From 2007: Student Backlash Brews Against Untimed Tests (Wealthy parents gaming the system)

This is how it works. Rich parents shop around for a doctor to tell them what they want to hear ("Little Brittany or Dylan has a 'learning disability', giving them rights to take un-timed tests, including the SAT") All kinds of nonsense is being used as a learning disability now, from claims of "anxiety" brought on by taking tests to phony claims of ADHD, which in no way resemble a real case of ADHD. All so Jr. can take an untimed standardized test, and up their chances of getting into an elite college.


http://www.nysun.com/new-york/student-backlash-brews-against-untimed-tests/60619/

Student Backlash Brews Against Untimed Tests

The Saturday that Sara Katherine Paxton took the SAT, at a private school on the Upper West Side, the line of nervous 17-year-olds waiting to sign in snaked nearly halfway through the entrance room. Flustered, a proctor put his hands on his desk and stood up.

"If you have extra time, stand to the side," he said. Half the teenagers stepped out of line — and, Miss Paxton said, no one batted an eye.

The practice of giving students with learning disabilities more time to take their tests has become so common at top private schools in New York City and across the country that students say it carries nearly no stigma. For everything from the SAT to weekly math quizzes, they say, a growing number of students will get as much as double the standard time allotment, and no one pays much attention.

Disability rights activists describe the trend as an important victory for students with difficulties such as dyslexia and attention deficit disorder, but a small number of students are waging a battle against the accommodations, a struggle that could intensify when the SAT season begins again this fall. Their target audience: college admissions officers, who they say risk being hoodwinked into admitting students with artificially impeccable transcripts.

more

to succeed in college and in the working world.

Sorry. But everyone, with no exceptions, should take tests within the same time limits.

Next thing you know, there will be a special easier test for people with reading disabilities. The test tests what it tests. Students who can't take the college entrance examinations in the standard time should not get special help. It doesn't do any good to cheat in this way.

We all have different talents. Giving some students this advantage means that students who can finish the test within the normal time are disadvantaged in terms of the competitive aspect of the test.

I am very sympathetic toward people with disabilities including learning disabilities, but, I'm quite short, and I don't get to have any advantages when I try to play basketball or other sports with tall people. I'm very nearsighted, but I don't get some special vision test when I go to get my driver's license.

Giving special advantages to some students on the college entrance exams is just unfair to everyone else.

"Your honor, I object, but you're going to have to give me a few minutes to remember why."

Next thing you know blind kids will be demanding special tests. They can read the words just like everyone else, damnit!

The kids that have actual disabilities should get help, but the people gaming the system need to be weeded out. I'd say the schools need a doctor they can send the kids to, but that would require actually funding schools properly.

Your basketball game doesn't determine the course the rest of your life will take. These tests do.
You do get special help for your license: You're allowed to wear your glasses.

In the rich suburbs there is a joke that half the kids are "gifted" and half are in special ed.

If the kids score better then the schools ratings go up.

If you have money you can get whatever diagnosis you want. Imagine testing 1/3 of the class to see if they really have ADHD, dyslexia etc? And if you reject the diagnosis as a school, the parents can sue.

All that said, I never wanted extra time. I got nervous and wanted to leave. They never let me, tho. I'd have to sit around for 20 minutes waiting.

by the University she is attending. The diagnosis from her home based doctor was not accepted.

no, I did not get the diagnosis when it became the rage, but oh a long time ago... I can tell you that partially you are wrong.

I cannot do shit for chemistry... it is a real problem with math. It has a name by the way.

But as a medic (where speed is essential) I did fine.

Yes some of these kids are getting faux diagnosis, but these disabilities are real.

But the school can test or retest your kid at the high school level to confirm the results.

One thing they can also do, is force your kid in a reading disability class. Believe me, no rich kid is going to want to do this if he doesn't actually have the disorder.

If you read this carefully, they show no proof that anyone is really doctor shopping and getting unlimited time who doesn't deserve it.

They are basically saying that students are complaining that if you get extra time, you shouldn't then be going on to good colleges.

So good colleges shouldn't have admissions policies that accommodate disabilities? Um... really?

This sounds a hell of a lot like stirring up a story where none exists, and stirring up prejudices against people with disabilities in the process.

It is already hard enough for people with disabilities to go to college without people thinking that we don't deserve it, and suspecting that we're cheating to get there.

The right already is orchestrating a bunch of other ways to prevent people from going to college, like shutting down financial aid, and killing support for public universities.

This is just one more attack in that arsenal.

More right wing griping about handicapped ramps/parking and how what those kids with learning disabilities really need is a good beating.

How dare Obamacare ADA sociafascicommies take away my GOD-given right to have ROUND doorknobs! Survival of the fittest!!1 Atlas Shrugged garblarblarble!!!! (this being the most common condemnation I have heard of the Americans with Disabilities Act, to my utter confusion)

In all honesty, while I have very good grammar and spelling abilities, I think that dyslexia and similar disabilities are far underdiagnosed, and insufficiently accomodated. I can take just about any kind of test you want to give me and ace it...that doesn't mean that people who can't are any less intelligent, or less deserving of meaningful educational opportunity than me. Standardized tests are a terrible way to judge someone's fitness for college anyway, and in many school admission policies, the emphasis on such test scores is on the decline.

I've been reading these articles for sometime now. This is not the first. The last one included a study that showed how one very wealthy, private school had a high number of kids getting accepted into Ivy Leagues, but also, they had a high number of kids who were able to take a longer time on the test. The thing is, at the time, the colleges and universities couldn't tell which test takers were taking the test with the longer times. I don't know if that has changed.

Why it annoyed me at the time is that my daughter was forced to retest for dyslexia in high school in order to get the longer time for the SAT's. I wasn't expecting that and didn't understand why it was necessary. I felt she was being picked on unfairly because of the strange situation that exists in my local town. Fortunately, I got to the meeting before she did and I told the teachers/testers to give me the bad news up front because I didn't want my daughter hearing it. I told them that her academic success is the result of wonderful tutors who taught her how to work around her problem and my daughter has managed to come through it without thinking of herself as any less than anybody else. That meeting almost upset that mind frame.

Afterwards, I started seeing the articles that rich people were gaming the system. This was a few years back. I didn't take it so personally, after that. I figured the retesting was being applied to everyone.

So is, for that matter, ADHD. My beef is with the parents who pay big bucks to shop around for doctors and therapists to diagnose their children with bogus cases of ADHD (which is known to be overdiagnosed) or some made up pseudo-intellectual disorder meant to get them extra test time.

If I had an untimed SAT test, my score would have been higher. Those standardized tests don't leave you with very much breathing space. It's almost as if they are not just testing your aptitude, but your speed and efficiency. It was hard to get all of the questions done, and I had to neglect double checking on a lot of the math questions.

If I had a higher score, I might have been Ivy League material.

A truly dyslexic child will manifest the problem in the early grades. Believe me, if they have to get pulled out of class to attend special ed classes they grow up thinking they're dumb, which takes all kinds of special attention pumping their self-esteem in other areas to offset that negative. No parent would subject their kid to that deeming situation unless they absolutely had to. So, if the rich parents are waiting until the middle school or high school years to run to their shrinks for the diagnosis, that should be a tip-off.

I had a niece who was top of her class. 4++ GPA. Outside volunteer interests. The whole thing.

She didn't get in to UVa. Her parents (who are smarter than this) and others in the room blamed "foreigners" for taking up spots.

I interjected myself into the discussion, "Look I know this sucks and none of us like it but it isn't the foreigners who are taking up those spots. Richmond (where I live) is full of legacies who are born to go to St. Christophers or Collegiate or any of the supreme private schools in the area and are going to UVa as a birthright because at least one parent went there probably grandparents if not beyond that. THEY soak up 97% of the spots and (our relative) had to battle it out with other super achievers for the few spots that remained."

My uncle, her father, nodded and said "Yeah you are probably right"

For any public school to do that is an outrage. Even for a private university it is still wrong and contrary to meritocracy.

I have a friend who said he couldn't interview five good Duke applicants for a position in his company because the company only hired UNC students. Even though the Duke applicants were superior.

This is the reason for the dumbing down that we find in our professional fields. People who got in through rich entitlements are use to playing the angles. They socially leap frog up the ladder, probably getting unethical assistance along the way. I don't have the studies to prove it, but I bet people who luck into a position through Affirmative Action come in with a completely different mind frame.

Your daughter is getting a higher grade than she could get if held to the same objective standards as the other students. You are doing exactly the same thing you are complaining that rich people are doing.

That is the whole point of having objective testing. It is the whole point to using objective testing as a method of admissions screening.

you obviously have absolutely NO comprehension of what a learning difference/disability is like.

Timed test taking is one of the most basic things in college. If you can't pass simple timed tests than college probably isn't for you.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

My son has Aspergers and ADHD. It takes him half an hour just to write a short paragraph. When tested by licensed psychiatrists at the University of Iowa, he tested through the roof in Mathematics, especially in spacial reasoning. He's currently in the 7th grade and regularly tests in the 95+ percentile on the ITBS in math since he's began taking them. Watching him do his math homework, he does everything in his head. In other subjects he also tests very well. Until, that is, he has to write. Then everything comes to a screeching halt. Also, timed tests create anxiety for him and he has a tendency to just shut down and wait for the time to run out, before he starts. Just getting him to remember to turn in his homework, which he finishes on time, is an ongoing battle.

But I guess to you, he's not college material and he should stick to an occupation more suitable for his inferior mental capacity. Lucky for us, we've been told by therapists, that if schools do not make accomodations for him, he will be at risk for falling behind as he gets older and failing to graduate high school. That should save us a lot of money in tuition.

Not to mention that every single test is going to have some time limit.

How much would you be helping by getting him into college if he lacks the most basic skills required to succeed?

But I guess you don't consider Aspergers or ADHD to be disabilities. Just bullshit excuses for dumb kids who shouldn't be wasting your precious tax dollars with their expensive accommodations.

The ADA makes no such claims. Why don't you try to point to the specifics in the law which you think make me wrong, as opposed to waving your hand and declaring it?

If your son fails at the most basic activities required to succeed at college than he shouldn't go.

You are making him sound like an invalid. He gets straight A's, once his disabilities are recognized and compensated for. He's also taking math courses above his grade level.

But to you, he's better off not clogging up the educational system because he's stupid.

http://www.ncld.org/at-school/your-childs-rights/iep-aamp-504-plan/section-504-and-idea-comparison-chart

Note that IDEA and 504 apply only to K-12, but many Universities and Colleges are offering the same accommodations.

If it takes over an hour to write a short paragraph than he is certainly failing at the most basic activities.

"But to you, he's better off not clogging up the educational system because he's stupid."
Straw man non-sense. He should get the same basic education that everyone receives. When his abilities are insufficient it should be accurately reflected in his grades. After high school, he should be held to the same objective standards as everyone else when being reviewed for college admissions.

The adjustments that are made for him have nothing to do with the course work requirements. In the case of writing, which is his biggest issue, he's allowed to use a computer to do his written assignments and tests. For timed tests, he is allowed to take them in a separate room with no clock. The accommodations under 504 are actually quite minor.

Section 504 does apply to college admissions tests, including untimed entrance exams.

What happened to taking over an hour to write a short paragraph?

You are failing to properly interpret section 504 of the ADA. It in no way justifies giving extra time to students.

It's the mechanics of handwriting that impedes him. On a computer, he has no trouble writing fluently.

Section 504 does allow for untimed tests, but the test is marked as being taken in a nonstandardized format.

As opposed to being unable to write because he can't generate content. Letting someone with a writing disability use a computer is perfectly reasonable accommodation. Giving extra time is not.

My explanation of his handwritten issues was in a part of this thread.

Sounds like one of the issues.

Read the books by Mel Levine (yes he may have done some terrible things,I don't know, but the books are amazing!) A Mind at a Time, and The Myth of Laziness. Excellent for helping to tease out those underlying learning differences. You have to be a detective to figure out all the issues that are affecting your kids.

Here's some immediate resourcea:

http://www.ldinfo.com/dysgraphia.htm
http://www.ldonline.org/article/What_is_Dysgraphia%3F
http://www.ldonline.org/article/Dysgraphia%3A_More_Than_Just_Bad_Handwriting
http://www.ldonline.org/article/6202

http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/dyslexia.htm

http://www.ncld.org/ld-basics/ld-aamp-language/writing/dysgraphia


http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2005/05/sensory-motor-dysgraphia-mis-diagnosed.html

Slow Handwriting: How Dysgraphia Affects Testing and Leads to Underachievement: http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/slow-handwriting-how-dysgraphia-affects.html


As math gets to the level where he going to HAVE to write things down you have to develop some strategies. There are some excellent software programs/gadgets out there now (probably way better than when I looked into it years ago) - or there are some paper and pencil strategies to use.

Handwriting difficulty is a common trait with Aspergers. He writes fluently on a computer. For math, he has this infuriating little shorthand technique that he uses for "showing his work". He's explained it to me, but I have never quite grasped what he's doing. His math teacher is baffled by it as well. It's hard to convince him that showing his work will help him get partial credit on wrong answers, when he never gets any of the answers wrong. All of his teachers let him do his written homework on the computer. When he does have to write by hand, they give him extra time. What's weird is that he has no problem with writing mathematical formulas. It's just language skills where he struggles.

His biggest problem is that his mind runs faster than his body, which I can sympathize with. I have moderate ADHD and I struggle with slowing down my thoughts when writing. I'm not college material either. I dropped out in my freshman year. When I finally went back, graduated with a 3.94. I wish I had known then, what I know now.

Colleges and Universities are making great strides in assisting kids with ADHD, but the kids have to be self advocates to get that assistance. The challenge for twice exceptional kids is that their intelligence will often mask their disabilities until its too late.

It can be much more than a "handwriting difficulty" - but a true disability.

Where language (English) is stored in the brain is different from where symbols are stored in the brain - like math and pictograph languages such as Chinese. My son could "draw" beautiful letters in English, but his "handwriting" was nearly illegible! And his Chinese characters are great!


There are three "types" of dysgraphia - he could have one or a combination of all three. It's important to figure out which "type" because the strategies can differ. Sometimes it can be a retrieval issue - "finding" the information. Then there could be a "disconnect" between the brain and the hand - getting the hand to do what the brain tells it to do. Or it could be the muscular development of the hand, arm, and upper shoulder - specific exercises for each...

And when you're thinking so far ahead of your hand, it's hard to keep your thoughts organized. (Then there's a "organizational disability/difference" that could be a factor as well. "SEQUENCING" - especially on paper - can be a huge challenge.)

Kids with Aspergers develop their gross motor skills much slower than their peers. He still struggles with tying his shoes and usually keeps them loosely tied so he can slip them on and off with out having to deal with the laces. The organizational disability disappears when he's on the computer, which is a godsend.

Ever used Livescribe? We are considering it as an option for notetaking.

If you can't do the work in the same time frame, you don't really deserve the same credit.

And, of course, you've forgotten to include the part of the article that does note that in NYState, about 3% of students get special accomodation. That's hardly an epidemic.

I don't hold with buying doctors

but this anxiety is a very real thing and I don't appreciate your sneering at it.

ANXIETY can be a very debilitating disorder and is a very real one. Please don't make fun of things you don't understand.

The whole point of objective testing is to determine the people who have the knowledge, skills, and ability. Being able to answer questions with limited time is one of those things.

Who is "sneering at it"? All I have seen is that people expect that tests are administered in a way that doesn't give a huge advantage to people who would fail if held to the same objective standards as everyone else.

fail tests by getting very low scores solely because of their disabilities?

That is exactly what would happen if you had your way.

The whole point of giving people with real disabilities extra time is that it is the only way that has been found so far to negate the effect of disabilities. Have you got a better solution other than discriminating against all people with disabilities?

it's a debilitating illness.

they HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE SKILLS AND ABILITY - sometimes - many times - well in excess of those "NT's" out there who "TEST TAKE" so well.

It's not about how gd fast you can take a test - it's about how well you KNOW THE SUBJECT!!!

So someone who can't do it certainly doesn't have the skills, knowledge, and ability.

It certainly does matter whether or not students can recall and interpret information in a reasonable amount of time. "Knowing the subject" doesn't matter if you can't recall the information in a time frame that is useful.

is BULLSHIT.

There are very good "test takers" out there who are basically dumb as a stump.

Give me an actual intelligent person any day.

Okay - let's say you walk into take the test. You know it COLD. And then someone puts a hornets nest around your neck and says, now write all this stuff down in 30 minutes or the hornets will fly out and sting you to death. How well do you think you can concentrate on accessing all that knowledge you have?

They have the knowledge skills and ability to do everything that you can do. They just don't do it in a "certain time frame" - and to SOME PEOPLE - TELLING THEM THEY HAVE A TIME LIMIT SHORT CIRCUITS THEIR THINKING SO THAT THEY CAN"T DO IT. For some of these people, give them the test and tell them it's time and they can't do it. Tell them it's untimed and they finish it faster than YOU do. (That's why it's called an ANXIETY DISORDER!)

Okay - let's say you KNOW everything. But you have a writing disorder. Or dyslexia. Or - hey - maybe you're sight impaired and someone has to read you the damn test. Or maybe you have cerebral palsy and have to use a proctor to write for you. Or maybe you have a "time sense" disorder. Or maybe you have any myriad other disorders, disabilities or LEARNING DIFFERENCES or short-term memory ACCESS problems that have nothing to do with "intelligence."

If you want to understand about learning differences I suggest two books A Mind at a Time and The Myth of Laziness (and yeah I know what the author was accused of, but that has nothing to do with these books)

You cannot reason with people who believe that mental disabilities are fake. Explaining anxiety disorder to someone who thinks its just an excuse for being stupid is a waste of time.

For me, it just triggers a couple of weeks worth of insomnia worrying that they may be right. ;)

They are certainly real disabilities. The real question is should those disabilities cause them to receive preferential treatment, as opposed to equal treatment.

Do you consider giving blind students braille textbooks and oral exams preferential treatment?

It is a test of how well you can answer questions in a short period of time. If you remove the time restriction than it is preferential treatment.

Do you think blind students should get the answers in braille for vision test charts?

I don't remember a single college course I took in which time was a factor on any test I took.

Just because you finished before the time limit, doesn't mean it wasn't there.

For a person who suffers from anxiety disorder, it's the explicit time limit that becomes the debilitating factor. When my son takes timed tests, without knowing they are timed, he completes them quickly. It's when he's told that the test is timed, that he freezes. Anxiety medication sometimes helps, but it also impairs cognitive ability. The simple solution for him is to be given the test in a room by himself with no clock. It also helps if the room is not brightly lit, but that's Aspergers.

The same with dimming the lights, having audio for the deaf, braille for the blind, and computers for those who are physically unable to write.

The difference is that those are reasonable accommodations that level the playing field without creating an unfair advantage. It wouldn't give an advantage to a non-disabled student to have those same accommodations.

The time issue can be solved for my son in variety of simple ways, but it doesn't work for everyone. For myself, when I was in school I would turn in all of my tests long before any of the other students. But if the test had an explicit time requirement, I doubt even the removal of the clock would solve the problem. I don't remember what I got on the SAT or ACT, but I know that I would have done better if the time factor had been removed. Once my brain is locked in on the imposed limit, all other cognitive ability stops. It's the only thought in my head. I ended up dropping out of college for a number of reasons, but ADHD was a contributing factor. At the time, I did not know that I had it. I just figured I was lazy and stupid. Now that I know what it is, I actually find the non ADHD world rather insipid and wouldn't trade the chaos in my head for anything. Too bad the world doesn't work on my clock.

If you can't do the most basic activities required than you shouldn't be at college. Taking tests with a time limit is ubiquitous in college. Which is a major reason they require timed standardized tests. If you can't do that than you lack the fundamental skills that are required.


So should we give braille to the blind for their vision tests? Then the blind children will all pass their vision tests. Giving extra time on a timed mental skills test is exactly like giving a deaf person closed captioning and claiming it means they can hear.

Because evidently, you are completely BLIND!

No - giving extra time on a timed mental test is exactly like giving a blind student their test in braille.

How about letting deaf people use closed captioning during a hearing test?

Giving them extra time on a timed test makes the results just as meaningless.

I have 20/20 vision because I wore my glasses when they checked my eyes.

According to you, you shouldn't have been allowed to WEAR GLASSES FOR YOUR VISION TEST.

Have you ever taken an eye exam? You DON'T wear your glasses when you take it, because it is to determine if you need glasses. It is just as stupid as giving blind children the answers in braille and telling them they have perfect vision. Or giving closed captioning during a hearing test. Or giving extra time on a timed exam.

It is not discrimination for a blind child to fail a vision test. Anymore than it is discrimination to fail someone who can't answer questions quickly on a timed test.

their TEST NOT IN BRAILLE, now wouldn't it?

You have absolutely no comprehension of learning disabilities and disorders. You do not understand this topic AT ALL.

You don't want to understand it. I hope and pray your child never ever has a disability because you will be ridiculing them for being stupid because they're not like the "other kids".

If you are testing how well they can answer questions in a timed situation, than giving students extra time is discrimination, not accommodation.

There is nothing to your opinion to understand. You think they should get more time because without it they would get lower scores. They will get lower scores because the test is supposed to award lower scores to students who fail to answer questions rapidly and accurately.

It isn't discrimination when a blind child fails a vision test, a deaf child fails a hearing test, or a mentally disabled child fails a test of mental function.

Or redesign the test so time is not a factor. Thought this was going to be about Prof. Fines 4+hr final exams with no time limit. Except for the year it coincided with a Celtics playoff game and he threatened to end it after 6hrs or atleast more it to the local pub.

disability. Their tests results would be considered less valid because they were always singled out.

because they've been given a special advantage not granted to others. It's like taking ten seconds off the sprint time of the slowest kids and pretending they ran just as well as the faster children.

No stigma and should cover most of people's concerns.

:eyes:

Come one, critical thinking, anyone? :eyes:

Before I believe a right wing rag, I'd expect some proof. Especially when they're pushing an accusation that makes people want to distrust people's qualifications for going to college.

That is a republican dream, getting us all to distrust and dislike college students.
-One, because college students tend to be lefties and they want to keep down college admissions anyway.

-Two, because they distrust academics and intellectuals, so they would want to discourage anyone from going to college to become academics and intellectuals.

-Three, it makes a good distraction so you are focusing on supposed rule breakers that aren't really there, instead of focusing on problems with the standardized tests themselves.

This really reads to me like they're using students with real disabilities as scapegoats, and writing about how people are getting upset about how "those people" need extra time legitimately and then get into colleges, and people resent it because they think people with disabilities are taking admissions spots that they think they deserved instead.

Well, just because students with disabilities need extra time to take a test doesn't mean they aren't smart enough to get into colleges, even damned good colleges. And colleges know that. That's why they are admitting these kids with who have disabilities. So it seems to me that this article is just sour grapes.

to fill out to determine if his behaviors were ADD or ADHD behaviors. My son's teachers were only wanting him to have precisely what he needs diagnostically so he could concentrate better, learn more, and interact with others more appropriately.

People only care about winners and losers. They don't care about the details. So, a SAT score stands by itself. How the person got there isn't much of an issue.

I'm seeing more and more universities list the SATs as "optional" rather than "required".

have given her right arm for extra time on the SATs. She's brilliant, but for some reason timed tests turn her into a ball of quivering mush.

it's very real and should be accommodated like any other disability.

Reflecting those who had unlimited time to finish the test. That's the only way to make it fair to those who don't game the system.

Students with disbilities have an established diagnosis. Without accomodations, no matter how smart they are, they can be left out of work and society. Disabilities maginify themselves in many ways. Intelligence and ability is not determined by timed school tests in all work place life.

I would think that "learning disabled" label isn't something you'd want on your kid's record for the future. No matter what advantage it gives you on your test scores.

These tests are made by people who want to make $$$$$. Let me sell you a test that will measure your child's intelligence and likelihood to succeed in college. BUT, WAIT, this test, it's hard, so let me SELL you a preparatory class to ensure you child has the best possible chance on this thing. You know what, while we are at it, let me sell you some preperatory TESTS so your child knows the drill on test day. You can afford it. What? Your child is just in sixth grade. FANTASTIC! WE HAVE YEARS TO PREPARE!

At one time, standardized testing had a real world place. Like everything from hunting to pickup trucks, the rich have fucked it up and turned it into a game no one else can afford.

:sarcasm:

You can have a f'ing week and if you don't know it, you don't know it.

I personally have no problem taking tests - I'm usually the one that finishes early, turns the test in and gets a high grade, but I have sympathy for people that have a hard time taking tests.

My problems are with ADHD during lectures - I have a hard time focusing and listening, so I have to do things like sitting in front, taking notes obsessively, that sort of thing so I don't miss out on important concepts.