Question for porn fans:

Suppose you had an adult daughter, and one day she came up to you and said, "Dad, I want to be a porn star." Would you be happy about it?

...they lock this one down.

:popcorn:

.

threads haven't been. It's an excellent question.

Oh, and I am grabbing my popcorn along with you while waiting for the responses seeing as I am not a porn fan at all, I can only observe.

It's an intriguing question, and relevant

I welcome this discussion

and, given I stated the same, the OP thread wouldn't be locked, I am not sure why you directed your response to me, not that it matters, I was just curious.

That's just where I was at the time

the logically adept are angry it was asked.

However, the question was asked, and responses were solicited. Smart individuals would be able to respond to such a clear question. I would! In fact, I'm going to respond to it:

If I were a FATHER or a mother, I'd ask my child what I did, in my raising her, that caused her to have such low self-esteem, and need to degrade herself so totally, that she would wish to degrade herself by taking on an inhumanizing, humiliating job rather than an upstanding one. I would tell her that I wish to know, so that I could apologize for the horrendous job I have done of raising her to serve as a serf among the lower, lowly educated, emotionally-distraught levels of society, and I would ask her what I could do to make up for fucking her up in such a complete way.

That's my answer. What's your answer?

Aren't you supposed to be castigating someone for not being exactly like you right now?

And what's the purpose of calling her by that other name?

Why would you immediately assume she wanted to do porn due to some failure on your part? What would that failure have been? That you failed to mold her into a specific societal norm, regardless of her own ambitions? The truth is, some people like sex and like porn. There are roles for everyone in society, even porn stars. I would guess the most important role for each of us would be that of masters of our own destiny.

As a parent, I would feel responsible for whatever my daughter would do to damage herself or her well-being.

First off, let me be clear...I mostly agree with you. I would consider it a very poor life decision. BUT, which is where I'm playing Devil's Advocate, what if this is what your daughter truly wanted to do? What if she kinda liked the whole scene? What if her "community" was swingers and group sex and crazy shit that the rest of us can only imagine (or download). What if she could give rats ass about working in a cubicle farm for $10 an hour, pushing paperwork for someone who makes $1000 an hour? Isn't it ultimately her choice?

Full disclaimer: we have two boys, both adults. I totally admit, I'm not sure I could have dealt with girls. The double standard is real.

(1) Because it has an effect upon the self-esteem of the individual involved in it:

http://thepinkcross.org/pinkcross-articles/september-2008/suicide-deaths-us-porn-industry-1970

(2) Because porn influences the brain, just as all other media influences the brain, and in the case of porn, it does so in a highly deleterious manner:

http://lsvp.wordpress.com/2008/01/04/social-media-influence-and-the-psychology-of-persusion/

(3) Because female children and female adults are already highly sexualized, objectified, and degraded by the media and the society in general:

http://www.apa.org/pi/women/programs/girls/report.aspx

I have about 50 more reasons.

I hope someone bothers to care enough to read... and not just dismiss everything as coming from rightwingers, fundies, etc.

It is severely disturbing that so much sociological evidence is just ignored.

is degrading to women, and that includes those of us who are lib women.

It just doesn't sink in.

However, most lib guys DO get it, and that's awesome!

but I like your optimism. :)

I would be freaked if my daughter wanted to make porn films for a living. I am sure I would blow up and react badly, even though I am a very pacifistic person. But that wasn't what I wrote about. As I stated, why is it your decision? Do you OWN your daughter? I know it blows minds here on DU, the whole self-determination thing. Some of us apparently only believe in self determination as long as we can determine it for someone else.

I will reiterate, because I truly don't think you got what I was saying; as a parent, it would horrifying to me to see my daughter going into porn. But as a realist, I know I do not control any other human being. I would try to influence if it were my daughter, but ultimately it is not my decision. Post a brazillion links to a brazillon studies about self esteem, but that's not what I am talking about. The OP was about what you would do in a particular circumstance. Why do you feel you have total control over another human being? What is self determination about? We talk about a woman's self determination as a good thing as long as it only refers to pregnancy, I guess. In all other matters, it's okay if someone else decides for her.

:shrug:

I barely skimmed it, and Sarah's post here stood out so I read it.

As for controlling people, I thought it was fairly obvious the OP wasn't about whether you'd try to stop your daughter.

It seemed obvious to me that the OP was designed to get people to think... to wonder why (if they would think badly of it for their own daughter), why would they think it's bad for their own loved one, but still somehow think it's a great and wonderful and positive thing in general.

But your response still makes a valid point. Many parents enjoy watching porn when the kids are out of the house, but those beautiful fuckers are someone else's kids. How would any of us feel if it was our kid in that gang bang? It's a real point of discussion. Why is it okay to watch someone else's kid getting it? Unfortunately, Sarah didn't take it there. She was only concerned with the old canards about objectifying and humiliating. But if you actually like it and choose to do it, are you either objectified or humiliated? Just because Sarah is doesn't mean you have to be.

SELF DETERMINATION.

Sarah's response was based upon control and conformity. Big difference

And the studies which document it, which are (of course) being studiously ignored.

And that it does.

I'd also suggest that that person take some time before becoming a parent if she's so horrified by the prospect of her daughter or son having the same views as she does.

You don't like guns, you don't like public nudity. Anything else you don't like?

Definitely explains your thinking. No doubt about it.

It also shows me that you haven't the foggiest idea that porn degrades women and children, or simply don't care a rat's ass that it does.

Anyone who produces, distributes, consumes child porn should be imprisoned. Period.

And I never equated sex with porn, you did. But, porn is masturbatory material for people who don't have partners.

And your comment about porn degrading women just reinforces my opinion.

You are just a prude. Period. You guise it in feminist rhetoric, but my opinion is that if was up to you, you would probably ban porn, along with guns and public nudity.

To repeat. YOU ARE A PRUDE.

Anything else you want to ban while you're at it?

LIBS support their female sisters, and YOU simply don't care, because, frankly, your love of porn supercedes all damage that might be caused females.

And that's come through loud and clear, BELIEVE ME.

So drop the 'you're a prude' act. You've made your entrance and beliefs QUITE NICELY. No need to elaborate.

featuring a distinct lack of tolerance for others that may have a different view of porn than yourself..those aren't the actions of a liberal either..

so all those that don't share you self righteous puritanical view of porn are GOPigs? Actually, at least on this topic, you're the one who has much in common with the RW..

How does it feel riding in the car with fundies?

No difference whatsoever. Both, porn fans and GOPigs enjoy the degradation of females.

mighty liberal of you...yes indeed.

because i look at photos/videos of women in skirts, dresses, lingerie/stripping or having sex? most amerature, not even paid actors and actresses? i degrate females by looking at bare breasted adults while i play with myself? really? even if the porn is photos of my girlfriend? hell when married i had a galary of photos of my wife in lingerie, having sex with me, naked etc (it stayed with her after the divorce)... that was degrading????

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1993368502337678412#

this would be a very good video to watch/listen to. i did as i was preparing chicken for dinner tonight.

Enjoying sex or masturbation is degrading to women. Thursday night only, with the lights off. Men should not enjoy sex or looking at. women. Momma told her it was icky.

With two or more consenting gay men, degrade women? And the answer is, it doesn't. Bu that doesn't fit in your neat little world that all porn is about degrading women and children.

Nice drve-by avoidance. You know exactly what he meant, and still left the text field blank. But since you brought it up; I attended a wedding this summer. Two very dear friends I've known for years. Oh, did I mention that they are both female? And they have no problem with porn, gay, lesbian or straight. Who the hell is being objectified? I agree with the other poster. You are just a prude who wants everyone to hate the same things you hate. Because somehow you know better what is best for the rest of us. He's right on another angle...you're more GOP/authoritarian in this regard than you are progressive or liberal.

.

not $upport what degrades them.

...so that it fits conveniently into your own perfect little world view.

It's a big world out there. Not everybody likes missionary sex on Thursday date night with the lights off.

How could you even THINK it doesn't? That's what amazes the hell out of me.

He'll, I can get a parrot to repeat stuff...still doesn't mean she knows what she's talking about.

When you acknowledge that not only is the regular media degrading to women, but that porn is that same degradation carried to its extreme, then I will stop repeating it.

The one that said "Porn is good for everybody."

Clearly, porn isn't good for you. So don't watch it. And if you don't like gluten, don't eat it. And if you don't like ponies, don't ride them. But please don't tell me what I am supposed to like just because you are a prude.

What are you trying to convince me of? Because you sure as hell are trying to convince me of something. I sure hope you're not trying to convince me that porn does not degrade women.

As opposed to lesbian porn, which only exploits straight mens' wallets.

I'm not familiar with any. I await anxiously to find out where such exists, so I can see if it's as degrading to women as is porn for males.

Otherwise, you're too ignorant about the subject to even be discussing it.

Stated earlier...close friends are a lesbian couple. They like porn. I guess they only like gay men and lipstick lesbians, because Ms. Prude doesn't understand anything outside her cloistered vantage point.

And it's degrading to women.

and basic everything on your pre-conceived notions.

Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.

The overwhelming majority of porn is degrading to females. Nearly all media is degrading to women, an extreme form of media, degrading women in an even more extreme fashion.

Amazing stuff. I'm genuinely sorry you live in such a narrow, scary, male-hating world. I hope you get better.

some porn has women saying degrading shit, that is a turn off for me personally, but how is a video of a man and a woman having sex, or a soft porn film with a plot so mixed non sex and sex scenes, or amerature porn made by swingers, degrading? both men and women participate in porn, both genders are naked, dominated, commanding, etc. according to taste, both wear outfits "for having sex",

you do realize that there are many men and women who engage in casual sex because it is fun dont you? why do you think there are night clubs? so people can hook up, women and men love doing that kind of thing.

i dont see the degradation, some porn degrades men and women, other porn no.

porn is just sex on film

general degreadtion of the female image by promoting airbrushed, faked beauty is independent of porn, it is a macro aspect of society unfortunately.

or anything of that nature.

This discussion is about how porn degrades women, and women are already degraded by the media and society in general.

One of the 10 scenes in the film begins with a woman and man having a picnic in a park. He jokes about wanting to use the romantic moment to make love to her mouth, and then stands and thrusts into her mouth while she sits on the blanket. Two other men who walk by join in. Saying things such as “Pump that face, pump that fucking face,” “All the way down, choke, choke,” and “That’s real face fucking,” they hold her head and push harder. One man grabs her hair and pulls her head into his penis in what his friend calls “the jackhammer.” At this point she is grimacing and seems in pain. She then lies on the ground, and the men approach her from behind. “Eat that whole fucking dick. … You little whore, you like getting hurt,” one says, as her face is covered with saliva. “Do you like getting your face fucked?” one asks. She can’t answer. “Open your mouth if you like it,” he says, and she opens her mouth. After they all ejaculate into her mouth, the semen flows out onto her body. After the final ejaculation, she reaches quickly for the wine glass, takes a large drink, and looks up at her boyfriend, and says, “God, I love you baby.” Her smile fades to a pained look of shame and despair.

*

I am not suggesting that in every scene in mainstream pornography such expressions of pain are evident. And I acknowledge that I cannot know exactly what the women in these films were feeling, physically or emotionally. I do not presume to speak for them, or for women in pornography, or for women in general. But her is what Belladonna, one of the women who appeared in “Two in the Seat #3,” told a television interviewer about such scenes: “You have to really prepare physically and mentally for it. I mean, I go through a process from the night before. I stop eating at 5:00. I do, you know, like two enemas. The next morning I don’t eat anything. It’s so draining on your body.” Women’s experiences no doubt vary, but Belladonna’s experience hardly seems idiosyncratic.

*

This analysis is not news to the industry. As Jerome Tanner put it during a pornography directors’ roundtable discussion featured in Adult Video News, “People just want it harder, harder, and harder, because like Ron said, what are you gonna do next?” Another director, Jules Jordan, was blunt about his task: “ne of the things about today’s porn and the extreme market, the gonzo market, so many fans want to see so much more extreme stuff that I’m always trying to figure out ways to do something different. But it seems everybody wants to see a girl doing a d.p. now or a gangbang. For certain girls, that’s great, and I like to see that for certain people, but a lot of fans are becoming a lot more demanding about wanting to see the more extreme stuff. It’s definitely brought porn somewhere, but I don’t know where it’s headed from there.”

*

We live in a culture in which rape and battery continue at epidemic levels. And in this culture, men are masturbating to orgasm in front of television and computer screens that present them sex with increasing levels of callousness and cruelty toward women. And no one seems to be terribly concerned about this. Right-wing opponents of pornography offer a moralistic critique that cannot help us find solutions, because typically they endorse male dominance, albeit not these manifestations of it. Some segments of the feminist movement, particularly the high-theory crowd in academic life, want us to believe that the growing acceptance of pornography is a sign of expanding sexual equality and freedom. Meanwhile, feminist critics of pornography have been marginalized in political and intellectual arenas. And all the while, the pornographers are trudging off to the bank with bags of money.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/~rjensen/freelance/pornography&cruelty.htm

most porn is male female

there is plenty of male male too

along with the female female

porn can fuck up sexuality and expectations of sex for people but people also like to watch it and play with themselves or have sex and watch it

harm reduction should be the goal, how to reduce the harms of the industry but accept that there is such a demand that the market should exist.

who have authored what has been classified as "porn" at one time or another.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_authors_of_erotic_works

Second, 'porn' objectifies human beings, and removes all emotion, leaving only people-as-genitals.

Third, in porn for males, the females are objectified and sexualized. This is an extreme of what ordinary media already does to females.

Fourth, porn is wank-off material.

Fifth, porn, when used in excess, creates an obsession whereby people can become aroused only by the extremes shown in the porn. My bf explained that eventually, males whose sexuality consists of a relationship with porn, live quite flaccid lives in real life because their bodies and minds have grown accustomed only to the extremes provided by porn, and are out of touch with sex in reality. Their mind requires ever more extreme forms of porn. I'm sure some porn fans attempt to re-create their porn fantasies in real life, but this never really pans out.

Sixth, porn is a falsehood, but being media, it influences the user, whether the user wants to be influenced by it or not.

i would have had to have thought long about it. not a self esteem thing, an independence thing, 5 years of a shit job then freedom.....

Or at the very least, I'm trying not to judge you or your hypothetical fitness as a parent or as a moral human being, and I imagine this propensity for labeling or shaming "the other" seems reasonable given the life experiences (or possibly the lack thereof in some respects) which inspired this demeanor, but personalizing the subject only heightens the human impact of assigning people to reductive generalizations (e.g., "emotionally-distraught", which almost sounds like praise on this thread) and highlights a seeming disrespect for women or their collective ability to make choices that conflict with a chosen orthodoxy's beliefs re: the proper "upstanding" role of women in society (or people in general, although the "degradation" of gay actors (or male offspring) doesn't appear to warrant concern in this discussion.)



Since it's personal: someone I care about deeply made "porn" once, and I'm extremely proud of her; she's an Ivy League-trained scientist, artist, pioneer, and dare I say feminist, and her research is about to be published in a journal re: the stigmatization of sexual minorities by otherwise well-meaning family members and friends. She wrote, directed and starred in the aforementioned film, and while this sort of thing does tend to follow you around in the Age of Google, I can't say I've ever met a person with higher self-esteem or emotional fortitude or utter brilliance for that matter (but YMMV of course, and I understand Linda Lovelace is a poster child for the dark side of videotaped sex inasmuch as Sandusky represents the folly of football.)

Without delving into the implication that belonging to the untouchable "lowly" caste automatically merits contempt, as though you might deliver this speech to hapless dance or theatre majors unfortunate enough to anticipate your empathy, I think that a) your assumptions could be better described as broad-brush stereotypes than careful observations about the risk/reward of exhibitionism against the backdrop of an unjust, market-driven, still patriarchal society, b) this lecture resembles the worst case scenarios some of my GLBT friends have experienced with only minor alterations (although you didn't specify whether your daughter would be subsequently "dead to you"), including similar themes such as an assumption of emotional damage (and parenthetically, justifiable hang-ups about sexual freedom from an epidemiological perspective, and the idea of sexual abuse as the only rational explanation for behavior considered deviant) and the inevitable "where did I go wrong?" ... I suspect that you're completely sincere, so I don't mean to denigrate your effort to mitigate social inequality and repression as you see it, but I don't understand how you can assign ridicule ("fuck<ed> up in such a complete way") to the very people you consider victims in this exchange.

That's why it was 2 hours, and over 100 posts later that the original poster deigned to once again grace us with her wit and logical acumen. And yet, I still only see that poster's name on two posts (the original and one reply). Pretty much the pitch-perfect example of a drive-by post.

the thread has pretty well gone the way I expected. I know I rec'd it but to no avail.

they fall completely apart when anyone disagrees with them on porn.

I do not get it. Either someone is a toughie, or they're not.

But thank god *you're* here to save us from ourselves...

:eyes:

Gimmie a break

Lovely.

Gotta stamp out that sin, by god!

are busy trying to take their own lives, and degrading their future and present.

Being a Crab Fisherman is by far a more dangerous job.

And there is nothing degrading about sex. It is you who is saying that.

she will be a full witch when her grandmother passes, and i have a photo of her topless (on the beach) but she knows i look at it and play with myself..... no bullshit.... she was flattered when i told her what i did when i looked at her and saw her in her tiny bikini bottom.

IN fact I think it's a damn good question

And yes, if my daughter was happy, I would be happy

Period

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Feminists do not think women are shrinking violets in need of protection from that evil sex thing....

You, Sarah, are a Right Winger. Your boyfriend is a right winger, you are authoritarian in your views.

Seriously, wouldn't you feel more at home on the PTL forum?

(VARIED means not just the 'sex positive' :eyes: ones)

I would LOVE to hear the results!

:rofl:

Sorry, you can't have your cake and eat it too

You are either for freedom and women's rights, or you are for authoritarianism and against civil rights

Like I asked earlier, when did you go fundie?

degradation. that is the issue. the people you are arguing with are arguing those issues. and for you to define it as you are, you are saying women are not allowed to discuss these issues... per the very cool.... you.

many people have told you, you failed on this argument. and you ignore even those on your side as if it is a winning argument. it. is. not.

regardless how cool you think you are.

Does masturbation kill kittens too?

Seriously, you just parrot the Fundie BS, not at all thinking about it logically

You lose

As per your thread title, I could bake a pizza and call it a muffin, but that does not make it a muffin

You can call sex-negativism feminism, but that does not make it so

foolish. just get, you think you have a win with this, and you dont. it is fail, we see this style argument so often, but mostly repugs. no one buys it.

some porn objectifies one gender more than another, but there is born of submissive men in which they are degraded, made to lick bottom of shoes and worse etc.

porn also changes the expectations of sex for the consumers of it like tv changes our expectations of reality

this issues need to be the point of a public education campaign for startes

but i fail to see how porn degrades women more than it degrades men. sex is not a degrading thing, sex for money may be but in this case the people having sex are all being payed and not by the person they are having sex with.

i do not believe the couple men running around the forums bragging about being so cool and insulting those that disagree with them, have watched or read one issue put forth.

i dont get what the bragging is about, but that they purposely remain ignorant on a subject. my boys would not get away with not being informed and commence in argument, without knowledge or fact. yet, these guys brag, about their ignorance and lack of ability is discussing an issue. merely shouting down and calling names and declaring a win by saying, i am a ....

feminist.

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I was wonderiing when someone would bring up the Repig boyfriend.

never any photos of women or men? never?

I would say this one would actually stay.

If she's not comfortable with it, she's not ready to be a porn star.

incest is not my fancy. i will watch other mens daughters while other men watched mine were she to become a porn star,

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:popcorn:

Hehe. Seriously, the last time I got into one of these porn threads the DU policy seemed to be "no porn threads." Obviously I was wrong. Now excuse me, it's almost time for the money shot.

:popcorn:

there are too many amateurs giving it away for free for her to make a decent living. She enjoys the material things of life so that should be enough to deter her.

I can't say I'm amazed, however. I figured DU would have a few right wing individuals who hold to that same everything-goes-as-long-as-it-makes-$ thinking.

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Imagine your college age daughter, in a room full of college age boys, suggesting they go rent porn.

Would you be shocked?

Happens more than you think.....

I'm old.

is 14 to 16. so watching porn at 20, no big deal, maybe she would like it? hell who knows if she will be lesbien or straight, who knows if she will like porn, in college the kid is an adult and they can run their lives as the see fit. i will advise at that point but accept that they are adult an can run their lives as they see fit.

Hell, whatever she does - my question is was she safe....

Condoms are your friend

Use them

...than one's daughter vigorously masturbating to porn.

Although I've heard of that too.

I also don't know that I'm a porn fan. I've seen my share of it. I've seen a lot of movies with Anne Hathaway too, although I'm not really a fan.

:)

:rofl:

If my daughter (if I had one) were to masturbate in front of a group of men or anyone who is not her partner, her husband, or her wife, I would:

(1) Beg her forgiveness for having FAILED MISERABLY as a parent, hero, guide, example, that I somehow DID NOT imbue her with self-respect; dignity, pride, and love for herself;
(2) I would ask to tell me exactly the areas in which I failed so miserably as a parent, so I at least would know how I fucked up her mind so totally and be aware of how I missed the train there somehow;
(3) I would ask her how to make up for my failure, so that she could begin developing some self-esteem, self-respect, and pride.

That's my response to the question you asked.

I'd imagine a young boy or girl becoming extremely emotionally scarred by such a response. I know you're, in a way, trying to put the blame on yourself, but an 18 year old wouldn't see it that way. At the very least, I'd imagine your theoretical child would want nothing to do with you after that. And with good reason.

....but this again, goes along with your misconception that porn is "ONLY for masturbation" that you stated in another thread last night. All I stated was that it was a girl who suggested renting porn in front of a bunch of boys.

The porn was to be procured and watched in a group of mixed company to goof on, as well as to fulfill the curiosity that 18 year olds have when they are away from home for the first time and have never had the freedom to access porn (as I said to someone else this was the 90's before the Net made porn free to everyone....but I imagine the same is done today in some way or form). It's a passive way of engaging in sexual behavior with others of the opposite sex, without physical contact being made to each other OR SELF.....plus the clandestine excitement of going to a "porn store" to obtain it.

I'm really not surprised you didn't get it. It's amazing to actually see how one's mind works when you get going as to what you assumed was going to happen or did happen.

and wait for her answer. if she said she was already an exhibitionist and going to such clubs with her friends or boy/girlfriend and she thought she may as well get paid to do something she likes for a few years and save up the money i wouldnt really care

if she said she did it to get money for crack and heroin i would tell her that i would give her dope money and talk and talk and talk to her over as many months or years until perhaps i help her see that she needed to stop the drugs.

really, i would buy her heroin if she was doing porn for heroin and try to convince her to "choose life" of her own free will.

and I find myself glad on behalf of the fictional child that you're apparently celibate.

hell, not for me, but my daughters future boyfriends or girlfriends will love watching her vigorusly masturbate, as i enjoyed watching her mother and my current girlfriend who both also watched me do the same

i want my daughter to have a fun fullfilling sex life once she is old enough to handle it.

...but some people here seem to think porn only is used for masturbation, when I'm pointing out there are slightly more innocent situations it gets used in.

it is also used by people having sex

A bunch of college-aged guys don't invite a girl to a room because they expect her to have tea and crumpets with them. They're thinking gang-bang.

For her own safety, she shouldn't even show up in the first place. The question is moot.

Must be. You know men.

Christ.

and seeing as i wouldnt have said no to several woman wanting to have sex with me back in college, when i could stay hard for 5 orgasms with no downtime, i really couldnt tell my adult daughter anything but "be safe, condoms, safe sex, you dont want herpes aids or a baby,"

imagine that a man or a woman could have a fantasy to be with more than one member of the opposite or same sex (whatever they are into)at the same time! hell i talk about this one with my girlfriend who has the same fantasy to have two men but is nervous to act on it, so we dont do it but i told her if she wanted to pick up some guy one night we could try it but that i would want to pick up another woman one night. she didnt get angry at all.

she is very confident sexually speaking. i would want my daughter to grow up to be confident in general, and sexually speaking too.

because somewhere along the line, as my daughter would not do that in a billion years, somewhere along the line she got abducted and was forced a brain transplant to become another person.

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I was responding to this:

''''Imagine your college age daughter, in a room full of college age boys, suggesting they go rent porn.

Would you be shocked?''''

but in case you did'nt make an error and intended to tell me how my daughter feels about men pornography or the general pigness of some men, go to fucking hell. you know shit, so eat some.

hell in college i was asking the girls (not in words all the time) to have sex with me.... rent porn? in the dorms??? (download some) but really just go at it. use condoms, safe sex and birth control and enjoy being young. that is what i will tell my daughter to do. sex for recreation when you are discovering what it is you like etc. and how it interacts with relationships etc.

Would not be happy if she married some guy I did not like and then got an abortion either, but those are her choices and not mine.

I am pro-abortion

If you can't take care of the kid, don't have one

There are OPTIONS

of helping her come out unscathed?

to find out I had an adult daughter all this time I didn't know anything about.

Just like I don't care who she marries, I don't care what she does

That's HER life

HER body

HER decision

HERSELF!

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I understand accepting that it's her life. I sure as hell don't understand the "I don't care."

There's a huge difference.

Just, WOW. That seems so cold.

Granted, it doesn't make every person happy. Chances are, it won't. But chances are, it will pay well.

Work on an oil rig, or a coal mine, and there is much more risk, much less pay and much more danger.

I would rather have porn over coal mining, thank you.

I don't buy your Judeo-Christian-Calvinist mindset.

about what you think you know about me. (Calvinist? LOL!!!!)

Recognizing that a child of yours, adult or otherwise, has the right and free will to make a choice, doesn't preclude caring about the potential consequences of that choice.

Hopefully I will have given her the information needed to make a reasonable choice

But I do not *own* her

She is her own

And if that is what she wants to do, I will stand by her

Now, take back the "Judeao-Christian Calvinist mindset" BS. That ain't me.

It pays well if you are one of the extreme few who become "stars"... pretty much like professional sports. The odds of that happening to the average women that goes into porn is just about nil. For the rank and file - even the somewhat known ones - the pay is shit. Once in the business you can never work a legitimate job again with few exceptions. You will never be taken seriously and will forever be thought of as a hot piece of meat... until the moment you lose your looks.

The LUCKY ex-porn actresses go to die as strip club features where they bounce all over the country from club to club doing what is essentially masturbation shows since a very slim few can actually strip or dance. Every single one I've met is stuck in a rut, burned out and wants out... but can't get out. Guaranteed you'd recognize many of the names. But they can't get out because there is nowhere for them to go. Considering they're huge overhead, they likely don't make as much as a the better house dancers. Their time as a club feature is also limited considering that once they've performed at a club the club rarely wants them back again... clubs want perpetual "fresh meat" which is the whole reason they bring in the ex-porn features to begin with. Once the club has featured a specific one they don't usually want them again because their whole purpose is a club draw, and there is little club draw for "re-runs".

The truly luckiest ones really turn out to be the ones that went into it and made a little nest egg money but were not generally known since they have a decent shot at burying their sex industry past.

1) Women are higher earners than most men. Top male stars make lots of money, but there are very few. New women stars will always earn more than a new male star. Always.

2) Most men, attractive or not attractive, will never make it in porn. Most women who try out, and are attractive will get some type of work, assuming everything else falls into place. This includes everything, pictures, videos, etc.

3) Top women earners make between $1,500 - $10,000 per scene. I'm estimating on the high end, and this doesn't account for deals or profit percentages on the DVD sales, etc.

4) Aids and other illness in the Porn industry are whispered about; most producers don't want to scare away potential new starlets. There have been many deaths attributed to sexually transmitted diseases, but who's to say how many. The male Gay community still holds the high record for AIDS related deaths.

5)Some porn stars only SPECIALISE in certain areas...(like anal , or BDSM etc etc)
Think the sicker the movie, the higher paid the star!

Fiction:

1) Most females are coerced into performing. This isn't a third world country, only the tiniest number (probably less than 100) have ever been coerced into performing, and again that is just a guess, but to make a point.

2) Snuff films. 'nuff said.

3) "Boogie Nights" type marketing. The females are the big stars. John Holmes was a legend, and an ultra rarity.

just one of many indicators it is male based.

usually the guys are pretty built but may look like at one time their face caught on fire and somebody tried to put it out with a pitchfork :P

Of course the camera spends very little time on head shots, well, that head :rofl:



I think this is now officially a sex thread :)

i grabbed the first article, without much time spent. plenty on google


http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RightThroughHisPants


Fanservice most often is aimed at the straight male demographic. The assumption is that most heterosexual guys prefer seeing female flesh to seeing other naked guys. Therefore, because Most Writers Are Male, men in sex scenes will be far more covered than women, even during intercourse. The woman may be completely naked (or at least not wearing anything visible; a skintone patch or a cover between legs can be completely hidden from the camera in a way that a penis can't), but the guy will still have his shirt on — or sometimes only his fly is down. It doesn't matter that with his fly down and his belt off the guy's pants would fall down. It also ignores how painful sex with a metal zipper rubbing up against the genitals could be. All that matters is seeing that sweet, sweet fanservice with the least amount of squick. Selective Squick anyone?

According to one porn director, Right Through His Pants in pornographic works is partially intended to ensure mainstream porn is uninteresting to women. The theory is that the average straight male porn viewer desperately, desperately prefers that his partner NOT enjoy porn. Her enjoyment implies his inadequacy. The director says this is why they hire extremely ugly guys like Ron Jeremy: so guys won't feel insecure. Female nudity is great (remember, Most Writers Are Male), and if you can slip it past the censors, imply it through tight clothing, or out and out show them nude — fantastic. But lord, don't show men naked; flashing a penis is likely to blind someone and drive the viewer to suicide. (Margaret Cho has an alternative theory: " don't want a fraction of an inkling of a chance that they might actually get turned on by the guy in the movie and accidentally have a homo moment.")

Admittedly it is exceedingly rare to get a clear view of actual female genitalia, except in outright pornographic material. So during sex scenes in movies or comics, we'll get to see almost all of the woman and nothing of the man but some pecs and a groaning face — if that. Also, nipples might show through a skintight suit on a woman, but the male will rarely have a bulge, even in tights (and usually won't look like he's smuggling a gun carriage), leading to the impression that all men in fiction are Ken dolls. Which leads to another Double Standard.

*

This is most obviously shown by the trope where, even after sex — or sometimes even during sex, when it's interrupted — men will be shown wearing boxer shorts; apparently the message is that women also don't want to see a man's naked "area" — even while having sex with them. It's also done for practical reasons. Genitalia in general are too hard-core for anything less than X-rated sex-scenes (but are fine for PG-13 otherwise), and it's simply impossible to avoid seeing men's genitals while showing their "area"; meanwhile women typically wear loose lingerie to avoid showing even pubic hair.

You can find anything to justify or prove anything about anything online lol--- you should know that-

So that shoots your whole statement to hell.

to my question but 'no thanks' to the comment which doesn't apply.

I would think many parents would care.

I would think that many parents would illustrate and act on their concern for any major decisions their sons or daughters are in the processing of making or recently made-- regardless of whether its a career in porn or choosing a particular college.

But then again, I guess some parents simply don't care... :shrug:

Popcorn before the lock!

:popcorn:

Is that something to be happy about? Not necessarily. Probably not, in fact.

Is it her choice as an adult? Absolutely.

Should abortions be banned or restricted, since they are something that people might not want their adult daughters to do? No.

Seriously...

If she was an adult (adult being the magic word), I would ask what made her want to do it. But if this what was she wanted to do, how could I stop her? Also, if she was with people that were professional (i.e. no drugs, health tests, no harassment) then I could stomach it. There are some porn outfits that are sleazy, and some like Jenna Jameson's where the women are the executives and set the rules (you might be surprised that many of the stronger companies are ones run by Ladies.

Now, before you call me sexist, let me say this, I would feel much better about my daughter working for Jenna than the Koch Brothers, or many companies that frankly degrade all their employees in far worse ways than any porn industry ever would. To put it bluntly, there are many, many corporate environments that are far more degrading than ANY porn company, and worse, they screw over many people. At the risk of a bad pun, which is more degrading, being a porn star, or working for the Koch Brothers? I would rather her get paid doing whatever she wanted to do than get her mind raped most of what passes for the modern workplace.

:rofl:

If working at the phone company was degrading to HER, yes. And the fact you make this joke shows you are really ignorant of the modern work environment..then again, I am sure you could ask many here about work environment that did a lot more to you than anything involving holes.

you were bitching about that is less perferrable than working porn.

Since apparently you have trouble reading.

First, if that is what my ADULT DAUGHTER wanted to do, I would have to supprt her.
Second, there are many work environments that are much worse than any porn site, and I would have to keep that in mind.

There, feel better? Try using your brain.

Don't tell me that to you support means acceptance of everything. Is that what support means to you?

and frankly, as I have said, there are many jobs that are far, far, far more degrading and dangerous than the better managed porn outfits. As far as support goes, me undermining her AS AN ADULT is the best way to undermine her. Of course I would nag her to make sure she had thought everything thorough, and had scrutinized her employers to the letter. But, I would not want my daughter to think she had to please me, or any man, or anyone but herself. It's her damned life, not mine. Also, the line between Erotica and Porn is blurred because we in America demonize sex...If a woman wants to sleep around, it is not our business.

The GOP also claims abortions degrades women, and blames it for making women sex objects? Do you really want to feed them ammo?

Sex is BAD

Wage Slavery is GOOD

Give me your number and I'll show you :rofl:

seriously though, give me your number- I can do magic :)

jesus, the mind boggles.

I wouldn't want my daughter to be a garbageman, for instance. Or a used car salesperson. Or a waitress at a greasy spoon. Or a front line infantryman in the Marines. Or a shelf stacker at Walmart. Or a personal assistant to a Koch brother. Or a porn actor.

Not because there's anything inherently wrong with any of those jobs, but because I'd hope that my daughter would aim a bit higher in life. Still, if porn was her choice, and if she demonstrated that she understood and accepted the consequences and risks of her choice, and if she was happy with the job, then I would support her.

I must be terribly old fashioned.

:rofl:

I can imagine who.

although admittedly career length is limited. I would advise her to canvass other porn actors to ID the better producers and to make sure she never committed to anything she was unsure of and leave it at that I think.

Since she's a part time rock musician now it would probably be a healthier career too.

FWIW I am no great fan of porn. I can take it or leave it myself, but I have no problem with either participants or customers of its legal side.

..become a public school teacher.

I'm a public school teacher (retired), and I don't feel screwed--then or now.

Please explain that comment.

Just that public school teachers aren't compensated nearly as much as they should be. That was my interpretation, anyway. Thanks for educating the children!

have sex?

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There really needs to be a law mandating the use of sarcasm tags.

like wants to masturbate while watching daughter. that would be.... well, i guess anything goes.

It was S A R C A S M for fucksake. *ugh*

Actually, no, you didn't.. your leading question is a non-sequitor. Even if a bunch of us were to admit that we would not be happy with a daughter's decision to work in the adult entertainment industry, it is not an indication of that industries validity. I would not be thrilled if one of my sons decided to try to be a crab fisherman, as I would be crushed if he were to be lost to the Bering Sea, but it is still a valid career choice for some.

We need to work Olive Garden in here to finish it off ;)

You are see-through.

of course, those who lack a fundamental grasp of rudimentary logic may have problems grasping it. However, I'm ever the optimist. I'm sure they'll get it eventually. lol

at high risk.

so?????

:rofl:

Do you think that somehow proves whatever incoherent point you've been trying to make? Because I can assure you it doesn't. Maybe if I dumb it down a bit further?

Crab Fishing - High risk/High reward
Porn - High Risk/Potentially high reward
Mining - High Risk/Low reward
Pilot - High risk/High reward

All are valid career choices for those willing to accept the risks/downsides.

at high risk. we have now established this like three, four times. lol. why are you wiggin out.

I'm guessing you are the one on the left? no no, the one on the right, can't see what his hands are doing.

Much like your intellect, you vastly overestimate your wit.

Surely she has more integrity than to start a drive-by flamewar????
Hmm...

That has absolutely no bearing on porn. However, to answer, I may not be happy about her choice but she would be an adult who can make her own decisions.

Norma Bates: No! I tell you no! I won't have you bringing some young girl in for supper! By candlelight, I suppose, in the cheap, erotic fashion of young men with cheap, erotic minds!

Norman Bates: Mother, please...!

Norma Bates: And then what? After supper? Music? Whispers?

Norman Bates: Mother, she's just a stranger. She's hungry, and it's raining out!

Norma Bates: "Mother, she's just a stranger"! As if men don't desire strangers! As if... ohh, I refuse to speak of disgusting things, because they disgust me! You understand, boy? Go on, go tell her she'll not be appeasing her ugly appetite with MY food... or my son! Or do I have tell her because you don't have the guts! Huh, boy? You have the guts, boy?

Norman Bates: Shut up! Shut up!

Just all tee-hee funny now that we are in a different thread. Pathetic. :eyes:

Some people are tactile learners. I think that's you.

political garbage to throw back? Ho ho ho...don't be sad...my, my you just project all your little feelings on others now doncha? Some people keep sticking their foots in their mouths. I think that is you.

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talk about stupid... :eyes:

the degradation of women in the way women are presented throughout the media, and porn is no exception, except it's far more degrading than even ordinary media.

I do not like your choice but you are an adult and you must live with the consequences of your choice. I will still love you.

Upsetting, yes, but ultimately not my choice. The only thing one can do is urge her to pay the fuck attention to what is being asked of her. If she feels uncomfortable with a particular thing or how it is being asked to be done, she's under no obligation to do that thing. Lord knows there are plenty of options out there if that's the world she wants to get into, she doesn't have to feel stuck in a seedy situation. Female actors get paid a lot more than their male counterparts in straight porn, though that's more to do with what's asked of them. Many otherwise straight male actors go gay-for-pay because it pays more and more equally between participants (probably the same in lesbian porn). It's her body, she needs to feel comfortable with how she uses it and how others use it.

She is the priestess of her body temple, her word is law over how worship is conducted there and by whom.

:rofl:

allowed.

when you post, do you even have foggiest fucking idea who you are replying to? Because it really doesn't seem so.

:P

:toast:

The lack of punctuation and capitalization I can let slide. The utter incoherency gives me a bit of a problem, though.

I... don't know what to make of that. Brain fart like mine earlier replying to the wrong post?

Google "Bunnies with pancakes on their heads" trust me it's not porn. ;)