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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:28 AM
Original message
Two girlfriends of Loughner speak, one says he is faking mental illness
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 10:50 AM by jakeXT
http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/crime/loughners-ex-girlfriend-he-had-a-temper-and-did-drugs-01132011
edit:(contains only part of the interview, full interview on kgun9 site)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrWx2w5Ue88


I don't know how many girlfriends he had, but I'm surprised how different the parents are described


"What do you think happened to Jared that it got to this point?" KGUN9 asked. "I honestly think he had some sort of definite dysfunction in his family, like his parents were just there but lacked parental role in life."


"There's a lot of people out there right now who are saying Jared Loughner is mentally ill, I know you're not a doctor, but your gut feeling, is he mentally ill or an accumulation of everything you talked about?" "I don't think he's mentally ill at all. I think he's honestly, I think he's faking everything. I think he's planned it, planned for sometime."

http://www.kgun9.com/Global/story.asp?S=13834898
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
1. crazy like a fox.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
90. are you saying he is not mentally ill? nt
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #90
91. are you saying psychiatry has advanced to the point where "remote diagnoses" are reliable?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. nope... just asking
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 03:35 PM by seabeyond
what the purpose of your post is. figured it was better me asking instead of guessing. thanks.

your post carried on to another thread. i figured that was what you were saying. thanks.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=192791&mesg_id=194389
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ret5hd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. But yet you and others have already made a definitive diagnoses!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #94
95. nope. i havent. i am in the camp that it looks like possibly he is but i dont know
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 03:46 PM by seabeyond
you dont know and the person that insists the shooter is nuts, really doesnt know. i could also see he is on drugs during writings and that is why they are odd.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. this has been a point i make when people say pushing rw with no evidence. pushing crazy with no
evidence.

he could be. or maybe not. dont know. evidence points to it.

could be rw. maybe not. dont know. evidence points to it.

but that is about the best that could be said.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. He would not be the first person to intentionally fake it...........
Some people get off on shocking others. I will reserve judgment until he is evaluated by a professional.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. to be fair, nor would she be the first ex girlfriend to think the worst of her ex....
I mean, how rare is THAT?
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
47. I thought this guy
was a LONER. Loners don't have girlfriends. Something doesn't smell right. Maybe he's just a pure psychopath w/ no conscience whatsoever?

Who knows?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #47
53. It appears he became a loner in recent years, while
he was in high school he still had friend and apparently girlfriends.
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femrap Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
99. This tells me he developed
schizophrenia. This is exactly what happened to my dear cousin. It hit him during the college years. It's difficult to understand that his parents didn't get him some help. The mother had a city job so she must have had insurance. She made decent money. The problem could have been with the father who has not worked outside the home.

Denial can be very strong.

It's too bad the college didn't notify a Social Worker or Public Health Official and ask for an assessment of him. So very tragic.

But I'm so glad to hear that Giffords is moving her legs and opened her eye! I'm encouraged.
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So Ill Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #4
107. Ha Ha
Good point. How rare indeed!
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jtown1123 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. I will also reserve my judgment. Maybe he is one of those really brilliant people who scorn
the common man for our meaningless unfulfilled existence and just wanted to create "chaos" and manipulate everyone like the "puppets" we are. Would definitely be interesting to see. I still can't say either way until he's been evaluated.
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. His friend mentioned that he cited "Mein Kampf", because his mother either is Jewish or has Jewish
ancestors
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #3
17. so he faked years of disruptive, delusional behavior?
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montanto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
31. Yeah,
it would require an extreme amount of patience and dedication to the task of sounding insane to have kept up that "insane sounding" rhetoric for years. Who has the patience for that but an insane person? And for what? Shooting twenty people, killing six, IS insane. You don't have to cover yourself with gibberish, you can just go out and do it. "Faking insanity" is the seed of a conspiracy theory in this case. We will constantly be battling over whether the guy "faked it." Jesus, the fucking guy is crazy.
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Maru Kitteh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #31
83. Not to mention, he would have had to do it 24hrs a day for 5+ years, everywhere, with EVERYONE.
Apparently some peoples deep and abiding NEED for this guy to be of sound mind has completely overridden their ability to reason.
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #17
45. I don't think people fake disruptive, delusional behavior.
But some people get off on shocking people. That shocking type behavior makes them appear mentally ill. My only point is that just because someone acts mentally ill does not always end up being true. By mentally ill I am talking about medically or legally mentally ill. I will agree that he is nuts/crazy/etc. in street talk language.

I am not saying he will not be evaluated as mentally ill. I will just wait and see what the Pro who evaluates him says.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
103. Disruptive delusional behavior won't help an insanity defense,
a bunch of the other stuff will. Particularly the gov't controlling grammar to control the people stuff.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
41. Do you believe a sane person could do what he did?
The act itself could be described as insane..I do not believe any sane person could ever do such a thing..
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Little Star Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
59. Are you talking about street vernacular sane/insane? ......
I do believe that murderers are insane in the street vernacular sense. Legally maybe not so much. Medically? Depends on what the professionals diagnose.
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #59
70. He may very well be insane
but not enough to qualify for Not Guilty By Reason of Insanity.
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #41
97. And what is your opinion
of combatants that are instructed to kill people they don't know and then comply with that instruction?

Is that not an insane act?

That is done every day by soldiers "following orders," around the world.

The use of the word insane is over-used, especially by those that have never been, never seen, cannot "imagine," someone doing something like that. Or ever been insane themselves. Even murder is not a litmus test for insanity. If so, all soldiers would be locked up in asylums, no?

Were the participants in the famous Stanford psychology experiment to torture fellow students they were instructed to extract/interrogate that soon became homicidal, also insane?

People can be persuaded to kill and not be insane. Who is insane now?

I think all soldiers are insane but that is just my opinion.

I read an interesting passage in a crime novel I was reading recently. A detective and a psychologist were discussing a perpetrator's motive and access to a murder scene they tainted and said that suspect "was in a position to manipulate the evidence. Same old story, with twisted types it's always about control."

To which the psychologist answered; "With everyone it's about control. The key is how you go about it."

I think there is something to be learned there.




Hands off my Social Security!
Hands off Latin America!



Just my dos centavos

robdogbucky
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:36 AM
Response to Original message
6. IME/O, I find it difficult to fake schizophrenia. The writings and thought processes have a method
to them that is hard to fake.
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MedicalAdmin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
44. Did you just say that you find it difficult to fake schizophrenia?
OK. Ahem. (backs away slowly)
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Brickbat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #44
87. HA! That's what I get when I post before coffee.
:rofl:
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:37 AM
Response to Original message
7. Two women who are dumb enough to have been his girlfriend don't seem like credible sources
We know they're dumb.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Heh even stupid people know when someone is faking it.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
27. That really is unfair, especially considering they both seem to
imply they broke up with him.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
57. That Ashley girl doesn't reason very well at all.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:36 PM by Catherina



"When you saw him 3 or 4 months ago, what was it like then?" KGUN9 asked. "It was like staring into somebody you didn't know," Figueroa commented.

"He didn't care about anything. He kind of had attitude that it didn't matter, that nothing mattered. There was nothing behind his eyes, is that what you're saying? It was like staring into someone soulless basically."



How does her she reconcile that with her assertion that he's not crazy and is faking it? Especially if she believes his plan was to die during the rampage. Oh boy.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:50 PM
Response to Reply #57
62. I get the impression that she's leveraging the incident to get attention
Pathetic.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. Same impression here. Same conclusion too. n/t
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #62
105. Some posters on DU complained we don't know about Loughner.
What about his girlfriend(s)? Where are the interviews? The girl gives an interview and now she just want attention? Give me a break.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
9. Told you tool just establishing phoney diagnosis. GF would know.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. gf broke up with him 6 or 7 years ago. has had no contact with him for years
she most definitely would not know shit about him now.
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woo me with science Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
11. I dunno. She also acknowledged a significant change in recent months,
which would be consistent with the onset of schizophrenia:

"When you saw him 3 or 4 months ago, what was it like then?" KGUN9 asked. "It was like staring into somebody you didn't know," Figueroa commented.

"He didn't care about anything. He kind of had attitude that it didn't matter, that nothing mattered. There was nothing behind his eyes, is that what you're saying? It was like staring into someone soulless basically."

"Did you see a noticeable decline? Was he much more "normal" in high school than 3 or 4 months ago?" KGUN9 asked. "Yeah, he was different..."


Sounds to me more like she knew him before the onset of schizophrenia and doesn't really understand how it emerges in the late teens or early adulthood.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #11
61. it's documented that people with that mental illness should NOT smoke pot.
That could have led to the intensifying of his symptoms. There was a heinous murder recently in California, same deal.. the guy got worse as he hit his late teens, and even though he was told not to smoke pot, he did. And it made it worse.
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FreakinDJ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
12. Exactly how did they get 2 such opposing discriptions of the same person
Me thinks FUX News did quite a bit of "Coaching"
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. the full interview is from kgun9, fox only showed a part
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. I don't think it's odd at all...
I know that if I got five people together who know me in different capacities, they would likely all give a different description of me based on how I act with each one.

Isn't that the way it is?


A person doesn't generally act the same way with his boss as he does with his kids, for example. Or act the same with his wife as he does with his best male buddy.


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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
72. Or act the same with his wife as he does with his best male buddy.
Let's hope not or that's gonna kill the marriage.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #19
124. Huh. I act pretty much the same with all people.
Of course, that might explain some of my shortcomings.
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
21. The first one broke up with him, the second he broke up with her.
I'm just guessing.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. They both seem to imply they broke up with him.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #12
26. I don't think their descirption of him are that "opposing."
The difference comes from describing how his parents interacted or not interacted with the girlfriend, but who knows why the parents would want to interact with one girlfriend and not the other.
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ProudProgressiveNow Donating Member (263 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #26
73. One was Latina, one was not?
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Karia Donating Member (145 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:46 AM
Response to Original message
13. The girlfriend who spoke well of his parents
Actually knew them and visited their home. The other GF is basing her impressions on her recollection that Jared Loughner claimed she was not welcome at the house. Big difference IMHO.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #13
58. It's such a laughable statement from the other one, Ashley. Maybe they didnt' want her in the house
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:41 PM by Catherina
because their house was dirty that day or his parents needed rest. Sad. I can't even count how many people I wouldn't let into my house because it wasn't tidy.

15 minutes of fame.
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #58
74. If I remember correctly, his friend said it was a dark unpleasant place
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #74
81. Thank you.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 01:35 PM by Catherina
shrouded (by trees?), cold, dark, unpleasant.

Thanks. I hadn't seen that video. I'm watching it now. Very sad.

Great. Now I'm crying. I feel so sorry for his friend.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:51 AM
Response to Original message
15. Double bullshit on this...
1. So people think it's perfectly normal for a "normal" person to fake a mental illness? In order to do something heinous? That's normal? Why would a "normal" person (i.e. someone without a severe mental illness) even WANT to do something heinous in the first place? Wouldn't someone have to be a pretty sick puppy to even seriously consider doing something like killing someone?


2. This doesn't help people who suffer from illnesses (mental or not) that nobody can actually SEE. People with chronic pain are "fakers". People with anxiety disorders are "fakers". People with depression need to "cut the shit and pull themselves up by their bootstraps".

If you have an illness nobody can SEE, you're nothing but a "slacker".


Well, I'm no expert either, but I do pay attention to things...like a person's eyes.

And Jared Loughner has eyes that creep me out. There's something not right about that guy, and I honestly don't think he's "faking" anything.

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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. as others have said he lost his eyebrows
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. Sorry...I didn't see that about the eyebrows and
am unsure about the connection...

can you explain?

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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. some say its standard Arizona prisoner abuse to shave them
I don't know if it's true, but it seems he had short hair when he was arrested.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4693874#4693894
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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
63. And there was an artist's rendering of his court appearance posted
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 12:54 PM by truth2power
on DU this weekend. He was depicted with hair.

So, he had hair, then they shaved it off, then it grew back overnite?

Just sayin'. Very peculiar.


edit> typo. "he" not "her".
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #63
75. Maybe he soaked his head overnight in Rogaine?
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #63
84. It would be good to have a photo from the side
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 02:03 PM by jakeXT


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truth2power Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #84
129. That is from the side, isn't it? He clearly has hair and eyebrows.
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #29
126. I read that he had a bad case of lice, so they had to shave his hair and brows.
I don't know if that is true, but if it is, it can hardly be called "abuse."
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 05:50 AM
Response to Reply #126
127. any links?
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tblue37 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #127
130. No--I didn't read it in a news article--just in various comments.
That is why I said "If it is true." I don't know whether it is true or not. ALso, even if it isn't true, it is possible that a prison with lice problems might just shave everybody's hair to control an outbreak. (I actually have heard of such situations in prisons in the past.)

My point was simply that although shaving prisoners' heads is reminiscent of the way the Nazis shaved their prisoners' heads, and therefore immediately and viscerally horrifying, the intention might not actually be to abuse the prisoners.

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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:02 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. That was the first thing I noticed when I first saw his photo...
I have alopecia. And I thought to myself, "huh, looks like he has it too", because, even though the photo isn't of the best quality, it looks as if he doesn't have eye lashes either.

But then again, there have been accounts of people shaving their heads before doing horrible crimes. Eyebrows too? maybe.
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #15
46. Me either
I think it is a classic case of something, whatever it may be, but certainly not all together in the head at all. I personally think he dabbled a bit with that Salvia (sp) too much and was really obsessed with lucid dreaming. Makes me personally think he is caught between that dream world where he can do and be anything and reality - combined with the onslaught of mental illness. I think reality will hit him hard when he gets the help he needed. Such a shame he threw his life away and nobody around him did anything yet they talk about it now. Even worse, as he has thrown away his life, he has negatively affected many and killed and injured so many. I don't think he lives in the real world much.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:56 PM
Response to Reply #46
64. My thoughts are very similar to yours, an inability to distinguish between reality and a dream.


Sleepwalking

If I define sleepwalking then sleepwalking is the act or state of walking, eating, or performing other motor acts while asleep, of which one is unaware upon awakening.

I define sleepwalking.

Thus, sleepwalking is the act or state of walking, eating, or performing other motor acts while asleep, of which one is unaware upon awakening.

I'm a sleepwalker - who turns off the alarm clock.

All conscience dreaming at this moment is asleep.

Jared Loughner is conscience dreaming at this moment.

Thus, Jared Loughner is asleep.

- Jared Loughner.
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #64
85. His fascination with lucid dreaming
really caught me. Combine that with mental illness, and a nihilist/chaos attitude, rejection, and paranoia, it is pretty easy to see he was a walking danger to everyone around him. His paranoia was evident in how he would call his friends to ask them if they were stalking him - concerned they were out to kill him or steal his car coupled with an assumption that grammar was mind control by the government. The nihilist attitudes come from words having no meaning as if he lived in the matrix. He was into using Salvia, a known hallucinogen that I was reading up on today - very dangerous and actually legal in many states. I think he crossed over from his lucid dreaming into the real world unable to distinguish the difference. Probably doesn't even know the difference. Such a pity. I wonder how many like him walk amongst us? I never heard of lucid dreaming really until now.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Yes.
And all that on top of no job in over 6 months, 65 employment applications turned down without even an interview.

I never heard of lucid dreaming either. I know what LSD is like, did it a few times, and the last trips frightened me enough that I'll never do it again. I just read from drug users that salvia is more intense and takes you "further out", "With Salvia, EVERYTHING is a hallucination; I am in another universe, another galaxy."

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-80349.html .

The whole thing is so terribly sad. "how many like him walk amongst us" is a very good question, especially during these terrible times where people are literally having their homes stolen from them and there are no jobs.

It's nice to meet you Broderick.
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Thanks for the link
Good to meet you too. I read on some other message boards the same thing. Scary stuff. Years ago I tried acid, and it wasn't a good experience. Never again. As a business owner I see the suffering from people every day. Reduced hours, unemployed, underemployed. It breaks my heart to see elderly folks counting change to put a few drops of gas in the vehicle to get to a doctor appointment. It breaks my heart to see good people unable to keep their vehicle running to even get to a job interview. I kind of wish I lived in a bubble at times so I didn't have to see it, but that isn't the case. It is quite sad and depressing. :(
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #89
101. The suffering is enough to make you become crazy yourself
I can't take it either, seeing old people who can't even afford heat in the winter or badly needed medication; seeing young people with huge school debts and no job prospects and all the ages in between losing their homes and livelyhood Our country has gone to hell in a handbasket.

See you around on the board :hi:
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robdogbucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #85
98. I wonder how many like him walk amongst us? I never heard of lucid dreaming really until now.
Inception

It is all about lucid dreaming
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #85
113. The more I'm reading about salvia, the more horrible this is becoming
A few quotes from a druggie board in a thread called "Salvia vs LSD- Which is more intense?"


- Salvia doesnt make you hallucinate. It takes you somewhere 'mentally'. Salvia trip is almost totally undescribeable. Sometimes its evil.. Beware of Lady Salvia.

- salvia and LSD cannot be compared. Salvia doesn't make me "hallucinate", it literally takes me away. With LSD, I can see what I'm hallucinating: a chair melting, a person morphing, things swirling and taking shapes and colors and tracers. With Salvia, EVERYTHING is a hallucination; I am in another universe, another galaxy.

- You cant compare LSD with Salvia.
Salvia doesnt make you hallucinate. It takes you somewhere 'mentally'. Salvia trip is almost totally undescribeable. Sometimes its evil.. Beware of Lady Salvia.

- I've taken some pretty crazy doses of LSD before, but I still knew I was on earth (I'm talking about 10 hits of liquid dropped onto my tounge). But with the Lady, I'm in another galaxy.

- I was with a friend of mine the first time he smoked salvia and he thought he was in the fucking ocean and ran into a closet!

- I felt like sucked in a twodimensional mirror and I actually saw this evil sourceress (lady salvia?) and she smashed the mirror containing my very ego into thousond pieces/little egos and all the pieces were screaming and hallucinating at once, all kinds of voices talking and trying to connect to the other pieces but the sourceress put the pieces in a box a shaked it.

- i tried salvia for the first time a couple months ago. being experienced with high doses of shrooms and a bit of lsd, i wanted to make sure i got the desired effects. loaded one bong of 21x extract, ripped, held it in while loading another. exhaled and ripped immidiately after, before i exhaled the second time i was thrown into a mario-like dimension where i was lying on the concrete. i could feel and smell the concrete, and although there were about 5 people in the room with me, who i was completely unaware of them; instead i could still hear their conversation--it was completely distorted and translated to something foreign. i never expected anything like this, and while i didnt flip out, i did come out of it with a very pale face, and a racing heart. my initial perceptions of the trip made me conclude i had a bad trip about dying, but later on i began to realize i was in a completely distant mindscape. in any case, i tried a hefty dose of lsd a few months later, 8 hits of the white blotter thats goin around, and, while there was ego-destruction, it was nothing like the complete open-eyed transformation of reality that salvia extract provided. im positive that a higher lsd dose would yield further seperation of mind and body, but i dont see it in the same way as salvia. lsd takes me deeper and deeper within my own mind. salvia seemed to take me somewhere else....

- lsd, in the right setting, brings out all the joy in life.
salvia just freaks me out.

- Salvia: A cold, hard smack to the psyche. Death-like. Joy-less.
LSD: Ecstatic, fast, frightening, magical, colourful.

- on Salvia...it's not even a matter of time dilation, it's more like eternity spread out over an instant. On acid I've spent what seemed like a day or so as a chair, but when I remembered it it was just like, weird, how could I ever think that and it wasn't really all that long afterall. Now, on Salvia, I've spent generations (and the actual time passed like it would normally pass, memories and all) as a family of fruitflies. My first time out I was a Chinese child and I lived an entire life in a small village and ever hundred years a dragon came so we all had to go fight the dragon but at that point I was a hundred and seven years old so I could only watch the young men fight while I urged them on. I died not long after that, maybe a few years, and then my spirit wandered and watched until the trip wore off and I came to. My bong was still smoking from the hit I had taken. So, yes, absolutely, Salvia doesn't last long at all. But in your head it lasts VERY LONG periods of time, and since everything is ultimately in your head anyway, what's the difference besides having more time to do other things?

http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/archive/index.php/t-80349.html


According to this the father of friend who knew him pretty well, Jared used salvia frequently. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtHYeOtBLz8


And this sounds terrifying. If he was taking this frequently and mixing it with other drugs, oy vey. This kid was in no mental state, with no job or prospects, to be doing messing with his head like this.


Ive tried salvia once and will never do it again. I took one rip of 15x and held it in. By the time i exhaled i was sinking into a different reality. I was alone in my room but my bro was outside. The room i was in was composed of levels and the top level was the door (My escape) the reality i was in was terrible. I wasn't me i wasnt in my house and i had no idea what was going on but i knew that i had to get to the door or else i would be stuck in this awful world forever. It seemed an impossible feat to reach the door and i began to relize my fate of being stuck in this world forever. Just then my brother poked his head in the room and said something i cant remember. I felt saved by seeing a familiar face i was able to burst through the door but i could not string together words to talk to my bro. I finally remembered the world i really lived in and was happy. But then my brother smiled and it seemed very sinister to me i had the feeling that my real world was fake my entire life and my bro was a part of that horrible alternate reality that i though i was permenetly stuck in i felt that the world was going to slip away beneath me and i would be back in that incomprehensible world. It was TERRIFYING. I though i would never be able to go back to the life i knew. It was almost like dying. After the trip was over i felt like i had been in the room trying to get out for hours but it was only a minute or so. I layed down on my couch and was still dumbfounded and was having difficulty speaking. It was one of the most bizzare and horrifying expiriences of my life.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100322010102AAIfeMj
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Broderick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #113
128. oh wow
that is some more information that really tells me this stuff is extremely dangerous. It might be part of his lucid dreaming fascination, the hallucinogen itself started him down this path. Can't believe it is still legal in many states.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #15
52. Maybe she doesn't want what she might see as "an easy out."
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davidthegnome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #15
55. Whether he's "faking" or not
I could list reasons why people would - and why some do, though that is a very small number. In this guy's case - yes, I think (in my opinion) he's insane, but I don't think that insanity deserves sympathy from us in consideration of his sentencing. Were he not a murderer, I would have sympathy and even empathy as I have issues of my own. I don't think anyone (here) is claiming that people with chronic pain, anxiety disorder or depression are fakers.

There is, however, a possibility that someone guilty of such a crime may exaggerate his mental issues in order to plead insanity or garner sympathy. It's not normal to fake a mental illness - but it has been done. I once considered exaggerating my own issues when debilitating PTSD chronic depression and nearly constant panic attacks were not enough to get me health insurance. I didn't do so, but I certainly considered it - which isn't something I'm proud of, but desperate people may do desperate things.

That said, those who do exaggerate their own conditions are not necessarily doing so for wicked reasons. They often do so because they lack alternatives and are desperate for treatment and help. In this man's case, frankly his only real defense is insanity - and I believe it will be exaggerated.

There are sane people who commit murder all the time. There are sane people who for reasons of their own feel that someone deserves to die. Murder is not synonymous with mental illness. To imply such is degrading and offensive to those who suffer their illness without going on a shooting rampage or harming anyone as a result.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:32 PM
Response to Reply #55
80. Thank you.
"There are sane people who commit murder all the time. There are sane people who for reasons of their own feel that someone deserves to die. Murder is not synonymous with mental illness. To imply such is degrading and offensive to those who suffer their illness without going on a shooting rampage or harming anyone as a result."

I was beginning to wonder if anyone else felt that way or if I was completely alone in thinking the mentally ill are being degraded by these comparisons. No wonder the stigma is still there for the mentally ill. It's sad, really.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
22. Anyone who believes this guy is faking and is not really mentally ill really need to get a clue.
Those of us who have dealt with the mentally ill and are familiar with its symptoms and manifestations have more than a clue. If anyone has seen the picture of his voter registration from a couple of years ago and compares it with the most recent one and sees the obvious change in the handwriting that should give a clue. So we are to believe that he has been keeping up this charade for years?

The notion that Loughner is not mentally ill is just plain stupid. I predict the guy will never spend a day in prison but will be committed to a mental health facility where he clearly needs to be.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Do you realize that under our laws being mentally ill
does not necessarily make him legally insane?
So I'd guess your so-called "prediction" is not going to happen.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
40. A simple answer: John Hinckley, Jr.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hinckley,_Jr.

Trial

At the trial in 1982, charged with 13 offenses, Hinckley was found not guilty by reason of insanity on June 21. The defense psychiatric reports found him to be insane while the prosecution reports declared him legally sane.<7> Hinckley was confined at St. Elizabeths Hospital in Washington, D.C.<7>


So the defense psychiatrists found him to be insane and the prosecution's found him to be sane. The insanity defense is rarely used and is rarely successful. Does anyone actually believe that Loughner appears to be less insane than Hinckley?

So I don't "know" if my prediction is going to happen, but neither do you "know" that it is not. But unlike the many whose predictions I read here at DU and then you never hear from them again when they are wrong I will be happy to report back if I am mistaken. But when a person who appears to be as mentally ill as Loughner gets sent to prison for crimes committed while psychotic, then that does not bode well for the mentally ill in this country.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #40
43. John Hinckley Jr.? So?
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 11:47 AM by LisaL
Ted Kaczynski is serving a life term in prison. Plenty of mentally ill are in prison, so pardon me if I am not going to bet that Loughner will end up in a mental institution somewhere.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. I am. He will. n/t
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ironrooster Donating Member (273 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #22
33. Correct Elocs. I worked with the severely mental ill - schizophrenics -
paranoids etc., many years back, but the hallmarks of the communication/language changes that take
place after a "break" are clear to those of us with experience - they are
"consistent" in their own way. I'm
somewhat surprised that there are so many that can't see it.

It really speaks volumes about public ignorance of mental illness.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
42. For those of us who are familiar with schizophrenia, Loughner's case waves red flags.
Unfortunately hindsight is always 20/20 and in looking back we all can wonder why nothing was done earlier. It's likely that Loughner had a long decline in schizophrenia until he crossed the line and had a psychotic break.
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. speaking of public ignorance of mental illness
most people that I've talked to about it seem to be under the impression that schizophrenia is synonymous with multiple personality disorder

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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #48
116. Yep
I work with people with schizophrenia too, and this one drives me nuts. I'm sure there's a history to this confusion. And you hear it from people who should know better.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #48
121. The two have nothing to do with each other than that they are both
mental illnesses.

Multiple personality disorder is just what it says. Multiple personalities inhabiting the same body. May not actually exist, IIRC there is much debate about if it's real or fakery.

Paranoid schizophrenia is a delusional disorder with a "split" from reality (schizo = split) - the patient cannot tell what is real and what is imagined. So they hear voices that are not there, and see things that are not there, like imaginary friends or persecutors or animals or mysterious "signs and portents". These patients tend to very frightened by their delusions (paranoid - betcha you would be too) but cannot ever be convinced that they are not real. The delusions are VERY real to them, and they live their lives around them.

In my mom's case, she imagined my dad to be crazy (he was the most sane person I ever knew) and trying to kill her, and doctors and the military were in on the plot, and ufo's too. She refused all medical care and it ruined her life, and when she got hypertension and that went untreated that ruined her health. Wish we could have forced her into treatment of her mental illness - maybe she wouldn't be dying of stroke-related dementia 15 years before her time.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. Shockingly sad volumes. n/t
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. Amen to that, elocs
Those of us who have dealt with the mentally ill and are familiar with its symptoms and manifestations have more than a clue.

I'm with you all the way on that.
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #34
96. Yes. And we know that they aren't any more violent than the rest
Shame on you.
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Maine_Nurse Donating Member (688 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #96
104. Well, sort of...
The violence statistics on people suffering from schizophrenia are drawn from people who have actually been diagnosed with it. In the majority of those people, at least some treatment has been undertaken, which we hope controls the positive symptoms of the disease.

The picture of undiagnosed, untreated schizophrenia might be quite different. There is obviously no way to know since those people aren't known to have the illness even though they do have it. Can't really research that.

Given the progressive decline and the untreated delusions, hallucinations, paranoia, etc., it might seem somewhat likely that eventually some of these sufferers will decline to the point of becoming dangerous to themselves or others, even though it may not be intentional.

If someone walked up to you and pointed a gun at you, you would likely be very very afraid. Some people would strike out to try and protect themselves, others might try to hide or beg to not be shot. No matter how out of touch with reality some delusions/hallucinations seem to most of us, to the person experiencing them they are just as real as one of use being robbed at gunpoint.

Legally, the "reasonable and prudent" standard is often used. If someone pulled a gun on a person, a reasonable and prudent person would fear for their life thus be justified in using force to protect themselves. Well you can apply that standard to people with schizophrenia if you accommodate/understand that their delusion/hallucination/paranoia is just as real to them as true reality is to most people. If a person with schizophrenia actually believes that another person is using mind control rays to slowly kill them, then a reasonable and prudent person faced with that situation would be justified in using force to protect themselves.
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Enrique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:12 AM
Response to Original message
28. she doesn't know about mental illness
she herself says she was scared of him and she describes him in a way that sounds like mental illness.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
30. So let me get this straight.
Old high school friend says one thing and DU says what does he know.

Then two women who claim to be his girlfriend say something else and we're ready to believe them.

Wonder what the difference is?

Not making a legal claim, but is there any question this guy has some serious mental problems? Really?
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
32. I am astonished that the first thing out of people's mouths is "mental illness" when
something like this happens. Do some of you who think that really believe that mentally ill people just sit around plotting and planning to blow a bunch of people away like that? Really? You think THAT low of mentally ill people as a rule? Can you not acknowledge that non mentally ill people can do that sort of shooting?

Most mentally ill people spend every day suffering and trying to still function well enough so their families will not have to suffer with them. Sometimes they fail at protecting their loved ones from suffering too, but it is not because they do not care. It is because they are trying their best to deal with the suffering and still function at all. It's horrible to suffer that way. Most mentally ill people do not sit around planning to kill a bunch of people like that, nor do they do it.

Most mentally ill people are good people who don't do these kinds of things.

It is an insult to the mentally ill to look at the horrendous things Loughner did and automatically assume he was mentally ill. Guess what? Most mentally ill people are just as horrified by what he did as you are.

I think that Loughner guy is just plain a mean ass, not mentally ill. He KNEW what he was doing was wrong and he planned what he did. That is what the police say the evidence is saying so far. He was proud of himself after he did that too. He did this shit for the attention and notoriety. He isn't mentally ill. He's a murderous tool.
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HuckleB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. +1
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. actually it's not the first thing out of my mouth but the evidence of mental illness
in this case is beyond overwhelming. Literally scores of eminent psychiatrists have weighed in with a diagnosis of schizophrenia- from E. Fuller Torrey, one of the leading experts on the disease to the head of Psychiatry at Columbia.

Of course the vast majority of mentally ill people don't sit around and plot to murder people, but that doesn't mean that someone with a severe and persistent mental illness such as paranoid schizophrenia lacks the capacity to do just that.

People aren't merely assuming that Loughner is mentally ill, they're looking at the fucking masses of evidence and listening to the experts.

You are just as wrong as you could possibly get.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. I'd say an expert really should examine Loughner first before
coming up with diagnosis, don't you think?
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. Normally, I'd agree. The evidence here is so plentiful and overwhelming
that I don't have a problem with it.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #32
39. I think you are having an inappropriate emotional reaction to a non-existent perceived slight
My conclusion that Loughner is mentally ill is based on a plethora of information about his behavior before the shooting.
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. Why are you assuming that we're looking "at the horrendous things Loughner did"
To come to the conclusion that he was mentally ill? Really now, I think most of us are looking at the revelations of friends, family and people he was in contact with daily. We're looking at what he did in college, and outside of college, what he wrote on his YouTube channel. This is how we're coming to the conclusion that he is mentally ill.

Not to mention a lot of psychiatric experts are saying the same thing.

But it seems as though a lot of people on the left desperately want to score political points, even if they are mistaken.
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
60. from what a DUer posted the other day, the guy is a jerk.
He used to beat guys up at school often, usually choosing the Jewish ones. Sometimes people are just jerks. I'd like to know more about his home life, and know where he got all that money to buy the weapons. That's being investigated now, from what I understand. They're trying to figure out how an unemployed slacker got over $1,000.00 worth of gun/ammo (purchased) for all of this.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #60
66. I don't believe that story. It came out when the first hysteria was to accuse
Loughner of shooting Gifford because he was antisemitic. After that meme died people moved on to rightwinger, then teabagger and now faker.

Loughner wrote his religion down as Jewish. Bryce Tierney, his best friend, the one who got a voice message from JLL the night before the massacre said Loughner is Jewish and that he put Mein Kampf down as a favorite book to irritate his mother because his mother is Jewish.

There are too many people saying he was a nice kid in school, before college, for me to believe an anonymous post from some stranger who says his brother called him up and told him.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #60
69. I hadn't read of beatings or fights - do you have a link for that info?
as fr money that should be pretty easy - was it a cash purchase or a credit card? maybe he had it saved from when he did work or sold some belongings...he lived at home so presumably no real expenses, plus not even tuition after September

some of his ramblings had to do with not getting what he paid for at PCC - maybe he got a refund in November right before he bought the gun...lots of possibilities - shit he may have had is parents so cowed and intimidated that they gave him the money
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
86. But no job in over 6 months.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 01:56 PM by Catherina
Back in May, he wrote on a gaming message board that he was really desperate, hadn't had a job in over 6 months and had more than 65 job applications turned down without even getting an interview.

The money question is a good one.

I'd also like to know exactly why the military turned him down.

The thread in question is here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x147755

Editing to add one more message from Jared's my space page. It's one of the very last messages, written the day of the massacre:

"Goodbye friends. Please don't be mad at me. The literacy rate is below 5%. I haven't talked to one person who is literate. I want to make it out alive. The longest war in the history of the United States. Goodbye. I'm saddened with the current currency and job employment. I had a bully at school. Thank you. P.S. --plead the fifth!"
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #86
118. Military officials said he admitted to regular marijuana use
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #32
77. It wasn't the *first* thing I thought of.
But I soon came to strongly suspect mental illness.

Hello, and welcome my classified leak of information that’s of the United States Military to the student body and you. Firstly, I want you to understand this from the start. Did you know grammar is double blind, listener? Secondly, if you want to understand the start of revelatory thoughts then listen to this video. I’ll look at you mother fuckin Anarchists who have a problem with them illegal illiterate pigs. :-D If you’re a citizen in the United States as of now, then your constitution is the United States. You’re a citizen in the United States as of now. Thus, your constitution is the United States. Laugh. I’ll let you in on their little cruel joke that’s genocidal. They’re argument is appeal to force on their jurisdiction with lack of proof of evidence. Each subject is in question for the location! The police don’t quite get paid correctly with them dirty front runners under section 10? Their country’s alliances are able to make illegal trades under section 10. Eh! I’m a Nihilist, not someone who put who put trust in god! What is section 10 you ask? If you make a purchase then it’s illegal under section 10 and amendment 1 of the United States constitution. You make a purchase. Therefore, it’s illegal under section 10 and amendment 1 of the United States constitution. We need a drum roll for those front runners in the election; those illegal teachers, pigs, and politicians of yours are under illegal authority of their constitution. Those dirty pigs think they know the damn year. Thirdly, tell them mother fuckers to count from 0 to whenever they feel a threat to stop their count. We can all hope they add new numbers and letters to their count down. Did you run out of breath around the trillions, listener? Well, B.C.E is yet to start for Ad to begin! What does this mean for a citizen in any country? Those illegal military personal are able to sign into a country that they can’t find with an impossible date! How did you trust your child with them fraud teachers and front runners, listener? Did you now know that the teachers, pigs, and front runners are treasonous! You shouldn’t jump to conclusion with your education plan. The constitution as of now, which is in use by the current power pigs, aren’t able to protect the bill of rights! Do you now have enough information to know the two wars are illegal! What is your date of time, listener? Fourthly, those applications that are with background checks break the United States constitution! What’s your riot name? I’ll catch you! Top secret: Why don’t people control the money system? Their Current Currency(1/1) / Your new infinite currency (1/~infinte) This is a selcte information of revoluntary thoughts! Section 10 – Powers prohibited of States No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it’s inspection Laws: and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay. Each subject is unlocatible!
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Cetacea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #77
100. I'm guessing methidrine.
I would not be surprised if the guy was using amphetamines.

http://www.drugtext.org/library/books/recreationaldrugs/amphetamines.htm
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #100
106. More much more. He did an entire destructive array
Near the end, he was doing a ton of salvia which, in my opinion, made it even harder for him to distinguish where his dreams ended and reality began.

He mentioned salvia on the net and also posted as Heroin and XTC on one of those shoot-em-all-up gaming forum. The administrator has forwarded his posts to the authorities. They were apparently very disturbing.

You're probably right about doing amphetamines too.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #77
122. Word salad. I could show you some of the 10 lb of letters my mom wrote to me over the years on
bits and scraps of paper that remind me of this. Unfortunately, it got to be too much and I threw them all out some time ago. Too painful to read through them.

Word effin' salad.
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
92. Mean people...
are usually mentally ill.

Or there's something functionally wrong with their brains.


People do not murder because they're "mean".

Even people who merely call others names...or cut in front of others in lines, or steal baby Jesus from the Christmas display or shoplift a pair of jeans...even those people have something not right in their thinking.

People who murder are not "mean". They're very very sick individuals. Either from psychological illness or some functional brain disturbance.



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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #92
108. Some people are just evil and knowingly cruel. Think of the Russian mafia
for instance that traffics young girls into sexual slavery and kills for pennies. In Guatemala, you can get a gang member to kill someone for you for $10.

:shrug: Just my thoughts.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #32
102. +1,000,000,000,000,000,000
:applause:
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RagAss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
115. Amen
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RobinA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #32
117. My First Thought
was "right winger." Then I read his Facebook stuff and I thought "schizophrenia." No one is saying all mentally ill people sit around plotting mayhem. Everything you read about this guy has schizophrenia written all over it. Especially if you work with schizophrenia and are used to the thought patterns that CAN occur. Nothing at all says "mean." I have worked with schizophrenics who killed people, they generally aren't "mean" at all.
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Jamastiene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Everything but an official diagnosis.
I would say a note found in his home, that said "Die, Bitch," with other notes that said, "Giffords" "My assassination", sounds pretty mean to me.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #119
123. Schizophrenics can act very mean when driven by their disordered thoughts to do so.
Just ask my sister about how mean my mom was to her before she finally hit 60 and started to fade into less crazy.

I'd have you ask my dad about how mean she was to him when he was dying of cancer but he's been gone 30 years now.

And yet, she was a good mother and wife most of the time I was growing up, and her friends loved her and couldn't imagine what went wrong when she became so crazy.
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coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #32
120. With all due respect, the 'police' are no more qualified to assess
Loughner's mental health (or lack thereof) than you or I. Right now, we are all arguing from our own sets of personal biases and experiences.

So here goes. As someone with a blood family member (brother) diagnosed as bi-polar, the descriptions of Loughner's mental state sounded exactly like my brother during his descent into severe mental illness. I can't say that Loughner is 'insane' in either the medical or legal senses of the term, just that the descriptions I've read match exactly my experiences with my brother.

No, my brother never engaged in mass murder. But he did come after me with a knife during one of his manic episodes. And I was his brother.
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
50. The comments in the youtube link are an excellent example of the civility we lack.
Attacks on the young woman.
Attacks on her appearance.
Sexually suggestive comments about her.

Don't look for civility to make a quick and sudden comeback.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:16 PM
Response to Original message
51. Well, it is true you don't need to be crazy to be evil.
Dunno about him faking it, sounds like he is really sick in the head.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #51
109. And vice versa, just because you're sick doesn't mean you're evil.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 06:10 PM by Catherina
or have a propensity for evil. No more than the rest of the population.

I agree with you that he sounds really disturbed. From everything I've read he exacerbated his condition with drugs, isolation, hard-core shoot-em-up online gaming- all of this while not taking medication, being under treatment or even just having supportive friends to talk to.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Yes, thought about editing my post to add that part.
Edited on Thu Jan-13-11 06:07 PM by Rex
Thanks. :hi:

Crazy and evil are not always bedfellows nor is the fact of shooting someone with a gun evidence of mental illness or necessarily a evil act. Of course what he did is both imo.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. You put it well. All people are the same. Some are violent, some aren't
it's not the mental fragility that predisposes you. :hi: Thanks for all your posts.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
56. 30 years ago, the same accusation was made about Hinckley
And Chapman.

People just trying to get their 15 minutes. Pretty disgusting.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. +1 n/t
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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
68. Do schizophrenics have a predilection for shooting only Democrats?
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #68
78. No. John Hinckley, Jr, schizophrenic, shot a Republican President. -1 n/t
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #68
79. Roll was a Republican, the girl liked Obama, the rest I don't know
"He was a staunch Republican," said Paul Charlton, former U.S. Attorney for Arizona, "very conservative, though he didn't let it show."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109john-roll-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html#ixzz1AwQFwRuw
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CLANG Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #68
82. BINGO!
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #68
131. At least two of the people who died in the Tucson mass shooting were Republicans
Did you listen to the President's speech at the memorial service? He went out of his way to mention that one of the women who died was a Republican, and I'm quite sure that Judge Roll was one as well.
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Vehl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
76. I would not be surprised
I would not be surprised if the claims of his Gf's turn out to be true

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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 06:29 PM
Response to Original message
112. Ex-Girlfriend Recalls Loughner as 'Normal'
TUCSON—He was the shy, sweet boy who once bought her a box of Belgian chocolates, loved the Beatles and practiced clarinet with her in his parents' living room. And when 15-year-old Kelsey Hawkes asked him to be her boyfriend, Jared Loughner's face lit up with happiness and surprise. "I was going to ask you!" he exclaimed.

...

Ms. Hawkes, now a 21-year-old student at the University of Arizona in Tucson, spoke about her memories of her first boyfriend.

College classmates and instructors feared the young man and have described behavior that worried them. And some neighbors of the Loughners have described a reclusive family, with occasional outbursts from Mr. Loughner's father.

"That's not the person I knew, and there were no signs he would become this person," said Ms. Hawkes, a petite young woman with large bluish-green eyes and straight blond hair. She said she couldn't believe it when her sister called to tell her that the boy she dated for 10 months in high school was the suspected shooter in Saturday's attack.
...

read more

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703583404576080122008486168.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-13-11 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #112
114. Thank you for posting this one. I fully believe her

but I don't think she quite understands how devastating a broken heart can be. It's not her fault and she shouldn't be blamed but a broken heart can break someone's entire life.



"I liked his personality," Ms. Hawkes said. "He was nice, attentive. He was never rude. He had no interest in drugs or alcohol. He was respectful. He would give me compliments and never ignore me."

...

Mr. Loughner's father was quiet, Ms. Hawkes said, but not distant. He spent most of his time restoring old cars, she said. "His dad was always there," she said. "He'd get these old cars and fix them up really nice."

Mr. Loughner's mother worked and would offer the pair snacks and check in on them when she got home, Ms. Hawkes said. "She didn't hover. I guess she did the normal amount of checking," Ms. Hawkes said.

If Mr. Loughner had complaints about his parents, she never heard them. "He admired his mom," she said. "She was really sweet and thoughtful."

The Loughner house was neat and comfortable, with framed family pictures all around, she recalled.

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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-14-11 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #112
125. OF COURSE there was a time when he was normal. Schizophrenia isn't congenital.
People develop schizophrenia typically in their teens or early 20's. Rarely, they become ill with it in later decades. My mom wasn't overtly psychotic until she was in her late 30's, almost 40, which is unusual but not unheard of.
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