Here's a sobering picture I took in Madison today

into sources it goes

It's probably not that far from the truth, though. Wal*Mart practically exemplifies efficiency in the free market. We could only be so lucky to serve them.

Look at his posture.

if the teaching thing doesn't work out.

Something tells me that this future Walmart employee didn't choose to go to the rally nor write that sign.

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I hear ya.

And Duers are outraged. :shrug:

if people want to bring their kids to protest and indoctrinate them that is their right. I may disagree with their politics but by all means bringing one's children is fine by me.

It's fine by me too.

It is a way of life to bring your children along with you, to teach them the ways of the tribe. Once upon a time we brought our children along on the hunt of the great beast to provide food for the tribe. The hunt is a bit different today, stalked and fought for different reasons, but in the end we are all still animals and must teach our children the ways of the hunt.

I for one am a liberal that fights for the people because my parents taught me to do so. I'm proud my parents taught me to fight for the people, to stand with the people, and to march for the people. I'm proud to have been a part of it at a very young age with them.

Older children, not so much. They are old enough to understand some of what is going on and should be there, if only to offer support.

My daughter is almost eleven and I think she's old enough to understand what is happening. I would consider taking her, as long as it's a peaceful protest. Younger than her-shouldn't be at one. Protest that has a good chance of something going wrong? Shouldn't be there.

I almost took her to a few anti-war protests when she was younger and then realized she had no understanding. I was also worried about how some would act around her.

part of being a kid in the dappleganger household means you are subjected to ALL kinds of rights. ;)

one of the things I was most pissed off about the way my parents raised me

don't talk about the ugly truth that's out there every day in the real world

you leave home for the first time and it hits you right in the face cuz the real world aint going to pamper your baby

Teach them about the ugliness of the world, by all means. We are attempting to do so with our own children, for instance.

But don't hang signs on them and use them as cutesy slogan-bearers.

Unless, of course, you want the sign to say "My parents are more interested in using me to express their views than in letting me express my own."

How did he form those views? How do you know that they are his views? How do you know that he isn't simply parroting what his parents have said around him?

Don't get me wrong--it's a good view, but I'm not convinced that it's his. At least not yet.


And, as I posted above, the children at anti-choice rallies are famously impassioned about expressing their views.

is from the teachings of your parents?

If this were a child in a bread line with a sign hoping for food would you still feel children should not be brought into the argument?

my three year old has carried my union patch, she asked for it but didnt understand anything except that it was bright red. i tell her the red (communist) and black flag (anarchy) carrying people are our friends. Were i to do the same for my students it would be brainwashing, when i do it to my own child it is giving her a proper upbringing. When she becomes a teenager it will be her choice to come with me or not.

When I was 8, I wrote President Johnson with my opinion on what I felt at the time was a vulnerable reliance on the Suez Canal. It was my opinion, and had nothing to do with what my parents or teachers though. In fact, my parents first became aware I had written the letter when one appeared for me from the White House.

Kids (even 8 year olds) have eyes, ears and brains, and are aware of more than you might think. I will grant that in many cases their parents may have a strong influence on their world views, because (if they're any parent at all) they are still a huge part of their universe.

But aren't our views at any age shaped by who and what surrounds us and what we experience?

I'm not saying the kid in the picture definitely isn't being used for effect, but we can't know for sure if he is or not.

Depends entirely on the child. I have three sons, two of whom expressed political opinions by the second grade -- and not always agreeing with mommy. The middle child? Maybe when he's 30. I hold out hope.

that darn sign!! He is not old enough to be really informed of all that is going on. I say, bring him, let him see people standing up for their rights, but don't use him like that. I personally would not do that to my child.

and like my brother did when my mom took us.

I used every opportunity I got to "do that to my child", aka, teaching them to be active in their community.

It's personal to them. Very personal.

Otherwise, you're simply using them as advertising space.

Disney or Calvin Klein or a major league franchise?

Come on.

hmmmmmm!?!!?

The only "themed" clothing that my children wear are articles that they themselves have chosen.

Without any coaching, let your six-year-old child write your sign the next time you attend a rally. And only recite the slogans and political opinions that you've heard springing unbidden from your child's mouth.

If you truly respect the child's political views, then you'll have no problem doing this. Equal footing, after all.

A parent's job is to teach that kid how to live with people successfully, not to poll the kid on issues the kid can't even conceptualize.

And my six year old is in his thirties now. And still going out to demonstrations with me.

By all means, bring them to the rallies! Let them shout whatever slogans they see fit to shout! Let them draw on the sidewalks and make their own signs!

But once you hang your sign on the child, you are saying "my child is a vehicle for my political speech," and the child is subordinated to your views.

By your own assertion "the kid can't even conceptualize" the opinions that he or she is being required to wear. That's not teaching; it's exploitation.

So perfect.

We're so happy to adorn a child in corporate or sports (corporate) team logo without any worry in the world other than obscene cost, yet a sign about our rights (that's right, our fucking RIGHTS) becomes an outrage.

A sign about oppression, yeah that's fucked. A sign fighting (and in turn teaching about) fighting for our rights......

with me when CWA went out on strike. I didn't ask him if he wanted to go or if he agreed with me. I told him I needed to be on that line with my union. He was 6 and he was the loudest mouth there. lol

:toast:

with CWA (hubby is a member.) My youngest picked out his own sign for informational picketing: "Don't cut my Dad's Health Insurance."

My dad was a CWA member for years--very exciting at times, that's for sure! Good for you for bringing him along.

But having your child carry a sign that you wrote kind of defeats the purpose of the child carrying the sign. The kid looks like a pawn for the issue. That's all. No harm is being done to the child, I just think it discounts the message.

i do lots of things others won't around their kids. I take my girl to protests, smoke weed in front of her, spend hours playing legos because i have free time....

I had my three kids in Madison Saturday. They have been learning about the budget repair bill from both parents AND hearing our bias. We asked them to make their own signs with their own messages. This bill will hit my family so hard we will be trying to sell our home before we lose it. That is real for my kids. That is where their opinion comes from. My five year old wrote "stop hurting my family." My 8 year old wrote "Support my teachers because my dad is one." My 10 year old wrote "Invest in my future" We did have to boycott my son's first sign "Scott Walker stinks."

Hanging a sign on a kid to espouse a political view really is totally different from hanging a sign on a kid to espouse a political view.

:eyes:

Going on a podium and saying things in a loud voice to lots of people is totally different from going on a podium and saying things in a loud voice to lots of people.

:eyes:

So long as you agree with the sentiment expressed.

You're attempting, in a smarmy and ineffective way, to imply that I'm equating all speech as equally meritorious, when I've done no such thing. Instead--and this is the point that some in this threat seem unable to grasp--is that I find it objectionable when people draft their children into political service by hanging slogans on them.

I have no doubt that the child in the picture agreed to have a sign hung on him, but that's hardly the point. It's been correctly stated elsewhere in the thread that children lack the ability to grasp these complex issues, and if that's the case then it's simply inappropriate to turn them into slogan-bearers.


And here's the point that seems to be missed again and again and again: I'm not telling anyone to keep their kids at home. By all means bring them to the rally and let them shout and let them draft their own signs. But when you hang your sign on the child, you have decided that your views are more important than those of your child's.



Also, as much as I hate to invoke the bastardization of Godwin's law, reaching immediately for Hitler when trying to make an argument is equivalent to declaring that you don't actually know how to support your claim.

it is for her future and the future generations that i protest after all. my buddy's daughters are teenagers and they go on their own now, right up front while us old farts and toddlers are in the back. what am i supposed to do get a sitter for my kid? i would rather the sitter came to demonstrate.

to stand up for those values.

Or do you let them learn from the experience without drafting them into service as cute little mobile billboards?

I think it's a good education.

However, hanging signs on them is not giving them an education.


Can't imagine why this point is so hard for so many to grasp.

The conversation could have gone, "Do you want to carry your sign, or do you want a sandwich-board like in the old days?" or "If I hang it on you, your hands will be free" or "wear this, child, and don't talk back." My kids loved carrying signs.

that we should email to all our friends.

... but in reality he's probably thinking: "Jeez, I'd rather be home playing 'Call of Duty'."

He did "pose" a bit for effect, but that was all him.

no wonder T LaB liked you so much. :hug:

Teachers are going to need to work other jobs to keep their bills paid.

So my indoctrination in flag waving and patriotism started early on.
Later on when I marched against the war in Iraq, I wondered if he would feel the same way about me being in that parade!!

uneducated man is destroying so much in such a short amount of time...

I guess it's okay when we do it... :shrug:

Don't watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiHy2Oq2zzk&feature=related

Kids have been involved with this particular issue since day 1 because a LOT of school districts were closed the first week. Also, this is not as divided down the political line as the news would have you appear. This is ABOUT families. Not abortion, not gun rights, not "I don't like this politician". This is an attack on families.

How exactly does this union busting bill hurt a non public union worker of family?. I see how it hurts union families but non union families? I just dont see it

I am not your research assistant.

the non union families are hurt, then you have lost the argument. I can tell you exactly how the public sector unions are hurt by this in 1-2 sentences but I cant for the life of me understand how this affects the other Wisconsinites who are non union. Only explanation I can think of is cutting funding for the democratic party and loss of trickle down from union workers spending but since I dont believe in trickle down economics, I will ignore that argument.

Again, please tell me how this bill hurts non public sector union families?

http://theuptake.org/2011/02/24/how-governor-walkers-bill-affects-wisconsin-families/

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/02/28-4

In addition to all of that: Contract items like class size determinations, prep time allotments, educational assistant and specialist assignments, work schedules, provided teacher supplies and school calendars could all be affected and possibly hurt students' education via Walker's bill.

Oh, and tuition in universities will spike about 26%.

There's a lot at stake.

His budget might violate fed water regulations - another way he takes WI backward. http://host.madison.com/news/local/environment/article_380a8186-4db8-11e0-889a-001cc4c03286.html

And recycling:
http://www.dailycardinal.com/opinion/walker-s-budget-cuts-threaten-recycling-1.2102396

And our many many lakes:
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/environment/article_dc7e06ae-479e-11e0-ae5b-001cc4c002e0.html

http://monkeyswithcymbals.wordpress.com/2011/03/06/governor-walkers-budget-wisconsins-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/

Convinced yet? This is not just a union-busting issue. He's a monster.

the opening sentence says he is declaring war on the "majority", so it should be easy to pitch him and reverse this, if he is indeed doing this.

Walker started this week 7.

If th emajority oppose, then have the recall, and reverse the budget cuts. These are budget cuts, not payroll cuts. He can be out before most go into effect.

this is "democratic" underground, right ? Not the "some of us don't like the outcome so we'll rewrite the rules" underground. I take it you view the state legislators who fled the WI favorably, am I right ?

Who's rewriting what rules? And yes, the 14 Senators did exactly the right thing. The Senate doesn't have quorum without them and refused to negotiate. This isn't a dictatorship and if the people of WI so overwhelmingly supported the Republican agenda, they'd have quorum without them. Since they don't, they need to work together and negotiate. It's how democracy works.

running from their post when the odds were against them was cowardly. Stand, fight, argue, negotiate and then deal with the consequences (on both sides). There is a term "tyranny of the minority" that also applies.

In the end, these antics did nothig to advance the agenda. Running away was embarrassing

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a quorum supports the ability to have enough participation to run the session, and simply has nothing to do with the ned, right or willingness of anyone to negotiate. When people abandon their post, there is no opportunity to negotiate, by definition. By your logic, the ones who fled were the one abandoning the negotiation.

I stick with the opinion that they were an embarassment.

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Teacher with union backing: five classes (four in some middle schools), about 125 students, lots of writing and personalized attention for students.

Teacher with no union backing: six or seven classes, 180-200 students, not much writing and very little day-to-day personalized attention.

Which teacher would you want your kids to have?

I worked in Nevada, which is a right-to-work state, and when I left as a high school English teacher, I averaged 42 students in my classes. I had one American Lit class with 48, and when everyone showed up, we didn't have enough desks, so students sat on the floor.

How much writing do you think I assigned, knowing that I would have to read/evaluate it? I'm not saying I'm proud of it, I'm saying that teachers are human beings who can't work 22 hours a day.

My uncle died of black lung and my grand father died from injuries he received in the mines. I get the need for unions, but I just dont see the connection here. As for class sizes and number of classes, don't get me started. I have spent more time teaching my kids than I feel they receive in school due to stupid experimental curricula.

Is not enough desks the subject of collective bargaining ? Is that going to be eliminated, because I thought working conditions were still preserved under the new law.

Attack on Medicaid
Loss of Federal Transit Funds
Walker Refuses Rural Internet Funds
Budget might violate fed water regulations
Kills recycling
Lake protections take big hit
It decimates bus systems
Huge cuts to education (the poorest districts will suffer the most)
Cuts to local government with the aim of forcing them to cut salary and benefits for teachers
More pushing to defund Planned Parenthood
Huge increases to the state college tuition
Selling State Assets in No Bid Closed Contract

This is not just a union-busting bill. Not by a longshot.

it is the inefficient administration (school and union) that saps all the resources (in my opinion).

that making mine load the dishwasher is also exploitive as well.

:eyes:

He didn't write that sign and I seriously doubt that at this time in his life that he knows he wants to be a teacher.

Just sayin.

...many adults change careers, several times. So what?

Even if the kid wants to become something other than a teacher, without a good education he will have a hard time holding down any job -- even at WalMart.

I love the pic. I loved seeing all the families there yesterday.

I love your dismissal of the gripers. "Your concern is noted." Great.

kids are going to be affected just as much as anyone else from these disastrous policies. Only conservatives would want liberals/progressives NOT to get their youth involved.

for one thing, and for another, it casts a whole different family-oriented aura over the event. Just having the kids around brightens the whole atmosphere.

I suspect there is an evil mind developing under that furry little hat/

When I bring my kids to union rallies and anti-war marches, I make them make their own signs!

It's crazy, but true.

I was being sarcastic -- I can't keep my kids away from any political or activist things I do, and I am a huge proponent of getting kids involved in such things. No matter whose side it is, honestly.

Keep fighting the good fight! :toast:

Part of the deleted sub-thread, I think.

and even writing their own or telling me what they wanted the sign to say.
And god bless 'em, today they both have strong political awareness.

You were there, Nikki. You talked to the child. I believe what you say about his viewpoint and participation.

If you're going to call me out and put words in my mouth, at least make an effort to make them consistent with things that I've actually said.

I stated--correctly--that your testimony is insufficient, just as mine would be, if I'd taken a picture of somebody's kid in service of my agenda. The agenda may be noble, but that doesn't mean that any one person's account of it can be taken as inviolable truth.

In short, the nature of the situation--specifically, the very reasonable misgivings that many have expressed regarding the positioning of children at political rallies--necessarily demands a higher standard of verification than "believe me because I say so."


Now, someone is almost certain to make some reference to the Holocaust or some other monumental event recorded largely through the testimony of witnesses and survivors. To this I say: explain to me what that has to do with hanging a sign on a child at a political rally.

This kid can be a teacher! It's just that the Koch Bros. will dictate his worth as an employee of a Madison charter school. Geesh, this IS America, ya know!

(do I HAVE to put up the sarcasm smilie?)

are living on the street instead of speaking up for their rights on the street? This fight is much more personal than the others mentioned. There is even one state looking to repeal child labor laws.

the 180 day schedule but the $100K plus salary (more when he gets of age) might make the second choice worthwhile. It will all be about choices.

such as a child at a Tea Bag rally... THAT would be exploitation, because the future those fascist fruit loops are trying to create will eventually disenfranchise all workers, that includes today's kids.

If people like Walker have their way.. WalMart might be shooting too high.

Damn if that doesn't sum up this battle.

:wtf: :crazy:

Just sayin'.

of whoever hung that sign on him

I would be too, if I were a kid attending a political rally.
Maybe someday he'll appreciate the fact that he was there.