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Anybody who believes a "no-fly zone" is all it would take, I have some Bernie Madoff stocks to sell

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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 06:42 PM
Original message
Anybody who believes a "no-fly zone" is all it would take, I have some Bernie Madoff stocks to sell
Didn't work in Panama. Didn't work in Kuwait. Didn't work in Kosovo. Didn't work in Iraq. Didn't work in Afghanistan. Eventually, you reach the point where air support isn't sufficient, and you have to commit ground forces to achieve your goals. We saw just how much of a cakewalk it was to get Saddam, didn't we.

But maybe, just maybe, this time it would be different.

:sarcasm:
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 06:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. The Libyans are adamant,
Edited on Mon Mar-07-11 06:48 PM by tabatha
they want a no-fly zone. They do not want boots on the ground. The US does not want boots on the ground.

Reagan had a no-fly zone over Libya. Were there ever troops on the ground? Nope.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Reagan wasn't trying to oust Gadhaffi either
Yes, Reagan wanted to kill him, but he wasn't trying to remove him from power. It's much more difficult to remove someone from power if they're as entrenched as Gadhaffi is.
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fittosurvive Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
8. Yes, we have so much money and I'm sure moving a couple of carriers
and some jets into the area wouldn't cost that much.

Are you kidding me? No way!
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #1
22. Give the rebels advanced anti-aircraft devices like we gave to the Afghans...
during the Soviet occupation in the 1980's. That worked fairly well.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. Stingers are probably the most dangerous weapon
one man can carry - bringing down a 747 from 5 miles away is a piece of cake.

Not sure we want to pass those around in Libya.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. We handed 'em out like candy in Afghanistan...lol.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 06:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's actually quite a bit different this time.
* Mi-24 helicopter gunships are holding the line on rebels advancing on Tripoli.
* Unlike Iraq, a significant part of the military has revolted and is actively engaged in overthrowing Ghadafi.

It's either a no-fly zone and the chance of a bloody slaughter, or the certainty of a bloody slaughter.
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StarburstClock Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. That's it? No other options exist in all of mankind's wisdom?
How about some rhetoric from the U.S. that we will remove Gaddafi if he doesn't get the hell out and stop killing people? How about a few hundred missile strikes to send the message? How about we pull troops from Iraq and/or Afghanistan and move them to Libya? How about 5 or 10 bunker busters dropped near Gaddafi?

The options are endless as bloody slaughter is already occurring.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. No, but a no-fly zone is the best option.
* Mobilizing would take weeks. There is no time to "move" the troops to Libya.
* Libyan rebels have said they don't want troops on the ground.
* A few hundred missile strikes would kill more people than they would save.
* If you know exactly where Ghadafi is so we can drop bombs near him, please inform US intel. Very likely they don't.
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StarburstClock Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. OK, you know what U.S. intel knows?
It's basic logic that before bombing a target the target's location would be identified. Bye.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. Ah...you made the assumption.
I refuted it.
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Sonoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Where does sovereignty fit in?
We have nothing to do with internal affairs in Libya, and no justification for any act of war.

Sonoman
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. It would have to be under the auspices of the UN. nt
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fittosurvive Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
16. How about this...?
We sit back and watch this thing for a while and try to figure out who these guys are.
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Vinnie From Indy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. These posts are always amusing
The classic straw man argument is always proceeded with "anybody that thinks" or something similar. As with these types of posts, the OP rarely offers a shred of evidence that "anyone" actually belives (insert straw man) nor is there ever a link to "anyone" that believes (insert straw man).

The fact is that a "no-fly" might be helpful in this situation. It certainly might save lives and I think "anybody" can see that!

Cheers!
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markpkessinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #5
23. Gates is right, though...
...in asserting that a "no fly zone" starts with bombarding Libya's air defenses. Kerry's assertion that we can merely crater a few runways is a bit disingenuous, because that still means a bombardment. It's important to be honest with ourselves about exactly what we're talking about here.
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lib2DaBone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:03 PM
Response to Original message
7. Didn't the Iraq war start with a no-fly zone? We have 3 wars going on now...
Iraq... Afghanistan and the soon to be open-shooting war with Pakistan. (which could go nuclear)

Now.. they want to start another war in Libya? Nuts... absolutely nuts. Where are the anti-war protesters in the U.S.? crickets......
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. Yes, but this one didn't.
This revolt began internally, and has popular support.
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FSogol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
10. We'll be treated as liberators!
:rofl: Stupid NeoCons.
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fittosurvive Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
12. What surprised me most is that Kerry and McCain are leading the charge.
You would figure that people who have military experience would give this idea some deliberate consideration...

And then reject it completely!
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. Maybe there's a reason. nt
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fittosurvive Donating Member (538 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Yeah, McCain probably wants to fly some of the sorties himself and
Edited on Mon Mar-07-11 07:25 PM by fittosurvive
that chia pet Kerry has on his head must be growing into his brain.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. LOL I hope I have a chia pet like Kerry's when I'm his age nt
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LawnKorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 08:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. There are some people who would very much like to see a no fly zone over Libya
First up would be Lockheed Martin

Next would be United Technologies / Pratt & Whitney.

Don't forget General Electric Aviation and Rolls-Royce.

All of the defense contractor would just love to sell more engines and aircraft parts to the Government as the United States wears out its aircraft at an accelerated rate pursuing an impossible to win military action. For defense contractors, conflict just keeps the gravy train rolling.
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. The Libyans who are getting pounded by 30mm cannon fire
might appreciate it too.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. How long before a couple of errant bombs and missiles turns them against us?
What happens when we accidentally bomb a funeral, childrens' nursery, etc? How long do you think it would take for this "support" to turn against us?
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wtmusic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You're comparing to Iraq and Afghanistan
and it's an entirely different situation. This is not retribution, this is not resource-driven. We should only participate as the result of a UN mandate, but they desperately need help. To do nothing is to participate in the slaughter.
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Hugabear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. It's an entirely appropriate comparison
In order to maintain a no-fly zone, you have to take out anti-aircraft positions, as well as deal with any threats that may pop up (ie government forces or loyal groups firing on UN/NATO planes). We've often seen how easy it is for even smart bombs to miss their targets, or for the targets to be misidentified. I'm just saying that it probably wouldn't take very many of these misses, for civilian casualties to start mounting, and popular sentiment will start to shift against us.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
24. In order to make the no-fly zone effective and safe for our aircraft, we
would have to take out the anti-aircraft guns and missile batteries that will try to shoot down our planes. Of course, we would have to shoot down any Libyan aircraft that takes off. Do we bomb the aircraft on the ground too? The runways? What happens if/when one of our planes gets shot down and the pilot(s) get captured? Do we mount a rescue? That would mean troops on the ground...

A no fly zone is a half measure that gets us involved but enough not to determine an outcome.
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Modern_Matthew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Mar-07-11 09:47 PM
Response to Original message
25. There shouldn't even be a debate on what option to take. NOTHING is the only decent one. nt
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