Anybody else feel as though if we lose this union fight it's all over?

Unions are to the democratic party what christian fundamentalists are to the republican party. Banning collective bargaining rights is to the left what banning bibles is to the right. I feel like if we lose this fight, we'll never recover.

This may be a little optimistic, but this might be to the right wing what the 60's were to the left.

Right now the teabaggers are making some great(evil) strides, but in the long term they very well may be the next "dirty hippies" and all of the ideas associated with them will become untenable for a public figure to hold for a couple of decades.

You can't fight a political full-court press by focusing on one issue. Meanwhile, the Republicans are rolling back decades of legislation in all areas.

It doesn't mean we don't fight... but it's not the ONLY one.

Worried about it very much.

We CANNOT lose this. We don't have a choice. We HAVE TO win.

we lost NAFTA and GATT to a "Democrat"

Those put us where we're at - fighting for crumbs.

Then Obama would be going all Terry Schiavo (sp?) on this shit.

Face it... the DLC thinkers at the top of the Democratic Policy Machine have decided that they can win elections without having to be bothered with those smelly/whiny union people. They're chasing the middle managers votes by talking shit about and selling out the union folks that the middle managers are charged with keeping in line. And all the while they're participating whole heartedly in efforts to outsource jobs where it will help the corporate bottom-lines.

Google "Hillary Clinton supports outsourcing". You'll get all sorts of fun stuff, including: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/07/AR2007090702780.html (Unions Press Clinton on Outsourcing Of U.S. Jobs)

I don't recall George W or his ilk ever doing any "outsourcing" of Jeebus (I suppose the equivalent would be to start enforcing separation of Church and State provisions, and a cessation of government funding of churchie-activities like proselytizing in Africa...)

If this is lost, it will be bad... but I'd be interested to see examples of Democrats who haven't sold out the unions (ahh, I suddenly hear echoes of the DUer cry: "you are not the base"...) Imagine what it would do to the Democratic party if members only voted for candidates who supported unions?

Half the party in place now would lose their jobs... and I'm not sure Obama wouldn't be one of them.

:patriot:

"Until some gang succeeds in putting the world in a strait jacket, its definition is possibility."

~ Ralph Ellison


(And that, it must be noted, was the conclusion of an invisible man.)

It's more than just Unions. We win and it will galvanize Americans everywhere that are beyond being merely pissed off. We win and people will believe we can win other battles. We're lucky we have a real doofus like Walker as an opponent. His 'fireside chat' tonight was a pathetic dishonest spectacle of someone who doesn't have a clue and doesn't seem to give a damn that he doesn't have a clue.

In general I think the left has done a terrible job of picking it's ideological battle grounds.

At long last I think we've found "good ground" for a fight and found exactly the right moment to stand up. I'm really tired of surrendering hard won gains without any resistance and something in the public mood seems to have changed suddenly to reflect the same thing.

Even if the people lose in Wisconsin I think the rest of us have finally gotten our voice back. Republican governors following suit will face more resistance with every step and the harder they try the greater the backlash will be.

Many thought the spirit of Stéphane Hessel's "Indignez-vous!" could never catch on in the US but the people of Wisconsin have proven otherwise. There is a limit to how far americans can be pushed in the name of neoliberal ideology.

Yes, the opportunity for a peaceful solution will have passed

I think Walker is just going to wait them out (or pass it under a non-fiscal bill that doesn't require a 3/5 quorum).

It will probably be at least 2013 before this damage can reversed.

I hope they win, but a win in WI does not mean that we do not still have a right-wing country from sea to shining sea.
If you are asking, will WI revitalize a nation-wide union movement, or a nation-wide progressive movement?

No.

I hope they win, but a win in WI does not mean that we do not still have a right-wing country from sea to shining sea.
If you are asking, will WI revitalize a nation-wide union movement, or a nation-wide progressive movement?

No.

I hope they win, but a win in WI does not mean that we do not still have a right-wing country from sea to shining sea.
If you are asking, will WI revitalize a nation-wide union movement, or a nation-wide progressive movement?

No.

it's never "all over."

But that's a potentially very nasty fight, nastier even than lawmakers needing to flee the state.

(although he was speaking after the Allies had just booted Hitler out of North Africa)

"This is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it may be the end of the beginning."

Sorry, but are you talking about the Haymarket bombing in the 1890's, where three anarchists where executed, with absolutely no evidence, for setting off a bomb in the Haymarket labor strike? I'm confused.

Fuck Walker!
Fuck Kasich!
Fuck Christie!

My grandfather got the shit beat out of him in the 1930s trying to stay union.
My dad got into several scrapes and was fired several times for trying to begin a union.
I can carry a big stick and talk softly, too!!!!

:shakes head: Thank the goddess the 60's activists didn't think that way. "Oh, well, we didn't get out of Viet Nam with one protest, let's all just throw up our hands, give up and go home." :eyes:

" Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!"

John Belushi

But if we do lose this fight, the struggle is likely to get violent.

Things tend to escalate when the economy take a dive and nobody at the top looks like they're affected.

I'm in Ohio, and even though I'm pretty much certain that SB 5 will pass, I know that doesn't mean the fight is over. Because anti-SB 5 people compromise a MASSIVE majority here in Ohio. And guess what will happen to all the Republican Senators who ignored their constituencies and voted for this bill anyway. Come Election Day (whether that day is in 2011, 2012, 2014, whatever), they're going right out on their cans. Democrats will regain control of the Ohio Legislature very soon. And their first order of business should be repealing SB 5.

So no, it's not all over. It's just going to have to be about treading water and weathering the storm until we can get this P.O.S. bill repealed, and the P.O.S. Republicans who voted for it out of office.

and all the more reason to ramp up the fight. We didn't have collective bargaining at one time but we got it, we can do that again, and more.