Game over folks. We're done.

So the Republicans want to pass a law allowing us to default on Social Security's loans, but not China's.

Making sure the geezers eat catfood is just that fucking important to them.

And http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x315056">the post announcing this can't even get 30 votes in five hours? Have we become so helpless that we can no longer muster outrage for the most outrageous of actions?

We're done.

Obama will be "forced" to "compromise." That will save the face of the Democrats who are just as corrupt as the Republicans.

My proposal: place a one per cent Value Added Tax on every item containing any imported component. Dedicate the income to paying down the national debt. It could be called the "Save America" tax.

in the country?

First, I always get the regressive, inflationary meme. But that is just some sort of Pavlovian response. I've never heard a really rational argument to support it.

A deficit is far more regressive because it inevitably means cuts to programs that help the poor. And inflation is coming. Actually, a sales tax may slow inflation because it will slow demand for foreign produced goods until American wages and production begin to gain momentum.

There are worse things than regressive and inflationary.

And by the way, sales taxes are not that regressive. At a time when imports are overwhelming our economy, sales taxes are the only means to bring our economy back into balance.

Income taxes are not producing enough revenue to keep government services for the poor going. VAT or sales taxes on a federal level would be a way to gain tax revenue from imported items. I don't know about you, but with the exception of food, most of what is available in the stores where I shop is imported (and very cheap). So a VAT would relieve the tax burden on everyone. It would be a way to relieve the tax burden on American employment. That would mean more jobs. That's one of the reasons why Europeans have managed to keep their industry going as ours has been dismantled. Their high VAT taxes place the tax burden on the point of purchase and not just on the point of production and employment.

Sales taxes mostly affect people who consume a lot, people who spend money. If you exempt food, medications and children's clothing, as they did in Europe when I lived there, the taxes are not regressive. Maybe you have never been poor, but I assure you I have been. And when you are poor, you spend very, very little on non-food, non-medication and adult clothing.

Everyone reacts to the VAT or sales tax with the accusation that it is repressive and inflationary. But I have not met anyone who can answer my arguments in favor it. A VAT is the only way that you can move the tax burden from the American employer and the American employee and place it on the imports.

We should raise them instead of instituting a new sales tax.

in taxes from incomes.

The problem is not that taxes are too low. The problem is our trade deficit. The problem is free trade.

I'm sure that no other country in the world does that.
That's not even free trade, it is protectionism in reverse.

Not sure how you think a VAT will raise enough money if raising income taxes won't.

(which probably would violate trade agreements). If a product is produced in China, tax will be paid on it.

Now, if a product is produced in China, only state tax is charged on it. The federal government gets nothing. That discriminates against products produced in America with labor paid American wages.

(which probably would violate trade agreements). If a product is produced in China, tax will be paid on it.

Now, if a product is produced in China, only state tax is charged on it. The federal government gets nothing. That discriminates against products produced in America with labor paid American wages. And, as fewer and fewer Americans can get jobs, there are fewer and fewer incomes to tax, those who are working at jobs in America bear the burden of paying for everything. Perhaps jobs in America would be more plentiful if we required products made in China to help pay our country's expenses.

second, last i heard, you don't get sales tax back when you're 65.

You don't get that back when you turn 65 either.

is when everyone has the same attitude you seem to have adopted. The war is only over when everyone on one side gives up fighting and I for one will die fighting.

No, here is the future for us geezers....

:thumbsdown:

No offense intended.

And people here complain about the lack of compassion in RWers. :crazy:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Okay. I can rec that observation, again. Does it surprise me? No way. So, what should we do about it? Write our Congressman?

Haven't we been down this road before, and where did it get us?

here.

he'll work to stop "privatizing or eliminating Social Security" - but not slashing it.

We *are* well and truly fucked.

from 6% to 4%, I could see the 'set up to fail.' The writing is on the wall...obama doesn't care about people who need SS monthly income.

Makes me sick. He's going to steal all the money we've put into SS over our lifetimes.

If Wall Street can't have it, no one will get it, except the Chinese.

....that it is a "more accurate calculation of CPI".


You see, these are ones who are telling us that not only has there been "no inflation" for the last 2 years, but that the calculations that say there is "no inflation" are too generous.


They say that the CPI needs to measure, not apples to apples, but that whenever you adjust your standard of living downward, for example substituting hot dogs for ribeye, that "hot dogs are the new ribeye". In other words, if everything goes up 1005, and you substitute hot dogs (which rise from $2/lb to $4/lb, for ribeyes, which you can't afford because they rise from $5/lb to $10/lb, you may THINK that because everything rose 100% that their has been 100% inflation, but under "chained CPI", your going from $5/lb ribeye to $4/lb hot dogs means there has been 20% DEFLATION.


The enemies of Social Security are raising the specter of privatization not so much because they think they will get it, but so that when they bring out the long knives to slash SS "without cuts" by re-defining inflation (and other accounting tricks) that this will be falsely framed as "saving Social Security".






:hi:




:kick:

We know there is a game afoot. Subterfuge. Look over here while we do our damage over there. Obama is the central player here. But it is clear that every single media outlet tells us that social security is now in the red. This while we have a military presence all over the world.

into our food now just for the taste. And who knows what is in the sausage?

So that they can borrow any more from it.

I've read this sentiment on DU.

Just sayin'.

SEVERAL OPs about this proposal. I HOPE it doesn't get any traction and I hope if it DOES get traction, Obama will veto it. And I HOPE that every Dem and hanger on in Creation calls the Republicans on this. Damn, that's a lot of "hopes". But it's not like it hasn't been discussed.

Or even this...



No, not me wishing this... but it is kind of a law of history, that our leaders USED to understand...

Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable. John F. Kennedy...

It is just a matter of time... no, not next week, perhaps not next year... but it will come. And it will not be pleasant either.

When you take it all away....there is Nothing to Lose.....then suddenly, change.

There is no way that what the wealthy are doing to the middle class and the poor in American can continue. It isn't going to happen. The Tea Baggers are sort of like the last attempt to get a fair deal for the middle class. Once the Tea Baggers realize how the changes they have been persuaded to ask for do not really improve anything, they will become silent or start asking for very different things.

As for us, we have realized that it takes money to organize and lead toward rational solutions for the nation's problems. And because we are not rich, no one, not even Obama, listens to us.

We have no choice but to wait and hope that crazy folks around us do not resort to violence. I think that most of us who are well educated, know history and know what is coming feel discouraged.

We should take courage because history has always moved forward. When it moves backward, it is only a temporary movement.

Just a brief bit about the history of the French Revolution:

By 1789, the bourgeoisie had numerous grievances they wished addressed. They wanted all Church, army and government positions open to men of talent and merit. They sought a Parliament that would make all the laws for the nation. They desired a constitution that would limit the king's powers. They also desired fair trials, religious toleration and vast administrative reforms. These are all liberal ideas that would certainly emerge after the summer of 1789.

The peasantry consisted of at least twenty-one million individuals during the 18th century. Their standard of living was perhaps better than the European peasantry in general. However, the French peasant continued to live in utmost poverty. Collectively, the peasantry owned 30-40% of the available land but mostly in small, semi-feudal plots. Most peasants did not own their land but rented it from those peasants who were wealthier or from the nobility. They tried to supplement their income by hiring themselves out as day laborers, textile workers or manual laborers. Peasants were victimized by heavy taxation - taxes were necessary to pay for the costs of war, something that had already consumed the French government for an entire century. So, the peasants paid taxes to the king, taxes to the church, taxes and dues to the lord of the manor, as well as numerous indirect taxes on wine, salt, and bread. Furthermore, the peasants also owed their lord a labor obligation. And throughout the 18th century, the price of rent was always increasing, as did the duties levied on goods sold in markets and fairs. By 1789, the plight of the French peasant was obvious. Taxes were increased as was rent. Peasants continued to use antiquated methods of agriculture. The price of bread soared and overall, prices continued to rise at a quicker rate than wages. To make matters worse, there was the poor harvest of 1788/89. The urban workers or artisans, as a group, consisted of all journeymen, factory workers and wage earners. The urban poor also lived in poverty, a poverty that was intensified by 1789. By that time, wages had increased by 22% while the cost of living increased 62%.

These, then, are the social causes that acted as a breeding ground for the grievances and passions the Revolution would unleash. But there are a few other causes, equally important, that are also worth our attention.

http://www.historyguide.org/intellect/lecture11a.html

Note that the taxes were necessary to a great extent to support the king's foreign wars. Sound familiar?

I am sure our leaders will see the error of their ways and finally care about this country and its people

Let me know when I wake up.............

Change only comes when they take it all from us. Enough said.

because you didn't get enough recommendations for your post. On an internet message board.

Turn off your computer and go outside for a while.

Regards,

Manny

They have no populist pretensions to hide behind anymore. Neither has Obama. The DLC is also done.

Our revolution is coming. If not this election, the next one.

Unfortunately, not soon enough for the Boomers, greatest generation and fatted calves for the "elite".

:hi:


:kick:




K&R

The corporations will be the next to go.

is to own it.

We can talk to each other on the Internet like we're doing now.

We can take to the streets, but nobody will notice because the MSM won't cover it.

Got any other ideas?

Make no mistake, their votes are bought and paid for.

give up, bail out, move on, lay down and die, give up the ghost, cry ourselves to sleep, swallow out own bile, drink the kool aid, inhale the toxins, jump off a cliff, swallow the pills, slit our wrists, burn the barn, throw out the baby with the bathwater,....did I miss anything?

tell you what I've changed my mind....but you go ahead and give up. It's getting tiring hearing the end of days predictions over and over.

look more favorably on the Chinese than they do elderly pensioners. Don't worry, Obama will step in to suggest 'more moderate' cuts to social security as a way to "save it".

there is something wrong with us. This move should be being announced on every news channel and every website as a header. I would like to say more but it would be illegal.

I don't like someone wagging their finger at me and the rest of the posters here for not being outraged enough at a piece of crap show bill that is going nowhere.

Besides, I didn't have to show him anything. He's done!

Let's all be cool about stuff. It's so....you know...cool.

Pennsylvanians tend to go with more moderate elected officials. They aren't going to tolerate Toomey with this bullshit.

security card and the stupid PO sent it back. Now all I am getting is the "lines are busy signal" Anyone ready for that revolution today? I need medicine, rent is due and heat has to be paid not to mention food. And they cannot put the correct address on a letter. Sorry for the rant.

You must have no Irish in you.

Yeah, there's an outrage shortage on DU!

:rofl:

post on a message board, my guess is that your "we're done" position has been your view for some time now (regardless of a rec count).

In 2008, I supported Edwards because he was the only candidate who understood the economic reality that our country was facing.

Think of it. He was brought down when news of his affair emerged. You can blame him. Yes, he shouldn't have had an affair especially when his wife was ill. But then think of the Elliot Spitzer outing. A pattern emerges.

And the pattern become more complex: Isn't it convenient how those who speak for the people's interests always seem to get caught having affairs and are embarrassed out of office (or running for office) whereas the guys who speak for wealth, power, Wall Street and manage to stay in office even after they are caught red-handed. Think Vitter. Think Ensign. They were never pushed out. They recite the party line.

And here on DU, the momentum was pro-Obama. Where in the world did that come from? Who or what was really behind the push for Obama? Obama's appearance and positions were marketable but as we now see, he was insincere about a lot of things that we take seriously, that most Americans take seriously.

Obama is not a person of the people. He went to elite schools. His mother worked for USAID. His grandmother rose to be an officer in a bank. Nothing wrong with those professions, but Obama was just not a child of poverty or of the people. He was always privileged.

Obama worked a couple of years in non-profit law in Chicago. That's the way a politician works his way up. Michelle is great, but she was a hospital administrator -- and DUers wonder why Obama gave away so much to hospitals when negotiating health care.

Obama is the product of a political machine. The reason we have so much corruption is that the corrupt make lots of money and can buy what they want including people, candidates, all the glitz and glamour that win elections.

When we all wise up and start looking for substance rather than glitz and glamour, we will take back our country. Until then, it's all just illusion, fun and games. I'm waiting for those among the Tea-Baggers who are sincere to discover how they have been taken. It will happen.

Maybe we should take another look at Kucinich. He is an experienced campaigner with principles. With a credible organization behind him, he has the honesty to appeal to Americans at this time of change. Any other suggestions?

are trying to say. A three-word post doesn't really say or mean much. Only rarely can three words communicate an idea. Please elaborate.

My point is I'm both tired and amused by the endless stream of breathless posts telling me how we are fucked and that it is all over.


That's all,

Your comments about how you feel are interesting but they aren't argument. Unless you can provide evidence for your optimism, your posts sound like wishful thinking. That's all.

50 years of living where I have seen worse? An appreciation of American history? 5 year of doom and gloom on DU? A optimistic outlook in general?

And I'm not sure how "privileged" a biracial kid in the '60s with an absentee father can be. Unlike cheating on your wife, that is out of a person's control.

The powers that be are gunning to screw us all over and STEAL our Social Security for their greedy and diabolical selves.

Make NO mistake about that!!! :grr:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

:kick:

Is that enough outrage for you? Are we still done?

Unless outrage results in action, its presence or lack thereof says nothing about any feeling of helplessness we may or may not have. You also imply that a high rec count is the agreed upon instrument for its measure.

Well, hopefully these 139 recs can lift you out of your morose despondency.

They're daily: They're gonna cut it. Run for the hills.

Tiresome.

some of us are at work and can't access DU.