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The "Age of Soyuz"? How's that workin' out for you, Vlad?

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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 02:55 PM
Original message
The "Age of Soyuz"? How's that workin' out for you, Vlad?
You man-boob sportin', lion killin', horseback ridin', artifact findin', hunk o' martial arts master... The "Age of Soyuz", huh? I'll buy that for a dollar! LOLOL

Thanks to the US departure from manned space flight, the International Space Station might have to be abandoned "temporarily". I'm here to tell ya that without CONSTANT upkeep and maintenance, the ISS will very soon be in such bad condition as to be uninhabitable. On top of that, any US Astronaut who straps a Soyuz on in order to go for a ride to the ISS has a well-developed death wish.

"Age of Soyuz" my ASS.
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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. If my memory is correct it was the US that lost astronauts, not Russia.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Russia has lost a number of their own.
Including being the only nation to actually lose people in space, rather than during launch or landing.
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cherokeeprogressive Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. You're kidding, right? No cosmonauts have ever been lost? Do you wanna rethink that?
Here, read for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents

What about these three? They died on Soyuz 11.

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theoldman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I stand corrected.
Please read comments from other posters.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. That's correct. That happened 40 years ago, in 1971.
Since that time, there have been no Soyuz-related deaths. Total Soyuz-related deaths comes to four.

Fourteen people have died in Shuttle accidents. There were two accidents that ended in fatalities, just as there have been two Soyuz accidents. The number of people lost, however is much greater in the Shuttle accidents, the last of which happened a scant few years ago.

You called this one incorrectly.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. While OP rant isn't based on logic looking at higher number of deaths on Space Shuttle is ...
Edited on Mon Aug-29-11 05:47 PM by Statistical
also illogical.

There are more Space Shuttle deaths because ..... there are more people of the Space Shuttle.

Space Shuttle had 14 fatalities over 135 missions involving a total of 912 crew (including repeat crew). That's 14 fatalities out of 945 or 1.5% of total crew.
Soyuz had 4 fatalities out of 110 missions involving a total of 308 crew (including repeat crew). That's 4 fatalities out of 308 or ~1.3%.

Still the first Soyuz mission had 1 fatality simply because the other two seats were empty. Had that mission included a full crew it would have been 6 fatalities or 1.9% of crew.

A better metric is % of missions which resulted in loss of crew and vehicle. 2 of 135 on Space Shuttle and 2 of 110 on Soyuz. The two programs are roughly equal in terms of risk.

Space is dangerous (for those who are interested).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_spaceflight-related_accidents_and_incidents

There have been many more ground based deaths and many more "close calls" but both programs have been very successful in mitigating the risks involving with putting a human into space.

I would say this is the "closest" of the close calls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soyuz_T-10-1

Shortly before the planned liftoff, fuel spilled around the base of the Soyuz-U rocket and caught fire at T-90 seconds.<2> The launch control team activated the escape system but the control cables had already burned, and the Soyuz crew could not activate or control the escape system themselves. Twenty seconds later, launch control was finally able to activate the escape system by radio command, by which time the booster was engulfed in flames. Explosive bolts fired to separate the descent module from the service module and the upper launch shroud from the lower. Then the escape system motor fired, dragging the orbital module and descent module, encased within the upper shroud, free of the booster with an acceleration of 14 to 17g (137 to 167 m/s²) for five seconds. Two seconds after the escape system activated, the booster rocket exploded, destroying the launch complex. Four paddle-shaped stabilizers on the outside of the shroud opened and the descent module separated from the orbital module at an altitude of 650 m, dropping free of the shroud. The descent module discarded its heat shield, exposing the solid-fuel landing rockets, and deployed a fast-opening emergency parachute. Landing occurred about four kilometers from the launch pad. The two crew members were badly bruised after the high acceleration, but had survived.<1>

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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 08:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. My Favorite observation was when a Senator (Or other politician) went up to space in the Shuttle
The politician was bragging about how great it was to be one such a sophisticated well built machine and how much confidence the people on the ground on the shuttle taking off. After a few minutes of such tripe, one of the astronauts, said that is right that is why every person on the ground is at least five miles away from the Shuttle when it takes off.

I know this was NOT Senator Glenn, as an ex-Mercury Astronaut he knew better.

Just a comment that being on top of that much fuel that is set to burn up rapidly, is inherently dangerous. Re-entry is almost as dangerous given the amount of heat generated during reentry. Anything sent up to space is subject to severe failure, no matter how much attention to detail is involved.
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Warren DeMontague Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:01 PM
Response to Original message
3. No one is more in favor of supporting NASA and Manned Space Flight than me, but let's be honest.

"any US Astronaut who straps a Soyuz on in order to go for a ride to the ISS has a well-developed death wish."

That's a bullshit statement. The Soyuz has a VERY good safety track record going back multiple decades. In terms of safety (i.e. safe trips vs. astronauts/cosmonauts killed) you would NOT want to put the Space Shuttle up against the Soyuz system. You just wouldn't.

'Course, the shuttle was more advanced, more comfortable, more versatile, all around a far more AMAZING piece of machinery than the Soyuz could ever be, but it also had some built-in design flaws that made it more dangerous.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. The most recent accident with Soyuz that ended with the death of
anyone was in 1971. It's been remarkably safe, frankly. You appear to be confused on this issue. That's 40 years without a single death. Our Shuttle program cannot claim that. It's really important to get your facts right in any rant you post.
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Statistical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
7. The rants about either Soyuz or Space Shuttle being unsafe are misplaced
Edited on Mon Aug-29-11 03:39 PM by Statistical
The Soyuz program has had 110 manned flights two of which resulted in fatalities.
The Space shuttle program has had 135 manned flights two of which resulted in fatalities.

Space is dangerous. A ~1% fatality rate for either program is an acceptable and realistic consequence of going into space. Every astronaut (US or Russian) is aware of the risk and will gladly wager that 1% to be one of a handful of humans given the privilege of going into space. 6 Billion people on the planet today, somewhere around ~300B homo sapiens (modern man) have been existed. Less than 1000 have been into space. Think about that. Less than one in 300 million humans gets the chance to "slip the surly bonds of Earth". A 1% risk is more than worth it.

Based on the limited sample size and the infrequency of fatalities (roughly 1%) STATISTICALLY SPEAKING the two have comparable (and largely undefined due to small sample size) risk.

That being said the Space Shuttle was much larger, more capable, and it will be missed. The full extent of its operational range can't be replaced by the Soyuz (or any combination of existing space craft). The Soyuz program had its fatalities early on (1961 & 1971). Over the decades the Soyuz program actually became safer because the design was perfected and simplified. On the other hand the Space Shuttle program had a decade of service and 25 mission before it has a loss of crew (pretty much unheard of in any manned space programs). Over the decades the Space Shuttle program wasn't given proper funding, and the orbiters were used far far far beyond their intended lifespan (originally intended to be retired and replaced by next-gen spacecraft by 2001) making the program riskier.

The Space Shuttle program needed to end. We haven't built a new orbiter since 1990. Imagine driving a 20 year old car. Now imagine there are only 4 of them in the world so every part is custom made. Now imagine the companies that built your car no longer exist and neither do a lot of the design and technical documents. Now imagine that instead of taking your car on a daily commute you strap it to a 1.6 million pound bomb and take it into space. That is the Space Shuttle program.

The Space Shuttle program HAD to end. It should have ended 5-10 years ago. The only sad part if the nation that put a man on the moon didn't care enough to have a replacement ready.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-29-11 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
8. In comparing Soyuz and Shuttle missions,
there have been 4 fatalities with Soyuz and 14 with the Shuttle. Two fatal accidents for each during a mission. The record is actually quite good for both, considering the risks involved. But, it's a mistake to equate Soyuz with fatalities. They've been fatality free for 40 years.
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