California fears Japan nuclear leak

There are DU members who reside in California, many with family and children, myself included. This crisis is of great concern to us. Please be respectful of that and just stay away if you can't control yourself on this subject. You know who you are.

CALIFORNIA is closely monitoring efforts to contain leaks from a quake-damaged Japanese nuclear plant, a spokesman said on Saturday, as experts said radiation could be blown out across the Pacific.

While officials downplayed any immediate danger, the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission deployed two experts to Japan, where the Fukushima plant was rocked by a large explosion earlier in the day in the aftermath of Japan's strongest-ever earthquake.

Read more:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/special-reports/california-fears-japan-nuclear-leak/story-fn7zkbgs-1226020574227

300 very much worst case scenario... (and in that... yes Iodine would be proper)... we are FAR FROM THAT POINT.

but it is good to be aware and prepared.

That's a mega high dose for a place thousands of miles away.

Worst case, we get that thing sending a plume into the sky, it gets to go down exponentially.

right now, I can only sit and watch and go about my day. If I could do something to make this right I would put on my cape and go. I pray for the wisdom and talents of every brave person battling this and all the people caught at ground zero to be strong. As for me? It will find me and I will do my best. God help us all.

amazing powers of inductive reasoning onto others. Good luck Cali, I hope this all turns out to be localized and controllable.

You made me smile. Thanks for the good thoughts.:)

'sunshine brigade'! :rofl:

:rofl:

(hug)

and soon. :hug:

:yoiks:

Despite what some people here may think.

And I will continue to look for information. And I will post it if it concerns us. Our best defense in this crisis is valid, up-to-date information.

Californians have every right to be very concerned with the Japanese nuclear situation...and be concerned about the future with those two plants.

on sand, and on the FAULT, yes, the actual fault.

A plant along the coast of the Pacific Northwest subduction zone is a time bomb.

and drive past it I notice some kind of crap on my windshield. x(

is still up and running. I am only 20 miles from the plant. That is a stretch of beach I don't often even drive by. It's just plain frightening.

http://www.sce.com/PowerandEnvironment/PowerGeneration/SanOnofreNuclearGeneratingStation/OnlinePlantTour/default.htm

IMO it would put your mind more at ease.

Re: hysteria, it's useful to remember that government officials usually downplay disaster and the media overplay it.

The truth is usually somewhere in the middle.

put my mind more at ease. I find it hard to believe you actually just made that assumption about me. I only manage to live with it by putting it out of my mind.

I'm not completely ignorant of the technology and I'm not one of those people who thinks "it could never happen to me". I believe a mega quake is in our near future and have absolutely no fantasy about the plant standing up to it.

Seeing it actually in operation is pretty amazing, I went on the tour last spring. Yes, a quake is in our future, near or not, but it's important to remember that the quake in Japan is the largest in 1,200 years. There may very well be deaths that result from this, but as of right now there are exactly zero.

What do you think sells more newspapers, gets more viewers, gets more website hits - news that the crisis is being dealt with, or portrayals of nightmare scenarios which in truth have a small chance of occurring?

I'm not buying your crap. The chances of a meltdown in Japan are more than small right now, no matter how much you like to act all knowing. You are just the person I asked (nicely) to stay off this thread.

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sand... large quake... not a thing I want to consider.

I am concerned. We are able in the late 80's to turn off our nuclear plant at Rancho Seco with a special referendum.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,957975,00.html

In all the decades of the nation's fuming debate over nuclear power, opponents had never spoken with such indubitable authority as Sacramento voters did last week. They became the first ever to vote, by a solid 53.4%, to shut down a functioning nuclear power plant. The decision, in a special referendum, put an end to the operations of the 15-year-old Rancho Seco facility owned by the Sacramento Municipal Utility District. Within twelve hours after the polls closed, SMUD directors, who had pledged in advance to abide by the decision, had started shutting down the plant 25 miles southeast of California's capital city.

Even faster than that, news of the vote by 40% of Sacramento's electorate spread fresh hope among the opponents of nuclear power all over the U.S. The development countered a bleak mood stirred up among antinukers recently by two Nuclear Regulatory Commission actions. In the first, the NRC issued an operating permit to New York's Shoreham nuclear power plant, though its owner, the Long Island Lighting Co., had agreed to dismantle it. Then the NRC decided to permit a limited go-ahead for the controversial Seabrook, N.H., nuclear power plant. Thousands of activists demonstrated against the start of Seabrook's low-power tests (734 were arrested) on the very weekend before the Sacramento vote. By its effectiveness alone, the referendum became the most potent demonstration ever against nuclear power. What made it more potent still was the unusual nature of the campaign against Rancho Seco.

snip

I would like to start some kind of local campaign to get San Onofre shut down. (I live 20 miles from it.) Being in the red part of the state might make it more difficult but it would be worth pursuing. I've heard there is something like an 85% chance of a mega quake hitting us here in the next 30 years.

my mind and not dwell on my fears. :scared:

I don't want to think about it either. But I want to get a head start on any plan of action that may become necessary.

Here's a :hug: for you, Raine.

Back at you! :hug:

as a child. Fire dept would hose our house down covered with pink dust after tests in 50's Survived that so not reacting yet.

And what testing?

wouldn't call it a "city" ..still a one horse town.

I am just a few miles off the coast.

This risk came up over dinner last night. I had not even considered it.

Sonoman

Chernobyl? I think that's a point of reference, for a lot of us, that instills concern.

I am almost old enough to remember Edison.

Sonoman

I'm supposed to know how old you are, how? I don't believe our profiles include that sort of information.

Had it been built, you would probably keep a stock of duct tape and plastic sheathing on hand. I remember all the news stories about that hairbrained idea and realize now, it may have the beginning of the anti-nuclear power movement in America. Sonoma county has always been ahead of the curve.

I do not understand what is happening with the plant.

Is radiation being leaked into the air? I keep seeing conflicting posts, some say no worries, others are very worried. I tend to be on the worry side condering chernobyl... but I'd like to be more informed on the issue.

Can anyone explain this to me like a two year old?

The reactor is a boiling water reactor, which means that it boils water which goes on to turn turbines before being cooled by a heat exchanger. The core (rods) should always be covered with water that is flowing.

In this case, two things happened -

One, the water boiled off enough to raise the pressure (steam pressure) in the steel containment vessel high enough that the workers need to vent some steam to the atmosphere. Normally this steam would only have Tritium (hydrogen atom with two neutrons) as a radioactive component due to neutron radiation from the reaction. This releases a low amount of radiation that quickly disperses. This steam also contains hydrogen (including tritium) which in this case ignited in the space between the vessel and the outer building.

Two, the core became exposed when the water got too low and the rods split open from intense heat. The casing around the "pellets" of uranium has split open and the pellets melted. This damages the core and runs the risk that the normally rigid uranium rods could flow down and breach the steel containment vessel. This also releases the fission products (what the uranium split into) like Cesium into the remaining water/steam mix. This is why there is now cesium traces in the vented gas.

I appreciate your explanation.

Question: is this anything compared to chernobyl?

Thank you so much for your time expaining this to me. :)

Chernobyl blew the containment vessel (the "tank" with the core) open from steam pressure and the structure surrounding was basically a warehouse structure. The fire from the intense heat then spread radiation into the atmosphere through the smoke.

Western plants place the containment vessel inside of a containment building, which is often made of reinforced concrete a few feet thick. This would serve to contain radiation from a failure of the primary pressure containing vessel.

At this point, I'm am uncertain of the plant design. An outer building was destroyed in an explosion, but I don't know if that was the containment building or a larger superstructure surrounding both. I lean toward the latter, but am not certain. If it was the containment building, then there is a Chernobyl risk since a failure of vessel would release to the atmosphere.

Right now, I hope the salt water and boric acid (a neutron absorber that slows the reaction) does the trick and ends this for reactor #1.

I'm hoping that all is okay.

Thank you for teaching me, this is why I love DU.

You may notice there are two competing designs of reactors. Boiling water reactors versus pressurized water reactors.

PWR - notice there is a second loop that has no contact with the core


BWR - The steam and water has contact with the core.

The little red blocks on the left are the nuclear fuel assemblies (uranium) that generate heat. The yellow water pipes are the primary loop. They take heat away from the core and pass it to the secondary loop (blue) which is used to drive the turbines on the right.

The quake has possibly cracked the primary loop, so radioactive steam is spraying out into the containment vessel (big gray shell). Because the shell is airtight, pressure eventually builds up, and if it gets bad enough it will rupture. There is a safety valve on top which they can use to relieve pressure, but by doing so they release radioactive steam into the atmosphere.

Since then, the building around the steel containment shell blew up, so we can assume everything on the right side of this image is toast. That means pipes going directly into the containment shell have been broken off. Water from the primary loop has probably contaminated the secondary loop (another leak?) resulting in the cesium¹³⁷ that has been detected. Have they sealed the pipes? Are they still pumping seawater into them to cool the core? :shrug:

Good graphic.

I am really trying to understand this. Thank you so much.

There is no self contained primary loop with steam generators. The AP1000 is a Pressurized water design and the water around the core does not boil. It heats up and transfers it heat to the steam generators (#2) of your figure.

That would account for water leaking directly from the core, and associated radiation release.

But a PWR could do it as well. The primary water loop is under pressure to keep the boiling point very high (~500 F), but a break in the primary loop could result in a flash boil.

Basically there is also a discharge system. They feed water into the core and then bleed off steam to remove heat. It's possible that there isn't any breach to primary containment, the fuel rods have partially melted, and for there to be a radiological release. Basically you get a buckled or melted fuel assembly, that increases the CDFPA (Charged Disc Fission Product Activity) levels in the coolant, then you discharge some of the coolant as steam into a vented tank inside the containment building. In order to insure that there isn't a serious over pressure event they will have to continue some venting, which means there will be some atmospheric release, but it's possible that the actual primary system is still intact, and so once they complete venting they will stop putting contaminants into the air. There is a lot of hysteria over radiation ever since three mile, but we were dumping this stuff into the air pretty regularly a while ago (50's, 60's). Above ground US nuclear tests spread contamination all over the Eastern seaboard. Chinese nuclear weapons testing in Sinkiang spread fallout all over the US. You don't want to have this stuff going on, but a little bit isn't the end of the world either.

that send water to cool at least 3 Japanese nuclear power plants (and possibly 7 total at risk) went down in the earthquake. The plants went to backup battery power. That power ran out. There was an explosion in one plant that blew off the containment dome. (This may have occurred during the earthquake.) That plant may be partially in meltdown, leaking nuclear fuel into the neighborhood. They have gone to a last resort procedure on that plant--pumping sea water onto the plant to try to stop the meltdown. Meltdown would mean a nuclear explosion that would release nuclear material into the atmosphere and I believe the wind is inland-blowing, so it might contaminate parts of Japan. (It could also drift across the Pacific to the west coast here.) Meanwhile, similar problems have developed in two other plants and there may be more at risk. (One of these contains a particularly dangerous kind of nuclear fuel.) About a dozen people have already been killed, one way or another, in the nuke plants, and I just read that some hundreds of people in the area have suffered radiation poisoning.

A 9.0 earthquake is a BIG earthquake. It moved the island of Japan 8 feet! Italian scientists are reporting that it moved the Earth's axis itself four inches! A lot of infrastructure in Japan is in ruins, from both the huge earthquake and the following huge tsunami. Roads, bridges, communications, travel all affected--making the crisis at the nuclear plants even more difficult. Huge evacuations are occurring in the vicinity of the nuke plants. Hundreds of thousands of people are being moved--in these already disastrous conditions.

Worst case scenario, if multiple meltdowns occur--Japan could become a waste land. And anybody downwind of Japan (California and other regions) could get a dose of wind-blown radiation--as occurred thousands of miles away from Chernoybl.

I am giving you my UNKNOWLEDGEABLE impressions from reading a bunch of news reports and DU comments. I don't understand it all, and reports are conflicting and confusing. (For instance, I don't understand what electricity and pumps they are using to pump sea water--why those are working, and the normal cooling systems aren't.) (I do understand, though, that use of sea water means that the plants are finished--they will never be operable again. This is an indication of how serious the situation is. They are using last resort measures.) Some reports say meltdown was averted at the first plant (the one where the explosion occurred). Some say that while the containment dome blew up (from a hydrogen buildup?), the dome containing the actual reactor was in tact. Other reports say the first plant is in partial meltdown (I don't know what that means). And recent reports say that nuclear fuel has leaked and that at least two more (and possibly 7) nuclear plants are suffering failures of their cooling systems.

The good news: Japan has been extraordinarily vigilant about disaster preparedness. If they can stop these meltdowns, they will. They have the best earthquake and tsunami preparedness in the world and I can only presume that this extends to their nuclear power facilities. Their problem is that they've been hit with two huge disasters at once--the biggest earthquake and biggest tsunami in centuries. And apparently these hit the nuke plants in just the wrong ways, to disable certain systems. We can just hope and pray, at this point, that their last resort systems work and the people working to avert this third disaster are successful.

I am concerned as well.I am not flipping out but after my "schooling" i do believe we may have a reason for concern.

I hope that things don't go epic.

Thank you for your education. It's an eye opener for sure!

the people who are dealing with this potential horrendous disaster. They must be feeling panicked and crazy and exhausted and distraught. Whatever I may think of the decision to place nuke plants in heavily populated areas in earthquake-prone Japan, it is not their fault, and, even if it is--although the decisions were mostly made long ago--I pray for their mindfulness, calm, courage and ingenuity and I send them these thoughts. I cannot imagine the burden they are bearing at this moment. Please, everyone, send them strength!

Just a few weeks ago, I watched the movie, "K19 The Widowmaker," the true story a meltdown on Russia's flagship nuclear submarine in the 1960s. The movie stars Harrison Ford and Liam Neeson. It is a heartbreaking story of the crew's efforts to avert not just a meltdown and their own deaths, but the deaths of millions since their disaster almost triggered a nuclear war with the U.S. There were amazing heroes in this story whose actions were not known until decades later. So I am sensitized to the plight of those who, for whatever reason, find themselves dealing with this most dangerous and lethal of man-made devices. Again, whatever we think of the issues, we must first think of the people, and the excruciating dilemmas that this power puts people into. Our lives depend on others being steadfast, skilled, quick-thinking and full of courage when a meltdown is occurring. And, right now, millions of people are at immediate risk. Pray, pray for their courage and strength! Pray they do not fail! Pray that they save their people and any others of us at any risk!

:grouphug: :grouphug: :grouphug:

before much of the discussion about fallout had started, stating that I hoped the US was doing all they could to help. It should be the number one concern globally, imo.

You are right about the people who risk their lives to protect the rest of us. I hope they succeed and remain safe. I hope the Obama administration is offering them every possible amount of support.

OLYMPIA, Wash. - The state Department of Health is monitoring the nuclear emergencies triggered by a catastrophic earthquake and tsunami in Japan, but do not expect health risks here in Washington, officials said.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/117860469.html

Keeping my fingers crossed for a happy ending to this.

That's not so bad as the injured ones, because the injured ones you have to do everything you can for.

Truth to tell, I'd ban private automobiles.

Yep, I'm in California, and I'm more worried about what we'll do when our big quake hits.

After seeing how the USA handled Katrina I don't think we'll fare as well as the Japanese.

We'll probably call hungry and desperate people "looters" and shoot them.

So far as I can tell, the nuclear engineers and techs in Japan are holding the lid on. But it's got to be horrible for them, especially if they have friends and family unaccounted for.

Things would have to really go very pear-shaped for the Plume to get to CA. With that said, the way the info is coming from officials, it does seen that they are (we are) fucked possibly... I have been to and worked in Japan a dozen times over the years and sorry, they ARE NOT GOOD at 'on the fly' stuff. Whatever prejudice I have is work-wise only, been there with them and their "mind set'!!! I hope they get it together.

from what i have heard from some.

why shouldnt those closest be concerned and get informed.

why would we expect or want anything less

I think most of our members feel the same.

That means a lot.

the entire West Coast would be in the way of anything coming on the jet stream, and the northern slip of CA, Oregon and So. Washington get it first. There are many DU members who reside in Oregon and Washington, as well as Alaska and British Columbia. Myself and my family included.

I kid but sometimes I swear Oregon is just Northern Cal or South Seattle

My apologies. Of course, I've been thinking of the entire West Coast. The article was about California, so I stuck to the state. There is a post about Washington up thread that reports little concern. I was more encouraged by California's reaction than theirs. I want every area looking into this and measuring air quality if it becomes necessary so we can be advised about keeping our families safe. :hug:

I hope you forgive me.

married to a japanese, spent 3 years living & working there and ten years working primarily with japanese

i am told i should not comment on this thread because californians are very worried about possible radiation coming their way.

i'm so sorry for their worry. ki o tsukete kudasai.

Fortunately the tsunami gave us a miss...



...but I need to check up on how Japan and Indonesia's meteorology are related.

to be living in when in comes to tsunamis. Hopefully the earth will calm down for a while.

Just sent my son an e-mail that if it melts down, she needs to fly to the east coast (where her parents and I live) for a couple of weeks.

I've been having. I would move the kids out of state if the conditions warranted it. I don't know that a few weeks would be enough, though. These are the things we will learn if the worst happens.

and no milk for a few months, or cheese.

Pay attention to the Pacific Winds...there are valleys in CA that could be safer than others

No sign of the containment dome being breached. Even if it were, we are 4,000 miles away.

http://www.stormsurfing.com/cgi/display_alt.cgi?a=npac_250

It's not a concern yet, but worth planning and watching, IMHO. I thought it would go faster, and it may well be worse than they are telling us too.

The distance between the US west coast and the US east coast is relatively trivial.

I'm not worried about it.