Santorum: Europe has better income mobility from poor to middle-class than the U.S.

Interesting admission.

Maybe Europe is doing something right and these clowns should look to Europe for inspiration instead of doubling-down on their laissez-faire bullshit?

The college education of their brightest? A fair taxation, rather than the regressive piece of shit tax code we have inflicted on us.

No huge need to fight unending, unwinnable wars?

:hi:

I certainly wouldn't go to Santorum for the straight dope on European social issues anyway. Quite a few Western Europeans I've know have argued that things are much more stratified there, as exemplified by the gymnasia, etc. I tend to think that their systems are better in some ways, but I find it difficult to argue that there is any more mobility there than here.

even those that may not necessarily make it to universities often gain effective career and technical skills. Germany is an interesting example, where corporations actively work with vocational schools (as well as colleges and universities) in providing hands on, on the job training, while studying. Of course some companies and universities here do that too, but there it's a much more concerted effort, bringing together the government, private sector companies, and educational institutions.

I've worked with several European interns and am usually impressed with how much applicable skills they have coming out of their respective program. Germany also has an active industrial policy, where their central government seeks to make it a priority that they as a nation produce and export quality goods. We have no such coherent agenda or vision. I personally don't agree with the earlier tracking and I like our educational system in some ways, which allows for considerably greater flexibility and forgiveness for late bloomers. I get the impression that it's more difficult to simply get into a university there, but for those that do, it doesn't cost them thousands of euros.

For those that may not find unemployment, they have a safety net preventing such absurd calamities as bankruptcies due to medical bills (something pretty much unheard of in any other industrialized country).

All of this combines to make a more economically mobile society between generations. And as we've seen from studies in other European nations (the eeeevil northern European socialist ones), they're happy. They may not have as much stuff (or maybe it's not as big), but they enjoy all the benefits of a modern and civilized nation - clean air, water, access to electricity, good schools and education for their children, and health care. Yes, they have all this, yet they're creative, start up companies, and innovate. Their safety net hasn't killed their incentive like most conservatives claim it will. It ultimately helps not being burdened by tons of debt, whether it's for student loans, medical bills, or outrageous sized McMansions.

by "gymnasia" or whatever that was -- which always seemed to me like some kind of creepy state communist social engineering. Just because you get "job skills" doesn't mean you like being relegated to that class. Also -- they sometimes do it arbitrarily -- my friend in Sweden was tracked out of college just because of his family status.

it would have been terrible and I certainly wouldn't advocate that system here. I flunked out of college initially, went to a community college, and eventually obtained a bachelors degree in engineering. I likely couldn't have done that in any other country. I would have been marked as a failure.

And as I said in my post, I like many aspects of our system of higher education. The problem is often the preparation prior to it and I believe that applicable job skills should be stressed more as well. I also think that having an adequate safety net actually allows for more creativity and entrepreneurship. Here, all to often, people are stuck at jobs they hate for health insurance.

tack on endless wars to that list. :grr:

are they not on their fifth republic by now? Europeans also have religion out of politics for the most part too after centuries of death and destruction because of religion...and it all started when Charlemagne was name HRE by the Pope Leo III.

Harmony Blue

Wel, the Pape Crowning CHarlemange really messed up politic in Europe for many centuries, as kings and the pope was fighting for supremecy in every matter of powerplay.. And it ended first when the Papel State was disvolved, and merged into Italy in the 1870s... But Christinaity, and the secular government have had a lot of things togheter, the church and the more secular powers, was using eatch other as best as they could, long before Charlemange was made Emperor in the Western parts of the former Roman empire. And Charlemange itself, never really used the title Emperor, as it still, by 800 was a roman emperor in Constantinople who was clearly anyed by the fact that the West desided to crown their own emperor.. And it is important to point out here, that Charlemange itself, was in awe and respect of the old traditions, and culture in the eastern part of the roman empire (the bysantine empire) and used a lot of ressourses to assure the eastern empire, that the western parts of the old empire never was trying to impose their will and to try to outgo the old Empire in East. And after a lot of reasuring, the old empire of the east, understood that the West was not trying to challinging the old order of things..

And it is also to point out, even tho Charlemanges Empire was able to conquier large parts of both the old western Empire, he was also able to qonquer large parts of "germanica" north for the old limits of the old Roman Empire, and even tho Charlemange, and the Shurch worked togheter to rebuild christinaity inside old parts of the roman empire - and also to build new shurches, monstaries, and other organizations who was able to make Europe a christian continent.. Also with a lot of violence as parts of the old Germanica was not to found about getting to know a new religion..

But the idea of a roman empire, was never died, even tho the old roman empire, the western roman empire expired when the last emperor, Romolus Remus a children of age 14 was desposed in a "peacefull" coup, by the barbarian kings, and repleased by a smaller, poorer and less traditional kindom of Italy, when the then shiftains, desided they could rule Italy for themsels, and not be the nr 2 after emperors who had no power at all.. By the way, the young Romulus Remus was retired to a farm, where he, and his familiy wa taken care of, and even tho the boy-emperor was going into the history, more as a fotenote than as an emperor in it selfs, most hostoriens belive he lived to a old age, and died sorouned by his family, wife, children, grandchildren and so one.. He was also seen as a writer in its own right, even tho no one of his paper survived the 400-500s.. Another history, who are more doubtfull, is that he, and his whole family was killed by the powers in Italy, becouse they was afraid he COULD be a opposition to the new kings of Italy.. So I dont know myself, what happened to Romulus Remus..

Somehow I doubt Charlemange was in the dark about crowning him to the Roman Emperor in the West. Somehow I belive, from what I know about the affair, that Charlemange was absolutely in the know, that the Pope wanted to crown him as a roman emperor, to protect the papal interst in italy, and abroad against other kings and powers, who was trying its best to squees the papal powers.. The roman bishop, the Pope was the head of state of a powerfull organization who had been and should been the only organization, who for many, many centuries should be the only place where education, and the knowlegde about antiquitqy should survive. Even in the dark ages of the dark ages, the roman chatolic church managed to keep the flame of knowlegde alive in the west. Even if the light was dim, and it was just flickering here and there in the darkness.. By 800, the church, and the secular power had been verry mutch in agreement that both was better off working togheter than figthing.. And Charlemange used the roman Chatolic Curch for what it was worth in his own secular government.. Even tho again, the limits between a secular government and the church was not as clear as it is today. Mostly becouse religion was everything in Europe by 800.. THe whole idea of a divide between secular government, and the church would have been posperius by most europeans of 800.. As it also was long up to the 1500s in most of Europe..

Today, we do have a divide between church, and politics in Europe - mostly becouse of the experience we do have, when religion, and church mix in a unholy alliance.. And even tho most europeans, are not that religios, as in US, we do have deep roots when it came to christianity in Europe.. Both the culture, and the language is more or less collored by more than 1000 year of christinaity...

The french have been messing around with a few republics from 1793 thats true.. Mostly becouse of disagreement about constitution and the rights of citizen and the government.. They managed to get it right, in the 5 try I guess... Even tho the role of the President is far more important than in any of the other constitution they was able to put togheter...

Not everyone have the smart government that US had in 1776 you know.. Even tho Im pretty sure that the "founding fathers" of 1776 would have tvisted in their graves, had they know what becouse of what the US had became of today

Diclotican

From Economic Policy Institute

I thought he was killed. Do you have a link to a source that says he was not killed?

JDPriestly

Yes I meant Romulus Augustus. Who by the way by the late 400 was the title of the Emperor, in both west and east..

Some says he and most of his familiy was killed, some sourses tell he was left to leave out his life, as a old man who was suprising, as the 400s was rather chaotic in Europe... I don't have links to sources as this time, it was something I read in a book a long time ago..

Diclotican

JDPriestly

Thats why we are living you know;). To learn, to know new things that we dosen't know before

Diclotican

Nobody knows exactly what happened to him.

RZM

Thats true, he, and most of his familiy just disapear from history.. But taken into the account, the movement of people and the destruction who was in the darkest times in the dark ages, it is not suprising that a former roman emperor just disapear from history, in the turbulent who was the western roman empire late in the 400s.. It was a chaotic world, where many things was lost, never to be seen again.. Or discovered 1800 year later, when it was discoverd by slump for the most part..

But it could be a dam good idea for a book on the subject... We are living in times, where we look back into distant past, and where a lot of writers is typing a lot of good, or bad books on the subject..

Diclotican

LAGC

Problerly becouse in most of europe, we do have a wellfare system, even in the poorest country, that most americans would kill to get their hand on, if they was not so afraid of "sozialism" all the time..

Diclotican

It is easier to get from a smaller fraction of the population into a bigger fraction than the other way around even if all transitions
happen entirely randomly.

Fool Count

It is never easy to be poor, that be in Europe or in the US.. But at least we do have some sort of wellfare net in Europe - some european country have a big net, others have not that a big net, but we do have it all.. And most european county are also smaller than the US. In my native country, we are little over 4.7 million inhabitates, in a LARGE country... (if we twist out all the fjords and wringles, the coast had going from north pole all the way down to Italy, on the same level as Rome..

Diclotican

though I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to be right about something again...

Never a reasonable word came out of Rick Santorum's piehole.

Why is he a presidential candidate?

now and then. This may be the first thing ol' Man-on-Dog has ever been right about.

I wonder if reasonable taxes, strong unions and single-payer health care have anything to do with this little fact? Hmmm?

and have worker representation
and have socialized Medicine