Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

What is OWS about?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:42 PM
Original message
What is OWS about?
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 04:43 PM by nadinbrzezinski
he access that is in contention is to PUBLIC SPACES, you know the PUBLIC SPHERE which is ESSENTIAL for Democracy... JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRACY to be specific.

That is what this is about as well.

We have lost quite a bit of ACCESS to public space.

I recommend, seriously, that you get a jacket, and go down to your encampment. Yes, a few residents can be scary... but you really need to have that discussion with actual occupiers.

If this was not seen as a threat, and it goes beyond tents and a park by the way... it is about first amendment, fourth amendment, economic justice, reestablishing Glass Steagal, Taxing the UPPER crust... and a whole revision of our economic policy. They are not doing the petition and all that because they have figured out that the system IS broken and NOT responsive. Here is a free hint. 1% are the upper crust. 24% in Congress fit that category. Don't you think that explains some of this? I mean it is NOT in their self interest.

The CAMPS are also a way to HIGHLIGHT the plight of the invisible populations among you... the homeless.

Why is it that you have ONLY heard about the fights with the cops? BECAUSE THE MEDIA and the powerful are setting up a narrative. This is as old as the country... those protestors are ANARCHISTS (Haymarket) and UN-AMERICAN. Those kids are free loaders and un-american (1960s)

Look at them do drugs! Again 1960s

Those workers are lazy scum... (History of labor, insert action here)

They want to take away your wealth and to make this a communist country (1950s)

Better dead than red... (1950s)

They are agents from Al Qaida (currently), since red baiting is not working.

So now they are compared to dirty hippies who are shiftless and use drugs, and are lazy... given the history of this country and how it reacts to REAL CHALLENGES... well this is like predictable and shit.

Here is the problem with this... if somehow this is pushed underground... we could potentially could see some real violence... and I don't mean police riots.

So be careful what you wish for.

Oh and one more thing... Dylan's song applies...

The times are indeed a' changing...

(This was posted as an answer but it is important)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
1. "Effete Intellectual Snobs" - Spiro Agnew
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. If OWS is about occupying space, then it is useless.
Surely you can think of some other things OWS is about. That is not what OWS is about. It may be what you are about, but there are larger issues in play.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. In fact, from the OP
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 04:49 PM by nadinbrzezinski
If this was not seen as a threat, and it goes beyond tents and a park by the way... it is about first amendment, fourth amendment, economic justice, reestablishing Glass Steagal, Taxing the UPPER crust... and a whole revision of our economic policy. They are not doing the petition and all that because they have figured out that the system IS broken and NOT responsive. Here is a free hint. 1% are the upper crust. 24% in Congress fit that category. Don't you think that explains some of this? I mean it is NOT in their self interest.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. There's no need to reread. I understood it on the first reading.
That's why I replied.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You missed this
If this was not seen as a threat, and it goes beyond tents and a park by the way... it is about first amendment, fourth amendment, economic justice, reestablishing Glass Steagal, Taxing the UPPER crust... and a whole revision of our economic policy. They are not doing the petition and all that because they have figured out that the system IS broken and NOT responsive. Here is a free hint. 1% are the upper crust. 24% in Congress fit that category. Don't you think that explains some of this? I mean it is NOT in their self interest.

Now I don't know about you but economic policy, glass steagal economic justice, and amendments are quite specific. Nor is the list inclusive either.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. What is "glass steagal economic justice" ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Yes, that is Glass Stegall.
Now, what is Glass Stegall economic justice? I suspect is is just a phrase you heard and liked the way it sounded but for which you don't have a definition.

I am not a Nanny. I am someone who expects those who pose as experts to be able to explain. If they can't, I won't be afraid of the "poser" word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. Deleted message
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Hangingon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:26 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. Yes, that is Glass Stegall.
Now, what is Glass Stegall economic justice? I suspect is is just a phrase you heard and liked the way it sounded but for which you don't have a definition.

I am not a Nanny. I am someone who expects those who pose as experts to be able to explain. If they can't, I won't be afraid of the "poser" word.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #2
10. I agree with you, Mineral Man
I fully support the general goal of OWS to shine a spotlight on income inequality. I think most all of us do. But it indeed seems to have become almost exclusively about the supposed "right" to camp out in parks. This was debatable when the original OWS started in Zucotti Park, because it is a privately owned "public" park. It could never have happened in Central Park or Madison Square Park or Union Square Park, because the NYC Dept. of Parks and Recreation has had long-standing rules that prohibit camping in city parks. See http://www.nycgovparks.org/sub_faqs/faq.html#rules. You can't let your dog poop anywhere, you can't drink alcohol in the parks, you can't cook except in designated barbecuing areas. It's not about free speech. That is why protesters have been allowed to come back into the park, but without their tents and cooking gear, etc. Most park districts require permits for "special events" that have more than a certain number of people, and you have to get general liability insurance (usually for $1 million). I know this because my son got married in a city park facility in Chicago more than a year ago, and there were all kinds of rules (we had to add the liability insurance to our homeowner's policy--it wasn't really that expensive, I think like $75).

The message has been completely lost, and what is more, the original organizers of OWS think this is the case, too. Yesterday I posted the article from Chicago OWS, which decided early on not to press for camping and instead to spread its influence through teach-ins, lectures, direct actions, and targeted legislative efforts. They specifically think they've been more successful by doing that than by fighting to sleep in a park and gaining negative attention. Just today in the NYT:

In New York, where the police temporarily evicted Occupy Wall Street protesters from Zuccotti Park early Tuesday, and in other cities, dozens of organizers maintained that the movement had already reshaped the public debate. They said it no longer needed to rely solely on seizing parks, demonstrating in front of the homes of billionaires or performing other acts of street theater.

They said they were already trying to broaden their influence, for instance by deepening their involvement in community groups and spearheading more of what they described as direct actions, like withdrawing money from banks, and were considering supporting like-minded political candidates.

Still, some acknowledged that the crackdowns by the authorities in New York and other cities might ultimately benefit the movement, which may have become too fixated on retaining the territorial footholds, they said.

“We poured a tremendous amount of resources into defending a park that was nearly symbolic,” said Han Shan, an Occupy Wall Street activist in New York. “I think the movement has shown it transcends geography.”

Even before the police descended on Zuccotti Park overnight, some early proponents of Occupy Wall Street had begun suggesting that it was time to move on.

On Monday, Adbusters, the Canadian anti-corporate magazine that conceived of the movement, indicated that the protesters should “declare victory” and head indoors to strategize.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/16/nyregion/occupy-wall-street-organizers-consider-value-of-camps.html?hp


As we all began to say in the late 90s: Move On. This movement is not about setting up camp. It's about changing the stranglehold of corporate influence. Bonfires and tents and drums are not going to do that. The message is out; now start doing some real work.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MedleyMisty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #10
20. Are you aware of the Oakland strike and how they shut down the port?
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 07:15 PM by MedleyMisty
Or about the strike at CSU? Or about the day of action tomorrow? Or the currently ongoing march from New York to DC?

Occupy is much much much larger than a park. If you aren't aware of that - are you getting your news about it from the mainstream media?

Also, it's not about income inequality. It's about how the people with all the money have used it to take over our government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
frazzled Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. Absolutely, and that's not the kind of activism I'm talking about
That's actually when they started to lose their own supporters. I have quite a few twenty-something Facebook "friends." An activist and very smart political young man (son of friends of mine) lives there, and I was surprised to see him post a really negative (he had been gung-ho until then) status update bemoaning some of the actions, especially the destructive stuff. "Not the way to win hearts and minds, guys," he complained. Same for a thread from Seattle, deploring the actions against branch banks, where old ladies and lowly tellers were the victims. Not the 1%.

So they shut down the Port of Oakland for five hours. That's certainly cool: people couldn't work and goods couldn't come in.

From Oakland:

Omar Benjamin, the Director of the Port of Oakland, confirmed the closing of the port at a late evening news conference.
“Maritime operations remain effectively shut down. And the port is working to ensure that all workers in the harbor area can get home safely … It is our hope that the work day can resume tomorrow and port workers will be allowed to get to their jobs without incident,” Benjamin said.
“Continued missed shifts represent economic hardship for maritime workers, truckers and their families as well as lost jobs and lost tax revenue for our region,” he added. ...

Several banks were vandalized and a dozen windows were shattered at the Wells Fargo branch, while an area Whole Foods was vandalized after rumors spread that employees that participated in the strike would be fired, according to ABC News affiliate KGO.
Conflict amongst protesters arose as some scrubbed graffiti from a branch of Wells Fargo bank and a group of protesters attempted to stop another from vandalizing a Whole Foods, KGO reported. A police spokesperson said that five businesses were vandalized throughout the day.


This just isn't well thought out. The kinds of actions I think are more effective are what the Occupy Chicago people are trying to do. For example (and this bill is being hotly discussed in Illinois--giving big businesses the tax breaks they are demanding while budgets are being cut back in every single area across the board:

... a real test of their influence will come on November 21, 2011 when SB 405 comes up for a vote. ...SB 405 cuts the taxes on electronic traders by as much as a third and would give the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) and the Chicago Board of Exchange (CBOE) an estimated $120 million dollars.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mark-cassello/occupy-chicago-scores-vic_b_1094088.html?ref=chicago


A successful campaign mounted against the passage of this bill targets exactly the right offenders--not workers and storekeepers and ordinary citizens.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. If there are larger issues, be specific...the ones enumerated
were pretty large to me. Some of the largest there can be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vcc Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
6. not everyone wants Jeffersonian democracy...
...not even everyone sympathetic to OWS.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. So we do not want what we have had for 200+ years
Actually you are onto something.

Welcome to DU by the way

:hi:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vcc Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:22 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. now i'm confused...
so.... is OWS now about keeping the same system we've had for 200+ years? cause before, people supportive of OWS were being shot down as fearful and tools of the man if they said they wanted to work within the current system and that "the whole system's gotta go". Also, while most of Jefferson's ideas have been the foundations of our government, not all of them have, and those are the ones most at issue in the current political and economic climate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:29 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. They are talking of an actual democracy
what in theory would be Jeffersonian democracy.

They get it that spaces are part of it, why they have been closed to UNIONS. STUDENTS, CITIZENS.

They want democracy... which they recognize we do not have.

But that is part of the fight... to make the government work for the people, not the top 1%.

Why they are also for getting rid of money in politics, and well, Citizens United.

That is where an IDEALIZED view of US history comes in as well as a belief that we need to protect the Constitution. In that they are pretty close to the base of tea party activists who are also constitutionalists. And yes the ARGUMENTS between both sides as to what actually means are happening.

If you are the elite who has worked hard to divide the people this is very dangerous.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
vcc Donating Member (70 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
18.  some similarities, yes, but not the crucial ones.
"If you are the elite who has worked hard to divide the people this is very dangerous."-- Not the "limited government" aspect of Jeff. Democracy-- that works out pretty darn well for the elites.

I see the Tea Party as having fundamentally opposite goals from OWS. Really, the only similarities I see are: populism, protesting, and a fight for "rights", but with very different applications. And the fact that everyone can pretty much agree that we don't like other people having gobs more money than us. On a lot of points the two groups can initially agree on the surface of things, but at some point it would become a major split.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. The elite of the tea party
the men behind the curtain.. you are completely right.

Here is where the danger lies. AMERICANS are talking to each other. No, not libertarians who hate lib'tards... Americans.

They are finding something VERY dangerous to the elite... they have far more in common than they realized.

I have heard those discussions... heck. I have participated in them. At times I want to beat head against wall, when I hear some of the koolaid. But here is the important thing and why this is so damn dangerous. They are working to REACH consensus... and people are OUTSIDE their comfort zones and talking to each other.

That alone is that powerful... and they are finding that at fundamental levels... yes the First Amendment matters, they agree with each other.

Realize Occupy Mexico City (yes there is a group down there) will have some issues that are very different. But some of this is very global now... this is about "the system" and how it has failed. It changes slightly from country to country. But people talking to each other really scares them
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. I know I would like to see the days again when I held my
head in pride that I am from the United States..it has been so bastardized that it is now unrecognizable.
If the OWS can find a way to make the changes we want to happen, I say..go for it..nothing else has worked.
I don't like contacting my representative about a problem and having a form letter in reply that doesn't even address my complaint.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fire Walk With Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
22. Net recommendation: 0 votes (Your vote: +1)
You know, William Pitt could post here that he has the cure for cancer and is giving it to the world for free, and someone would Unrec the post.

:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue May 07th 2024, 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » General Discussion Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC