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S&P issues downgrade to WH prior to release, WH finds 2 TRILLION DOLLAR ERROR by S&P (LINK)

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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 07:24 PM
Original message
S&P issues downgrade to WH prior to release, WH finds 2 TRILLION DOLLAR ERROR by S&P (LINK)
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rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 07:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. can't tell the Onion from reality anymore
Is this real?
(fuck - i need to move to another planet)
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Poll_Blind Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. I could not believe it was a real story until I triple checked the link and the page to make...
..sure it wasn't some hoax that got into the Google News feed.

PB
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #1
23. You know... who would know? Does anyone anywhere in any
dimension understand what a pile of poo this all is? I don't believe anyone. Not anyone, anywhere in any dimension anymore. I'm going to go get some oreos.
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 07:29 PM
Response to Original message
3. And now it's been announced as a downgrade
NEW YORK | Fri Aug 5, 2011 8:20pm EDT

(Reuters) - The United States lost its top-notch AAA credit rating from Standard & Poor's on Friday, in a dramatic reversal of fortune for the world's largest economy.

S&P cut the long-term U.S. credit rating by one notch to AA-plus on concerns about growing budget deficits.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/08/06/us-usa-debt-downgrade-idUSTRE7746VF20110806


What a fuck-up.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 07:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. This is on the republicans ...... boner, cantor, mcconnell
got 98% of what they wanted and look what it got this country
the republicans are bringing this country down and proud of it

Write to all the republican congress people and tell them to get back to DC and fix this country
no time for vacations at this time ......... work to do ......... raise taxes on the wealthy
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. obama and the dems went along with it, it is "on" all of them nt
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. We had no choice. It was no deal, and an even lesser raiting
or a crap deal and a downgrade.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. Of course we had a choice.
Obama had 3 viable options to avoid default. Coin Seigniorage by Treasury, Ron Paul's plan to retire the $1.6 Trillion debt held by the Fed, or citing the 14th Amendment.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. You trust this supreme court with the 14th amendment? You suggest we follow the
tea party/Paul plan?

Sorry. We I'm back to, we had no choice.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. First, you didn't address coin seigniorage.
Second, even Larry Tribe said the 14th Amendment option was viable.

Third, Ron Paul's plan was and is an excellent solution. There's nothing in it for progressives to take issue with, period. It simply amounts to the government canceling debts it owes to itself. I would imagine most Teabaggers wouldn't have the first clue what this even entails. Dean Baker, Yves Smith, Paul Krugman and many other progressives expressed support for this option.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Larry Tribe said the 14th amendment solution, isn't a vialble option.
Edited on Fri Aug-05-11 09:15 PM by mzmolly
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/08/opinion/08tribe.html

"Several law professors and senators, and even Treasury Secretary Timothy F. Geithner, have suggested that section 4 of the 14th Amendment, known as the public debt clause, might provide a silver bullet. This provision states that “the validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law ... shall not be questioned.” They argue that the public debt clause is sufficient to nullify the ceiling — or can be used to permit the president to borrow money without regard to the ceiling.

Both approaches provide the false hope of a legal answer that obviates the need for a real solution."


So you're a Paul supporter? Paul appears to think the Fed is an entity of Government. That's his first mistake.

"Q: Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank?

A: There are actually 12 different Federal Reserve Banks around the country, and they are owned by big private banks. But the banks don’t necessarily run the show. Nationally, the Federal Reserve System is led by a Board of Governors whose seven members are appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate."


http://www.factcheck.org/2008/03/federal-reserve-bank-ownership/

I've not seen the Krugman endorsement of the Paul plan. Got a link?

Regarding coin seigniorage, it's not a given that it was a viable option.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
24. Larry Tribe actually said the 14th amendment option WAS viable.
Edited on Fri Aug-05-11 10:50 PM by girl gone mad
http://my.firedoglake.com/phoenix/2011/07/24/even-larry-tribe-now-agrees-fourteenth-amendment-is-a-viable-option-so-why-wont-obama-use-it

"As for whether the courts or anyone else would or could try to stop Obama should he invoke the Fourteenth, even Laurence Tribe, who is known to be close to the Obama administration — close enough to carry its water, as he blatantly did with his pronouncement earlier this month that the Fourteenth Amendment didn’t trump the debt ceiling legislation — has admitted that this is highly unlikely: “This is not a circumstance in which the courts have any plausible point of entry.” Tribe even went so far as to dismiss the threat of impeachment as “not politically a very plausible scenario."


Read what http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/91224/ron-paul-debt-ceiling-federal-reserve">Dean Baker wrote about Paul's plan (and maybe brush up on monetary operations):

Representative Ron Paul has hit upon a remarkably creative way to deal with the impasse over the debt ceiling: have the Federal Reserve Board destroy the $1.6 trillion in government bonds it now holds. While at first blush this idea may seem crazy, on more careful thought it is actually a very reasonable way to deal with the crisis. Furthermore, it provides a way to have lasting savings to the budget.

The basic story is that the Fed has bought roughly $1.6 trillion in government bonds through its various quantitative easing programs over the last two and a half years. This money is part of the $14.3 trillion debt that is subject to the debt ceiling. However, the Fed is an agency of the government. Its assets are in fact assets of the government. Each year, the Fed refunds the interest earned on its assets in excess of the money needed to cover its operating expenses. Last year the Fed refunded almost $80 billion to the Treasury. In this sense, the bonds held by the Fed are literally money that the government owes to itself.

Unlike the debt held by Social Security, the debt held by the Fed is not tied to any specific obligations. The bonds held by the Fed are assets of the Fed. It has no obligations that it must use these assets to meet. There is no one who loses their retirement income if the Fed doesn’t have its bonds. In fact, there is no direct loss of income to anyone associated with the Fed’s destruction of its bonds. This means that if Congress told the Fed to burn the bonds, it would in effect just be destroying a liability that the government had to itself, but it would still reduce the debt subject to the debt ceiling by $1.6 trillion. This would buy the country considerable breathing room before the debt ceiling had to be raised again. President Obama and the Republican congressional leadership could have close to two years to talk about potential spending cuts or tax increases. Maybe they could even talk a little about jobs.

In addition, there’s a second reason why Representative Paul’s plan is such a good idea. As it stands now, the Fed plans to sell off its bond holdings over the next few years. This means that the interest paid on these bonds would go to banks, corporations, pension funds, and individual investors who purchase them from the Fed. In this case, the interest payments would be a burden to the Treasury since the Fed would no longer be collecting (and refunding) the interest.



Coin seigniorage was and remains the best choice. The legality and viability of this approach was hashed out by lawyers and economists months in advance. Here's a good place to start if you want to catch up:

http://neweconomicperspectives.blogspot.com/2011/07/coin-seigniorage-legal-alternative-and.html
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. After the criminal complicity in the mortgage meltdown
and now something like this, WHY DOES ANYBODY PAY ATTENTION TO THESE PEOPLE ANYMORE????

You do realize that they'll raise OUR adjustable rates (CC, mortgages, etc) and the banks will make a BUTTLOAD more in profit BECAUSE THEY'RE STILL GETTING MONEY FROM THE FED AT 0%. It's more robbery of the people. This shit needs to STOP!
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Fool Count Donating Member (878 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. "Error" is too strong a word for this. With all those "future deficit projections"
being for most part sucked out of a finger anyhow, $2 trillion is probably a small fraction
of the confidence interval and can be more properly called "a small disagreement".
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flamingdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
12. The White House called them AMATEURS! S&P ARE MORANS
According to the Rachel Maddow show

:headbang:
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
14. S&P is only off by $2 Trillion dollars, hey that's pretty close for those asshats!
Edited on Fri Aug-05-11 09:18 PM by Major Hogwash
Except for one thing, close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades!!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. $2 Trillion dollars!!! That's almost enough to pay for Boehner's greens fees for the next year!!
Jesus Christ!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
16. We need to get the message out -- S&P sux!!!
That's all there is to it.

Pitchforks and torches!!!
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kenny blankenship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
17. It's deliberate and political, not an "error."
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:30 PM
Response to Original message
18. These asshats are soooo toast on Monday!!!!
Headline New York: S&P sinks in pool of shit due to lies on Friday night!!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
19. These are the same assklowns that sold junk bonds!!!
Barney Frank says so, and he would know!!!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. Well set 'em up Joe, one for my baby, . . .
And one more kick for the road.
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mmonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
21. Understandable.
It is afterall, S&P, the collateralized debt obligation specialists.

:sarcasm:
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
22. This is so weird, a huge error by a ratings outfit. They have zero credibility now.
Just like George Bush.
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amborin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. did they ever? since the financial meltdown?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. No, never.
They should have been put out of business and many thrown in jail for taking what amounted to bribes in exchange for giving AAA ratings to toxic garbage.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Dupe.
Edited on Fri Aug-05-11 11:06 PM by girl gone mad
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KelleyKramer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-05-11 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
26. This is bullsh*t

They have no credibility at all.

I have a sinking feeling that bad things are in play again.

These people are very good at playing out their disaster capitalism hijinks.

I think we are being screwed again!
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Major Hogwash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-06-11 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Not to worry, the mainstream media will torch S&P for making this stinkeroo mistake
A huge mistake, a $2 Trillion dollar mistake.
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