

The oligarchs have been fighting worker reforms, but the Chinese have a history of being occupied, so they have said no go to the oligarchs.

Someone will save the day with free trade agreements with countries that let you send death squads after anyone that tries to organize a union, so their wages will never go up.

I'm sure you could make workers in North Korea work for half of what a Chinese worker makes in a free trade agreement, especially if you can post armed guards and tanks at the front entrance and all over the factory floor. If you throw in a little food in the deal, they'll probably be grateful, especially given their starvation.

are at the rate of making them in China.

The system is rigged.

tell you he has to pay for labor, materials, shipping, and advertising and I'd guarantee you he would put heavy emphases on labor. to me the answer is simple if you want to sell it here, build it here. that would go a long way to this globalazation crap, if you want to sell cars in india, build them india. =

make a profit. he just couldn't make a 35000% profit.

but capital gravitates to the biggest profit. the biggest profit is usually 1) new technology; 2) wage arbitrage; 3)piracy of the commons; 4) fraud, including bubbles, ponzi schemes, & government war contracts.

I don't have a huge problem with this by the way. If it was in their interest to make stuff here they'd do so.

Where we need to push back is to do things that make it more profitable for them to employ Americans at reasonable wages than to go to low wage, low regulation countries. We must stop subsidizing companies for shipping jobs overseas. In my opinion, these Free Trade deals starting with NAFTA have been a disaster. Trade deals must include wage and environmental standards WITH TEETH. In other words China, if you don't start paying people better within a set period of time we're outta here. Tariffs should be reinstated. We've tried it Corporate America's way and it hasn't worked.

We need to rebuild our middle class so that we can become a great economic power again.

How about in other countries? American labor is just not very competitive. The value of the labor required to produce that hat is determined on the world market. Bachman has a point - why not give American workers the option to compete even if it means the wage is less than the current minimum?

That's total bullshit.

What an incredibly low form of human life. I didn't see that segment but I can't believe little mister wonderful even admitted that.

He could produce here all right, with a bit less profit margin. Who says it has to be that high? What unbelievable greed. Tax that jackass bigtime NOW. And all the rest like him.

He'll fail in due time, they always do.

It makes me ill.

to a "low cost" location the *moving expenses* are tax deductible? Is this the case?

But that, of course, would be penalizing job creators!