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rdking647 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:16 PM
Original message
Its time to ban high frequency trading
the damage it causes is incalcuable.. as the computers take over and directly affect peoples sense of savings and wealth it hurts the economy. HFT's trade in increments of 50 milli seconds. they trade so fat that the distance from your actual computer to the exchange computers can affect your profit/loss.
the value of a company doesnt change that quickly. period...

heres what I propose...
require every trade on the exchange to be delayed by 1 second.... that wil stop the HFT bullshit and allow companies to be valued based on their worth as decided by humans rather than a soulless unthinking machine I think HFT is actually one of teh worst dangers to the country. they can crash the markets,destroying peoples retirements etc... all based on nothing...

Its time to ban them.
either make them delay their trades by a second or 2,or tax any profits from stocks held less than 1 minutes at 100%...

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banned from Kos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:20 PM
Response to Original message
1. what about simply reinstating the uptick rule?
seriously. No one gets wigged out be upward lurches in the market. Its the HFT selling on every downtick that results in plunges like the Flash Crash of May 2010.
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rdking647 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. that would also work
but something has to be done. and soon before we all crash and burn
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banned from Kos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. the uptick rule worked well for many decades
its simple and elegant, where banning fast computers and access is messy.


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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. Crash and burn? It's only a market.
Why is everyone so emotionally tied up in stock prices going up?

Prices going down would be better. Then you can get big, fat dividends, for much smaller investments.
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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Market distortion is never a good idea
Rules like the uptick rule (which bans short selling, except when price rises) creat false biases in price action.

Pretending that the market is healthy is not the same as the market really being healthy.

The uptick rule prevents natural short selling from revealing immediate weakness in the market. This weakness is then stored up until it can overcome the bias and price crashes more vigorously, to return to its true value. Because the professionals understand this, they have exited their long positions before this eventuality. The only people holding the baby are the amateurs, who are deceived by the uptick rule into believing in the strength of their holdings.

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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. I would rather accomplish it another way
Edited on Fri Aug-19-11 03:50 PM by Warpy
I would put an 0.1 cent tax on transactions. Yes, a tenth of a cent. This means that small investors who do a dozen or so trades a year would pay a dime. HFT, which often occur at a thousand times a second, would become unprofitable very quickly.

All those fancy hedge fund computers that are skewing the stock market so badly would become museum pieces practically overnight.

Of course, reestablishing the uptick rule makes sense, too, but the tiny trade tax would also generate a huge amount of revenue, something this country desperately needs.
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xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. I'm all for governments taxing these transactions. Nt
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:44 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yep.
The profit is completely uncoupled from the purpose of the stock market. A companies value does not actually change in 50 ms.
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True Earthling Donating Member (373 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Aug-19-11 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
7. HFT is a major negative on the stock market and economy...
"High frequency trading is a major major negative for the stock market. It's a major negative for the economy. It doesn't do anything for the economy. It doesn't add any value to the economy. It doesn't add any social value. These high frequency traders start the day owning nothing and end the day owning nothing but during the day they account for between 50 and 65 per cent of the volume."

- Leon Cooperman (go to the 2:40 mark)... http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000040115


On August 8 high frequency traders made a record $60 million in profit while the stock market lost $850 billion in value...


High-frequency traders have roughly tripled their stock trades this month, estimates Tabb Group, a markets-research firm in New York. That has boosted their share of overall U.S. stock trading volume to about 65%, up from about 53% during the months before the August turmoil, according to the research firm.

That increase has come amid unusually heavy trading; on Aug. 8, as the Dow Jones Industrial Average sank 635 points, New York Stock Exchange composite volume saw its fourth-biggest trading day on record.

On that same day, high-frequency traders made record profits of about $60 million in U.S. stock markets alone, Tabb estimates. That doesn't sound like a huge amount in the context of global markets, but that daily profit—while likely not sustainable, analysts and traders say—would translate into an annual gain of about $15 billion.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904253204576510371408072058.html


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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Where did the $60 million come from?
If some high frequency trades made $60 million on August 8th, other high frequency traders (the traders agreeing to take the other side of those trades) lost the same amount.
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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. High frequency trading does not drive the market anywhere
High frequency trading, if anything, drives the market back to its mean, or true value.

Look at what you have said above. "directly affect people's sense of savings and wealth" This is not material damage. It is damage to a "sense."

The flash crash of 2010 lasted only a matter of days, before true value reasserted itself, as the market professionals knew that it would.

Professional liars are luring the public into suspecting computers of destroying the economy, to prevent you from seeing that the fundamentals have destroyed the economy.

Ignore this shiny thing and focus on what is really wrong. The market is falling for true, valid, enduring reasons. All that HFT is doing is keeping you informed of that truth, many, many times per second.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh, let's not bring facts into a rant about "dem evil com puters"
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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Sorry. Thanks for the reminder.
It's early, here. I was still sleepy and overcome with logic. :-)
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 04:12 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. No logic to be found in your post.
Just gibberish.
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MemeSmith Donating Member (183 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-11 03:16 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Is there any chance...
That you'll make an argument to substantiate that claim?
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-11 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. This subject has been hashed and rehashed many times now.
Edited on Mon Aug-22-11 03:19 AM by girl gone mad
I've commented on it for years. Search the economy forum. Front running, insider trading, quote stuffing, market rigging.. a scam designed to extract unearned "fees" from smaller investors.

Here's the http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/24/business/24trading.html?_r=4&partner=rss&emc=rss">New York Times from 2009:

Yet high-frequency specialists clearly have an edge over typical traders, let alone ordinary investors. The Securities and Exchange Commission says it is examining certain aspects of the strategy.

“This is where all the money is getting made,” said William H. Donaldson, former chairman and chief executive of the New York Stock Exchange and today an adviser to a big hedge fund. “If an individual investor doesn’t have the means to keep up, they’re at a huge disadvantage.”

(snip)

High-frequency traders often confound other investors by issuing and then canceling orders almost simultaneously. Loopholes in market rules give high-speed investors an early glance at how others are trading. And their computers can essentially bully slower investors into giving up profits — and then disappear before anyone even knows they were there.

(snip)

In less than half a second, high-frequency traders gained a valuable insight: the hunger for Broadcom was growing. Their computers began buying up Broadcom shares and then reselling them to the slower investors at higher prices. The overall price of Broadcom began to rise.



Yes, HFTs do move markets, often dramatically. I've watched them do it many times. They currently dominate market making on almost all stocks. Due to the lack of any real diversity in their algos, they become lemming programs following each other off of the cliff once the remaining liquidity they haven't chased away disappears entirely

ETA: I know of countless investors and traders who have left US equities markets as a direct result of the HFT takeover. It has infected confidence.
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RB TexLa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. Why stop there? We should go back to paying for stocks with eighths of gold


:silly:
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 04:11 AM
Response to Original message
15. Implement a Tobin tax.
Edited on Sat Aug-20-11 04:16 AM by girl gone mad
Forget the nonsense about uptick rule, it's a pointless distraction. Short selling was almost totally banned in 2008, but that did nothing to stop market panic and free falls.

HFT is indefensible since it amounts to frontrunning. It isn't liberal or progressive to support this type of theft.
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SoCalDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-20-11 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
17. Just put a 30-day HOLD on all stock purchases:)
and proof that they could accept actual delivery of what they "buy"..:evilgrin:
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TransitJohn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-21-11 07:29 AM
Response to Original message
19. Financial transaction tax. eom
n/t
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Mimosa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-22-11 02:33 AM
Response to Original message
21. AGREE. n/t
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