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Amerigo Vespucci Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:02 PM
Original message
Justin Bieber: Rape "is really sad, but everything happens for a reason."
Backlash over Bieber's view on abortion

By Eric Marrapodi, Co-Editor CNN Belief Blog

In the video above, AJ Hammer from HLN's Showbiz Tonight reports that Justin Bieber is turning heads following a Rolling Stone article in which he talked about his opposition to abortion, even in cases of rape.

He told the magazine:

I really don't believe in abortion. I think (an embryo) is a human. It's like killing a baby. (In the case a rape), I think that's really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I don't know how that would be a reason. I guess I haven't been in that position, so I wouldn't be able to judge that.

The pop star has made no secret of his Christian faith over the course of his short career. In an article about his new 3D movie, "Justin Bieber: Never Say Never," Religion News Service asked if Bieber was becoming a "tween evangelist."

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/18/backlash-over-biebers-view-on-abortion/?hpt=T2
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Kennah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
1. I want to conclude "Young and dumb", but I'm not sure that I'm correct.
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 05:04 PM by Kennah
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SmileyRose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:12 AM
Response to Reply #1
76. I'm with you - stupidity of youth.
Hopefully he can learn something from this so he doesn't end up old a dumb too.
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somone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. Like it 'must have been God's will', eh?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x4738365
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:04 PM
Response to Original message
3. Ugh. What a grossly uneducated child.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Child being the key word...he's got a lot of growing up to do. n/t
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Control-Z Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #4
53. And the chances are, he's one that will never grow up. n/t
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 12:12 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. He's a 16 year old boy. It's awfully early to predict how he'll mature...
People are known to grow up after some years of living. He hasn't even begun to live. He's just a teenager.

Now, if he was 25 and saying this, then I think there's good reason to point out the idiocy.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Yeah, but we were loving us some "Biebs" the other day when he was
talking bad about US health care.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 06:23 AM
Response to Reply #15
67. Irony
was those comments were in the same interview as these comments.

Personally, I believe he's 16 years old and still figuring stuff out.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #3
36. going to grow up to be another white man who tells women what to do. another
reason to ignore his no talent little ass.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
5. wtf is wrong with these males. this is the second one i hear so readily dismissing their genders
attack on the other gender.

fuck that shit. the reason it happens is cause these assholes take rape so lightly

murder is really sad, but everything happens for a reason.
child abuse is sad, but happens for a reason

fuck this shit
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
43. he's a kid
kids are stupid. sometimes they grow out of it.
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sakabatou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
6. Hold on, lemme get something from my car trunk...
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Johonny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:07 PM
Response to Original message
7. I met him the other week.
Seemed all nice and polite for a kid. He is just a kid. " I guess I haven't been in that position, so I wouldn't be able to judge that." kind of a shrug statement.
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Angry Dragon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
27. wrong place
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 10:09 PM by Angry Dragon
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
34. I remembet a kid like Justin Bieber.
Kid I met in college. They called him Mr. McMoral. We stayed up all night arguing about abortion rights. He was totally against it. By the time he graduated from college he banged up a girl, stayed with her until she had the baby and then he abandoned her and the baby to go on to finish graduate work.

All talk and no sense of personal responsibility.
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lapislzi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why is this being reported as "news?"
We live in an idiocracy. Despair.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. So then what is the reason we have him inflicted upon us?
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. He's a wealthy young entertainer. He knows stuff. nt
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
10. What do I do now? I rely on Justin Bieber for all my views.
Never heard of him a year ago. Now the newspaper I pick up each day on the subway has Justin Bieber stories every time.

There's some creature named Heidi Montag that I could also have gone my entire life without hearing about, but apparently I must.

I miss John Lennon.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
11. Isn't this the same youngster folks here was saying was so wonderful
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 05:13 PM by Obamanaut
because of his statement regarding health care in the US? It was only a couple of days ago.

According to the article "...I guess I haven't been in that position..." regarding rape - "I guess"! Don't you think he would know? He should stick to entertaining and not voice opinions.
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bighart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Why yes it is.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. Yes, he was heralded for that...
...apparently people didn't finish reading the article and missed that he was anti-choice.

It's funny how quickly people go from hero's to under the bus goats within just days - sometimes only hours.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. I see....So it's not possible to be correct on one issue and wrong on another?

:shrug:
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prolesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. No, that would require shades of gray
instead of unilateral proclamations. It's either all good or all bad around here these days.
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cordelia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. Praises couldn't be sung loudly enough.
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fishwax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #11
52. so people here are likely to agree with some of his opinions and disagree with others
No surprise there :shrug:

I remember the health care thread -- his stance on abortion came up in that thread as well ...
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
12. Justin Bieber Found To Be Cleverly Disguised 51-Year-Old Pedophile


http://www.theonion.com/video/justin-bieber-found-to-be-cleverly-disguised-51yea,18178/
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JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:17 PM
Response to Original message
17. i think he is stupid, i wish they wouldn't ask him these questions because other young people
would be influenced by the shit he says.

i remember some girls were blaming Rihanna for getting beat up.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. news flash, many young teens are dumb and unwise
And have yet to gain life experience to form their philosophies.

Not sure why they ask a bubble gum pop star about serious issues in the first place.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
19. why was anyone asking this young idiot his views on anything? certainly not about rape or choice.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
20. no, you clueless little jerk, rape is NOT "really sad", it is a horrific CRIME.
did anybody read the link--this line made me want to do a reverse protein spill:

"As a Christian, he's someone to look up to. " WHY should we look up to this ignorant little twit? I have clothes older than he is, and my cats are a whole lot smarter than he is (not to mention, they are pagans)

note to self: stop reading this bs without a glass of wine in hand.
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Ilsa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. +1000. he needs to grow up. nt
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. +1
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Mushroom Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #20
59. I have a house plant older than Beiber. nt

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missheidi Donating Member (152 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
21. Should a teeny bopper really be giving his opinion out on this?
Really?
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
25. That's a bit misleading, and not what he meant.
I disagree with Beibers view on abortion (and am certainly no fan of the pablum he calls music), but at least get the quote right. He was talking about abortion, and the subject of pregnancies resulting from rape. He was suggesting that the pregnancy happened for a reason, not the rape.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
28. Um, uh, what the fuck?
The pregnancy happened because of a rape and unless the idiot has self mis-represented the idiot thinks that this is 'god's will'.

"Even in the case of rape?
Um. Well, I think that's really sad, but everything happens for a reason. I don't know how that would be a reason. I guess I haven't been in that position, so I wouldn't be able to judge that."

The idiot can't judge this situation, can't figure out if a woman should be forced to continue a rape induced pregnancy to term. But "everything happens for a reason", rape, pregnancy, everything. The idiot is opposed to all abortions, but hadn't learned the talking points regarding raped women, so the idiot was double clutching. Why we give a flying fuck what the idiot thinks about anything escapes me, but his thoughts, muddled as they are, are indefensible.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:00 PM
Response to Original message
26. Who give's a fart's ass what beeber thinks?
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eShirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:17 PM
Response to Original message
29. don't quit your day job, kid
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Safetykitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
30. In a Christ centered belief, Christ has a little list. It's not negotiable.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #30
57. "I come not in peace, but with a sword." -- Jesus
:shrug:

:banghead:
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hamsterjill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:51 AM
Response to Reply #30
69. What?
I'm a Christian. And I am DEFINITELY pro choice. It is none of my business what another woman does with her body. And it is no one else's business what I do with mine.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:09 AM
Response to Reply #30
74. In the plethora of christ-sky-being cults, that list is all over the place.
So just by probability alone, most christ sky-being believers are going to hell for choosing the wrong list.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. Bieber is a has been.
You heard it here first. Him and Kirk Cameron. Kirk who?
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
41. and they are both christians. wonder if kirk has been giving him tips?
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:26 PM
Response to Original message
32. Bieber is a kid who is legit pro-life
Legit pro-life people are rare. He already said he thinks health care should be universal. He'll grow up and believe what he ends up believing but as much as I disagree with him I can't blame him too much for his opinion on this.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. PLEASE quit using THEIR term "pro-life" they are NOT. they ARE pro-forced birth, anti-choice woman
haters.

and just how do you determine that he is "legit"? oh, wait, he IS legit-- a real pro-forced birth woman hater.

as such, I CAN blame him for his ignorant, hateful opinions, not to mention the people who are giving him a platform, "because, as a christian, we should look up to him"
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #39
68. Saying he's "pro forced birth" is like saying I'm "pro fetal death"
There are in both cases consequences to our values that are imperfect.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #68
70. I see what you're saying.
I'd have to say "anti-abortion" is the most accurate term, personally. Pro-abortion rights, anti-abortion rights. That's what it is, though everyone is so media-savvy these days, they dress up every sharp word with something sparkly, as if by instinct.
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Recursion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #70
71. It was striking because 48 hours ago DU was praising him for the same interview
in which he (rightly) expressed horror at the cruelty of our health care system and talked about how much better Canada's is.

And, FWIW, he ended up saying about abortion "I've never been in that position so I couldn't judge it".
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. I wasn't one of those praising him, so I can criticize him all I want.
and, just in case you hadn't noticed, he IS judging a situation that he, as a male, will NEVER face.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. no, you are the one dressing up woman-hating as something other than what it is.
and, in case you haven't noticed, it isn't just abortion these woman-hating cretins are after--contraception is right up there.
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Marr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. How am I "dressing up woman hating as something other than what it is"?
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 11:21 PM by Marr
Saying the self-described "pro-life" crowd is actually "anti-abortion rights" is making light of misogyny how, exactly?
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npk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
49. This kid seems pretty conservative to me
From the way his mother has talked to they are very conservative on most social issues. Just because he thinks the US Health care system stinks, doesn't make him progressive. In fact I know several people that are as far right as you can go that believe our health care system is junk. Pretty much everyone all over the world believe that. This kid may not be as far right as would consider most conservative is this country, but I don't find him very progressive on most social fronts either.
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
35. He's so terribly young.
and more to the point: He hasn't had much time for thinking or introspection in his young life, has he?

It'll catch up to him though.
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
37. Hey Bieb, here's something else that's "sad"...Ever hear of a lady named Lorena Bobbitt?
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 10:39 PM by whathehell
She wasn't into the "rape happens" philosophy, she was more the "pro-active" type.

Being "sad" about being raped and beaten repeatedly, so she cut off the rapist's

penis with a knife and then

threw it out a car window.

It was sad, but it happens. :shrug:
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. self-delete
Edited on Fri Feb-18-11 10:48 PM by niyad
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
38. He's a kid
Let's let him grow up before we slam him too much.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. sorry, he is a kid who has been led to believe that his ignorant young opinions matter, so I will
slam him whenever he says something stupid.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. well I hope that makes you happy.
If he's been led to believe that his ignorant young opinions matter, perhaps you should focus your ire on the people and society that have so misled him.

That would seem a more cost effective strategy.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. and perhaps I already am.
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Teaser Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #55
77. indeed
the thing is, most kids are assholes. It's part of development.

The difference between this teenage boy and most others is that someone has shoved a microphone into his face.

In time, he'll likely grow, and some of this opinions will change. But the microphone pushers will have someone new to promote.
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BearArms Donating Member (8 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:51 PM
Response to Original message
45. Beebs should be the Republican presidential candidate in 2040
He's clearly the greatest political mind of our generation.

I don't care if he's only 16. I'm just a couple of years older than him and I can very clearly see that his view on abortion is...well...retarded. It doesn't take a ton of life experience to understand that rape is not some kind of indirect blessing from God.

Not that he is in any way relevant to serious political issues in any way, shape, or form.
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. welcome to DU--sadly, you may be right about his political chances
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flvegan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:53 PM
Response to Original message
46. Regurgitates a few talking points, then maybe has an actual thought or two.
That's how I read it.

I don't know the kid, but it seems like there's a lot of "what I'm *supposed* to do/say" in his life. I dunno.
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unblock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:54 PM
Response to Original message
47. that whole hitler/holocaust thing was really sad, too. i guess that happened for a reason.
from a completely egocentic, amoral perspective, i might consider the holocaust fortunate, because my parents would never have met otherwise, and i wouldn't exist were it not for hitler and his attempted genocide.

but of course, that's a completely ridiculous way of looking at the world and an absolutely horrendous rationale for justifying anything. what hitler did was manifestly evil and has no excuse, not withstanding some whimsical, sophomoronic philosophy that finds a silver lining in every cloud.

rape is not "really sad", it's an abomination.

and forced pregnancy is also an abomination
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last_texas_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
48. He believes the raped should have to carry their babies to term,
and that America is "evil" for not having universal health care.

There's enough in those two statements to piss off just about everyone... haha
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GreenEyedLefty Donating Member (708 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:04 PM
Response to Original message
51. I don't know any 16 year old who has a mature, fully formed world view.
Why he was asked such hard-hitting questions is beyond me.

And.. he's Canadian so of course he likes universal health care.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-18-11 11:43 PM
Response to Original message
56. "Sad"
I wonder if that is the word he'd use if rape happened to him. Being male, he won't ever 'be in that position' of pregnancy after rape, unless his God is wanting to try something different this time, you know, just for variety.

What a little shit.
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upi402 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
60. why is this an issue? n/t
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pulledpork Donating Member (175 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:18 AM
Response to Original message
61. Ozzy should have bit his head off in that ad
For real.
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
62. You'd think he'd be a little more open to this...
After all, he is SUCH a pretty girl...
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #62
81. I thought he was a girl the first time I saw his pic in a checkout line.
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Union Scribe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
63. Seriously, screw Rolling Stone
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 02:45 AM by Union Scribe
There was no reason to do this to either that kid or to the rest of us by taking a child pop singer and pulling political statements out of him. His manager should have slapped their hand over his mouth and dragged him far, far away from this sort of crap. But no, now he's a damn pundit and I have to see his editorial opinion on the front of every 'news' site.
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Stevenmarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:07 AM
Response to Reply #63
72. A stupid question to ask someone not far from the embryonic stage himself
Edited on Sat Feb-19-11 08:08 AM by Stevenmarc
I agree, his management seriously failed him.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:47 AM
Response to Original message
64. Bieber STFU! stick with the 12 year old girlies their buying you the porches
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StarsInHerHair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
65. I:ve seen too much of life to believe that, if it happens it's because they got
away with it, not that it was meant to be. There's even a book "why we suffer" and Bieber should read it.
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
66. This Justin Bieber??
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pipi_k Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 08:32 AM
Response to Original message
73. Um....hello?
He's 16.

He's a baby.


Of course he's going to say stupid things.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:12 AM
Response to Original message
75. Why are his opinions suddenly all over the news?
What next, his take on Egypt? He's a minor child!

I'd rather hear about Palin!
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Edweird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-19-11 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
78. "everything happens for a reason." I hate that phrase and the people that use it.
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