If I saw a child being raped in the shower....

The first thing I would do is intervene, violently if needed to rescue the child from the perp.

The second thing I would do is immediately call the police.

I can't fathom the number of enablers to the Penn State child crimes and their silence over the years. How could these people, from Joe on down - sleep at night?!

investigation while he did not. And the PA law requires people at the top of the org to call the police -- not a low level witness.

Man, PA sucks.

You see anyone getting raped up the ass (or anywhere else), regardless of the age of the victim (in this case, a ten-year old), you know what your responsibility is. You stop the rape. If you can't physically overpower the rapist, you call for help the very minute you see the crime being committed.

The only reason you need to call your boss is if your boss is an on-duty cop.

A 28-year old man is too much of a coward to at least scream at at the man to STOP! Instead he runs home "visibly upset" and tells his father? who then tells him to go tell the coach? My reaction would have been more like Robin Williams in The World According to Garp.

Pedophiles know what will happen to them if they're caught and will likely try to silence any adult that catches them and threatens to expose them.

Sneak up behind the fucker with the hardest, heaviest thing you can swing, and put all your muscle into it.

or even loudly saying--"I'm calling the cops!" would interrupt such a rape.

This brand of pedophile is probably as much into their powerful position of employment as they are into criminally exploiting that position for sex.

I understand Sandusky stands well over 6 ft, and could be intimidating, but how far would you have to run before a naked pedophile with santorum all over him would stop following you? Probably not too far.

Does the guy come after you? Do you fight him? Do you escape? Does the yell bring people that would help him catch you? At this point, you can't trust the staff, either, which may have some kind of weird loyalty to him, the team, the university, and/or who may be protecting themselves and their families.

If you yell then run, what is protecting the child? What happens to the child? What hold does the pedophile have on the child? Given a few minutes to wait for police response, can the man clean up the mess? Can he keep the child quiet, as he has been doing for weeks, months, or possibly years? Or does the child, and the evidence, vanish? Are you going to be believed over the much-beloved public figure you are accusing?

Damned if I know, but if you're going to take action because a child is being actively molested, you can't leave that child alone with it's predator once the predator knows it's been discovered.

and/or prevent you from calling the police, which of course, you do.

In this particular case the grad assistant was everybit as big and muscular as the pedophile. He probably wouldn't be as at risk as those of us who are decidedly smaller.

The old saying "it's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog", and the pedophile would have a hell of a fight in him.

The fact that the child in question (Victim #2) has still not yet materialized is deeply disturbing, when we think on this point.

...but you're right. Not a good sign.

After he's seen by the janitors. He's back in the parking lot at 10pm, then later at midnight, then again at 2-3 in the morning, driving alone, cruising the parking lot of the Lasch building. Why? What is he doing? The boy was no longer with him.

Very chilling stuff.

Two completely unknown and unaccounted for Victims in the Grand Jury Presentment.

You see a rape in progress.

You get to a phone.

You call the police.

Tell them you just witnessed a rape in progress.

Cops don't like rapists. They'll treat it as a priority call.

If the rapist gets pissed off and decides to chase you, he won't be able to do it with his **** still in his victim, so you've already helped the victim before the cops even arrive.

because the rapist has already seen me as I investigated the sounds of flesh slapping flesh.

Pull cell phone from holster and place in left hand. Pull knife from pocket and unfold it in right hand. Call 911.

If he threatens to kill the kid unless I hang up, calmly tell him "It would be an act of mercy for him.. and then I could legally kill you to prevent you from fleeing."

Im curiuos when people like to tell us how herioc they would be in a situation if they have been in anything even remotely close to judge themselves by.

What is your history with stuff like this?

Almost 20 years in education, sadly - I have filed (as a mandatory reporter) many child abuse reports.

If I was in any other profession, I would have immediately called CPS/police anyway!!!

Have I had to physically beat the shit out of a pedophile who was actively raping a child? No, but as a relatively fit 200lb man - I'd wager I would at least try! First to get the child outta there, secondly if there was any resistance from the rapist - yep, I'd do anything I could to disable the perp!

There are many ways to be "heroic" --- minus physically stepping in --- anybody could have shouted at Sandusky then immediately called both the police and campus security. Me, I would not leave the room without saving the kid first!

What about you Township, what would you have done if you walked in on Sandusky raping a 10 year old?

He doesn't have to file reports, but he did what he "has" to do in his job which is tell his superior.

Now you can claim you would have intervened or at least shouted at a perp...I can believe the latter for sure, and maybe the former. My guess is that you were trained, and McQuery was not.

My guess is also if you were working in an enormously large, successful, famed, lucrative establishment where you saw one of its pillars committing an awful act, you woudl be so shocked you might freeze, wonder if you were really seeing it, and if it were headed by someone larger than life and the institution itself (Joe Pat.) you would want to refer to them before bringing attention to the instution that could send it crumbling down....and when that happened, the danger that woudl come to you and your family...there are hundreds of thousands of rabid fans in that area that are going to blame you, not Sandusky. There are millions of institution fans nation wide...how are they going to react to all of that.

I dont know how I would react, and I haven't been in that situation. I don't have training in that stuff, so if I actually saw it, I bet my jaw would hit the floor first. It's very easy for me to think that if I were at some place like a gym and some nobody was doing that to a child it would be easy for me to jump in. In that case it is myself, some nobody and a child. When the stakes are larger, and semi-Gods are involved, could I? I have big internet muscles and could write that I would, but I have to say, I can understand why McQuery panicked and left.

It would not matter where I worked, if I saw a child being brutally raped, the LAST thing on my mind would be the "institution"!

McQuery is a rape enabler and coward! No excuse - ever - for panicking and walking out the door. At the very least, he could have called the police. You do not need "training" to know right from wrong in this situation!

But I wouldn't just take your word for it. Take any psych 101 course and you will cover plenty of experiments that show lots of people, maybe a majority, will go against their own values or even what they know is true (e.g. looking at 3 straight lines of a chart and saying which one is the longest) under peer pressure or due to authority. Maybe you are different...who knows, but I don't take anyone's word for it about how heroic they would be situations like this.

when I was 14 I heard a woman screaming in a steamed up "rockin'" car that was parked in a side alley. I was walking home from a local church dance 10 pm at night. You could walk home after dark in those days. This was b4 cell phones (yeah, I'm *that* old)

I rapped on the window....screamed at the guy. I was holding a rock. Red faced he told me to back away, it was family business. I busted out his window and ran like hell. I had to run to three different houses before anyone would open the door so I could call the police. I was positive many could see throught their window at what was happening and chose to close their curtains tight against the onslaught. I swore then and then I'd never grow up to be like that.

So people do chose, and those who chose to let a child be raped, without intervening in anyway, are pretty darned low. Isn't there a law that actually requires one to contact the PD if they see child abuse...especially one that is so clear cut as this?

how they will react. And even then, it's not heroism but adrenaline that seems to decide if you walk to or away from that danger.

and you're right, until you've been in a similar situation it's hard to know how you would react.
We all hope that we'd do the right thing but self-preservation is a strong instinct.

However, those who don't act immediately have a second chance to do something once the adrenaline wears off.

to take action.

I know because I'm older than dirt that I move to it and not away but that just means I'm lucky not to have been shot or beat up yet. I wonder if that wiring is genetic because my grandmother and mom are the same way.

Even the genetic thing. :) Still, I didn't know any of that until I faced the first situation.

touching my sister's breast, and did the same some years later to a a guy who was literally tearing the hair out of a woman's head..

I never felt I was in danger then - but I was stupid aggressive, too.

There is something that enrages me about bullies who prey on those who cannot defend themselves.

I feel kind of like "Try that on me, motherfucker..."

Maybe just the adrenalin you are talking about.

And, not to put too fine a point on it - that kind of immediate violence was in my family and neighborhood when I was a kid.

That bravado left me bleeding on the pavement a couple of times, too.

As with all things human, YMMV.

while others were standing there watching. I yelled at him to stop hitting his dog. He was embarrassed and started screaming at me, calling me a 'bitch'. No one did anything - they just stood there and stared. I also helped an old lady who fell under a bus. Again, the crowd of people just stood there until I ran to help her, then others came to help. I have also have stopped my car dead in the middle of the road, blocking traffic and pissing off a few drivers when I saw an old lady walking on the sidewalk fall into the street. She was from the nearby nursing home. Other people then started to stop and I ran to the nursing home to get help while others stayed with her. I KNOW I would have done something, and I don't give a fuck if the guy beat me senseless. There is no doubt in my mind that I would have helped that kid. You don't wait until the next day to report a rape. You pull the sick fuck off of the kid or at the very least, yell, 'Hey, what are you doing???!!!' Cowards, all of them. Pathetic fucking cowards. If anyone has any doubt about what they'd do in this situation, then you have some real soul searching to do.

Wish mankind was different, but.......... you've given clear examples of real life.

my anectodal experience is that people dont, especially younger people.

Most people learn about famous psych experiments that show how far ordinary people will go against their own values due to peer pressure, authority, etc. It's easy to say I'm not one, but if that is the case, how do all these experiments get their results.

Am I that different?

Wasn't it last month that a 2 year old in China was hit by a car and lay in teh street while everyone just passed by?

Won't know until I am in the situation, and hopefully I wont be.

people than you are aware.

I've had a hard time wrapping my head around how someone could NOT intervene...been trying to think of every plausible explanation to excuse his choice to walk away in that moment.

I've definitely put myself in danger, confronting a guy driving rebel-flag and violent bumpersticker-laden vehicle with visible shotguns on behalf of a dog.

Had a similar encounter on behalf of a child many years ago, in my youth.

In each instance I had ZERO thought process. It was instinct...really like a lioness...to intervene and rescue the vulnerable one being harmed. There was no time for me to think about consequences; I simply acted. That may not be the wisest approach, but it was my pure instinct.

I assumed it was others' as well but as we're seeing, not so much.

Not judging others, as there are probably times when my approach may not be the wisest for all concerned. Just surprised that we humans are so different about something I feel is basic.

:(

OneGrassRoot you said: It was instinct...really like a lioness...to intervene and rescue the vulnerable one being harmed. There was no time for me to think about consequences; I simply acted. That may not be the wisest approach, but it was my pure instinct.

I'm assuming I would react in the exact same way; on instinct - to protect the vulnerable.

I can't imagine a different reaction.

Thanks for sharing. :hi:

When I was a skinny 16 year old practicing my new driving skills on a country road I saw a big drunk man beating a chained Beagle. I stopped the car, went into his yard told him if he touched the dog one more time I'd hurt him. I then unchained the dog put it in my car and drove off. Had that dog for a long time and he was so happy to be loved.

Newspaper clippings, police blotters and history books record reality a bit differently.

I've been highly amused by all the Keyboard Rambos the past few days - the Macho He-Men who would have first calmly and gently wrapped the boy in a towel and soothed him before sending him to another room to spare his feelings, and then beat Sandusky to a bloody pulp with their bare hands. Or should I say 'hand', because while they're pulverizing him with one hand, the other will be dialing 911. And once he'd been beaten senseless, they'd stand on his crumpled body while waiting for the police to arrive.



Never mind that history (and countless studies) incontrovertibly prove that this scenario is pretty unlikely. Our manly and righteous men here are different, don't you know?

doesn't mean others would not step up.

Grow up.

I'm so sorry - maybe this is more your style?

having been a 6 year veteran of TX CPS as a caseworker, individuals step up to protect children from anuse far more often than you appear to be aware of.

psychology research. Much, much differently.

My 14-yr old sister broke a glass across the back of his head to get him off of her, and I pointed a loaded gun at his head when he stormed into the bedroom after us. And yes, the safety was off with a finger on the trigger.

Yeah, I think I know how to react in life-or-death situations.

I grabbed a knife and backed him into a corner with it so my mom could get away.

And it's my guess that people here who say they would have done something to stop the crime would have.

And yes, I have been in a rougher situation than that and didn't have the slightest hesitation. It was an automatic reaction. It doesn't take even the slightest amount of thought.

I might not be able to fight off the pervert but I would scream like hell and run to call the police! And no I don't have to have experienced that situation to know what I would do. Why does one have to have a "history with stuff like this" to know what the right thing to do is??

wouldn't do is to be truly obtuse. In this instance, it's just doing the right thing. He was a 10 year old boy, and I will stand by the fact that I believe 99.9% of the people on this board would have helped the child. Again, that's not heroics, or being a "keyboard warrior", it's just doing the right thing.

Ask any 911 com officer. They'll tell you all about the stupidest 911 calls they've ever received.

They'll also, if prompted, tell you how seriously they take a report of a rape in progress. And it won't matter to them if the caller is a hero, a coward, or somewhere in between.

I have to say I think it's possible to see that happening and convince yourself you didn't see it.

I think it would be the first instinct of many people, if they saw someone they respected to the core doing that. Recoiling and retreating, and then thinking about it very hard for 10 minutes. "The kid wasn't crying or struggling, and maybe he was actually closer to 15? Or 16? And the perp wasn't, you know, beating him up or anything?" People rationalize all sorts of things; I can think of many scenarios where a person can convince himself he didn't see what he actually did see.

As we see time and again, through studies and experience, people are actually very likely to do nothing when faced with a shocking, terrible event.

his fucking job. It had nothing to do with fuckin shock.

If there was no struggling, no crying, no saying "no," if the 10-year-old looked older, I can see someone recoiling in horror and instantly beginning to rationalize what he saw. We see that all the time in rape and assault cases. Human brains work in terrible ways, sometimes, and we can do a frighteningly efficient job at changing our minds.

This doesn't mean I'm disappointed in his actions, or don't hold him culpable. I just don't find it very surprising.

This was a 28 yr old man, not some kid. I can't believe what I'm reading on here about him being in shock. I hope the asshole doesn't have any kids of his own. Because, god forbid he see's one of his son's being raped he runs to his daddy first.

That IS how it happens to people who can't process what they're seeing. However, after the shock wears off there is a choice to be made. McQueary apparently reported it to his father and to Paterno and the latter downplayed it even though it wasn't the first time Sandusky was linked to child sexual abuse. There's a whole lot of failure to act here.

eta: I can't fathom working for PSU after that though.

Wouldn't that have been even more shocking? I believe that, particularly given that he appears to be a big, strong man (and much younger than the alleged assailant) he would have immediately pulled the alleged abuser off of the child and probably wouldn't have stopped there.

That's what casts doubt to me on the inability-to-process-shock hypothesis in this scenario.

The conformity studies are also of questionable relevance, because there was no authority currently in that situation TELLING him to take a harmful action against an innocent other person. The authority in this instance was engaging in wrongdoing.

and walk away. I just can't. Has nothing to do with "heroics" just common decency. I wonder how this guy would have reacted if it was his son or daughter? No excuses, he's a disgrace, more concerned with his job security than anything else.

Here's the sad part. If you saw a rape occurring in a prison shower and then told the guards . . .

1) The authorities wouldn't do anything

2) You would be stabbed

I can't fathom this on the outside. But unfortunately I can fathom keeping your mouth shut in prison, where hundreds of thousands of rapes occur every year.

and call the fuzz or the coroner.

I can't think of any. First you scream, "Leave the child alone!" Then you pick up a blunt object. He's probably a total coward; he picks on the helpless, so he will be scared of you. Then you grab the kid and stand between him and the perp. If the creep doesn't leave, you tell the child to run to someplace safe. The kid does not need to see a bloody brawl. And of course you dial 911 regardless.

Now, there were eyewitnesses in the Penn State case. NONE of them could even yell out a "Hey! What's going on there?"???! That might've been all that was needed to stop the rape.

A story is circulating where Sandusky may have been farming out young boys to rich clients. These rich clients may have given those millions to the U and so the hush was put upon the whole rotten mess. Lots of people knew but they also knew if they squealed they would be toast.

Money always trumps anything else. Vile world.

First you call the cops - to make sure tha alarm goes out even if you get your ass kicked (or worse) by the perp. Then you can try to break it up knowing backup is coming.

No excuses.

In fact, they already have.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=2286416&mesg_id=2286416

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x9821579 <-- this one twice!!

It is extremely difficult to put ourselves in hypothetical situations. We don't know if we would be so shocked that we would panic or if we would react in a helpful way. That isn't to excuse the person who saw this and reacted in a way too little too late way. But I think it is honest. We can't be sure we would do the "right" thing in the same situation.

Because I can't even be sure of having any reaction other than shock and disbelief.

Like....OMG...is that really happening????. Did I really just see what I thought I saw???

If the person in question were a well-known and otherwise respected individual, I might be so shocked that my mind would go into denial. No. I did NOT just see what I thought I saw. It's too horrible and unbelievable.

This is how my mind has reacted in other situations that were not even on the same plane of disgustingness as this Sandusky thing is.

As time went on, it would be easier to believe that my eyes had been lying to me.

looking for a land line. There'd be enough time and distance to start thinking maybe you didn't see what you thought you saw.

and hearing a 10yr old kid in the shower with an old man with something not really worth worrying about.

"...graduate assistant entered the locker room doors, he was surprised to find the lights and showers on. He then heard rhythmic, slapping sounds. He believed the sounds to be those of sexual activity. As the graduate assistant put the sneakers in his locker, he looked into the shower. He saw a naked boy, Victim 2, whose age he estimated to be ten years old, with his hands up against the wall, being subjected to anal intercourse by a naked Sandusky. The graduate assistant was shocked but noticed that both Victim 2 and Sandusky saw him. The graduate assistant left immediately, distraught."

Far too many people making excuses for this guy, who turned his back on a crime in progress, turned his back on a victim.

Surprising range of reactions on this thread, but DU does not walk in lockstep (like the wingnuts do).

From my perspective, there is no moral dilemma. I know what I would do, or try to do. So do you.

It's just too damn bad someone with our priorities did not hold that lowlife Sandusky accountable years ago.

Think of how that child must have felt when his one hope of rescue walked away.

I could not help but intervene physically if I saw any sort of abuse going on. If I saw what you described I would do my best to knock the assailant unconscious and escape with victim to get the cops.

Julie

and didn't stop it and didn't call the po-po, is morally reprehensible.

On a totally more positive note, a newly created org, "Proud to be a Penn Stater," just had a founder on MSNBC. The org is not affiliated with Penn and was started approximately 24 hours ago to raise money for the victims. They've already collected over $124K with a goal of $557K--557K being the number of Penn students!

The young man appearing on MSNBC News Nation stated several times that the purpose of the org is to turn the attention to the victims. He spoke of the heinousness of the crimes and the cover up, with the victims being lost in the sensationalism.

Anyone who wants to can make a DU thread; I can't cuz it's too tedious for me on the smartphone. Link to the site below.

http://www.proudtobeapennstater.com/

I wouldn't consider myself strong enough to fight this person, and that wouldn't have to be just females.

No point is served if I just get beat up by the perpetrator.

Some things are so egregious that no normal person would dither about this type of response. The people who say: "You don't know how you'd react" in the same situation are pretty sick, in my estimation. There was no gray area at all.

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one evening when I was in college, some friends of mine and I were walking back to my dorm from making a beer run. We had to walk by a parking area right off campus where college shuttle buses loaded and unloaded in front of an independent fastfood place.

I glanced over and saw this huge guy (as in overweight and tall) beating the hell out of a slender guy in the parking lot. The slender guy was on his knees and the big guy was actualy kicking him in the face with his boots. Both of them looked like locals, not college students.

To my dismay, a large group of obvious college students were just standing there watching the big guy kick the other guy in the face. There was even a shuttle sitting idle with the driving watching.

When I saw what has happening, I set the 12-pack I was carrying on the ground and immediately ran over to the fight. I held my open hands out to demonstrate I wasn't threatening the big guy and remember just saying over and over, "Stop it, man, you're going to kill him!" I was hoping maybe that would resonate with the big guy's self interest, I guess. I became dimly aware that two college girls had run up to either side behind me and were also telling him to stop.

Whether it was my appeal or the sight of people coming at him, the big guy stopped kicking the other guy and started walking away, yelling obscenities back at him. The girls helped the slender guy up off the parking lot (he was bleeding profusely from his head and looked completely dazed) and helped him sit on the bumper of a car as I stormed over to the driver of the shuttle.

I snapped at him something like: "Would you mind calling the police?" He nonchalantly said he already had.

With that, I went back to my friends (who were surprised by my action), picked up the 12-pack, and headed on to the dorm.

I'm not bragging and God knows I've had other times where I didn't speak up when I thought I should have. But remembering that night gives me hope that if I saw something as like this shower horror scene, I'd do something to intervene.

At least I hope I would.

Who knows, you may have saved the slender guy's life.

I have no doubt that if you walked into the shower and witnessed a child being raped, you would have done all you could to save him - including confronting the perp.

...and use the perp's head for a baseball. Then I'd call the cops and tell them I stopped a child rape in progress.

violent enough to stop the sick fuck!

He should have called security and told them there is a fight going on, and have the security guard also witness this crime. Now with 2 guys the creep for sure would have shriveled up. Literally. And the real sad part is he IS going to run. Why wouldn't he at this point. He has NOTHING to lose.

Evidence suggests those who worship others would not intervene.

That's just people. You may not want to accept it, but it's the ugly truth about people.

He would have wound up in the ER with multiple cuts ,contusions, abrasions and broken bones... if he was lucky and caught me on a good day. On a bad day...well. :grr:

If you have any sort of ability, and don't use it, you're a coward.

Myself, I'd set my phone video to record on my way in. I only need a few seconds of footage. Nice thing is, Paul, my attorney would have something to use post-prosecution of him to acquit me of...whatever charges I might garner due to my reaction. Good Samaritan and all that I'd be.

I was required to sign a document stating that I understood that if
I suspected a kid of being abused, I was required to report it to
child protective services. I reported 5 times and each time the
process went like this:

First, I was in denial, I didn't want to hear what I had just heard,
I would shake my head inside, take the information in again, note
my stress level going through the roof, shut down the information,
let it in again, go through this process over and over for several minutes
then call protective services. Once on the phone with protective
services I would have to go through intense questionning by the person
on the phone who would question every perception, memory, thought that
had made me think this child was being abused. It's like I had to convince
them of what I'd heard/seen. Then, they would do their job.

Each time I did this it felt like I lost a year from my life it was so
stressful. But, I had this little kid or teenager sitting in front of
me and I had no choice.