The direct words of a Libyan widow

A bright voice from Libya's darkness

"We just wanted our freedom, that's all we wanted, we didn't want power. Before, we could not do a single thing if it was not the way he wanted it.

All we wanted was freedom. All we wanted was to be free. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up.

We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Libya got liberated by anybody else.

If NATO didn't start moving when they did, I assure you, I assure you, half of Benghazi if not more would have been killed. If they stop helping us, we are going to be all killed because he has no mercy anymore."

http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2011/03/23/a_bright_voice_from_libyas_darkness

Go ahead, tear this apart. Tear me apart for posting it. I no longer care... I find I am caring more about the Libyan people than I do those in my own country anymore. They have heart and compassion... the US..not so much.

Ergo we cannot get out til Gaddafi is gone and then we have to make sure they have a stable government. How is this not Iraq all over again? Will we cut our services to the poor, the young (education), the sick because we spend all our funds saving everyone else but ourselves?

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Sad but true.

Empathy's a beotch, ain't it?

:cry:

The US voters can vote out those who are cutting services to the poor, and helping the rich.

If they are not voted out, then I am afraid the US is going to resemble the country of a ME despot.

In particular, it was helping the Kurds maintain their freedom in the north.

I'd be happy if a NFZ works as well in Libya as it did in Iraq.

Gaddafi can be gone through multiple scenarios. The question is will we want to take over and control the Country. That, in a nutshell was the problem in Iraq.

of their government. I have always been horrified at the things the world lets happen to people living under horrible leaders.

However, I will say, that it seems to me that when we do intervene, the reasons are often less than noble.

aka the Ambassadors daughter.

:sarcasm:

are buckets of gasoline.

suggests the possibility of stale mate.

I wish we had other tools at hand. For example, $50,000 for every one of Gaddafi's troops who surrenders his weapons at the border and leaves.

Or better yet, $50,000 for the first 10,000 of his troops who surrender.

somewhere to make sure they wern't terrorists? Might have to soften them up with a little gentle torture to get them to tell the truth first though.

:(
Great way to sum it up btw. :hi:

Truth is though that there are plenty of tools that can stop war, and we know full well that they work. Justice, effective representation in government, equitable distribution of wealth and land, freedom of speech and association, a high level of education, social justice and economic freedom (but not economic exploitation) - really all of those good progressive, democratic and socialist ideals stop wars. One thing those abstractions have in common is that power and authority is widely distributed. It makes a society slow to react and resilient when there's a problem, but that's what we want, slow and thoughtful.

There's also plenty of good historical and sociological research to back it up. Trouble is, those tools take decades, even generations, to work out the poison of old wars and exploitation and injustice from the social and political culture. Look how long it's taken to work out the poison of the Civil War. I might mention as well, that leadership is important along the way to firmly and instantly stamp out hate speech, or prevent concentrations of power from accumulating.

Even five years out from h-hour when hell breaks loose there are good tools, academics with good plans for conflict resolution, diplomats, agencies, international organizations, plenty, plenty. But time grows short and somebody needs to make serious compromises. Warning signs abound. Fundamental changes needed.

A year out or six months, well, hold your breath. At that point, historically, fate has usually been in the hands of a very few, because the core problem is a concentration of wealth, political, and social power, and it doesn't matter if they are clerics or capitalists, tyrants or presidents with emergency powers, or a military junta, that part just doesn't matter, but the concentration does. And ironically, it's probably the calm before the storm and people aren't paying heed or even paying attention.

Three months away -anything little thing can set it off. That concentrated power is bound to do something really, really dumb. And why wouldn't they? they're making all decisions by themselves. At the first sign of widespread protest or serious challenge, that concentration of power has to go. It's got to concede and breakup. Period. It's that last moment to avert.

And when they don't, and hell-hour arrives, OMG!, Breaking News, "We couldn't have known, didn't see it coming", lazy-assed reporters scramble for a map and the good ones grab their passports. "Blame the insurgents!" "It's just like 1776,1789,1803,1812,1848,1860,1898,1914,1933,1936,1939,1941,1946,1950,1961,1965,1990,2001,2003."

And hedgehog is stuck looking for tools other than gasoline. You might find some. There are some imaginative ones, you had the one about paying off soldiers, and historically there are good stories about mercenary armies switching sides during a battle and starting their own little bidding war. Maybe a trusted third party can referee. Maybe you can peel power away, layer by onion layer, like in Egypt or stand your ground by the millions, like the second war for Independence in India, but in the end, if that concentrated power remains, the war never goes away.

Anyway, sorry, sorry, for that long and not-asked-for rant to a one line post, but that's what you get for making me chuckle.

and for giving this woman a voice here.

:hug:

rec'd

Thank you.

Speechless...

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have). We don't and won't know when to stop our "intervention". An intervention will soon become an occupation. This is my problem in a nutshell.

Would that our own country were perfectly healthy, economically and physically, so that we could "aid" others. We aren't any more.

and adds nothing to our discussion.

It is possible for the OP to care a great deal for the Libyans in that war zone and to own that. It's possible for people on both sides of this debate to feel the pain of the widow in the OP.

But to turn around and invite personal attacks as if that's somehow virtuous, is an emotional manipulation and has little or nothing to add to our ongoing discussion on this issue except for bad feeling.

"Go ahead, tear this apart. Tear me apart for posting it. I no longer care... I find I am caring more about the Libyan people than I do those in my own country anymore. They have heart and compassion... the US..not so much."

Well said

I think it's because Obama is for helping the libyans.

:(

Cue the advisors. Then the ground troops. These folks decided that violent revolution was they way to go, but weren't prepared to actually carry it out. What happens when some of them decide they don't like being "helped"?

ever demanded that we all take to the streets. Violent revolutions rarely end up delivering what people originally wanted.

It became violent when Gaddafi unleashed violent retaliation for questioning and standing against him.

Sid

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And frankly could have been written by anyone. But assuming it is true it is just one woman's opinion.

One emotional letter does not represent the entire situation.

Do you think members of the "loyalist forces" don't have wives, some of which are widows too and may write a simlar emotional appeal? which of course would never be reported since we are supposed to believe that anyone who supports Gadaffi is universally "evil" and those who oppose are universally "good" ... I doesn't fit the narrative.

I am sorry but your emotions are being played. There is an absence of actual facts, and an abundance of blatant propaganda.

From Amy's headlines this morning: Gaddafi Forces Attack Rebels Amidst U.S.-Led Strikes

Snip

A doctor at a Misurata hospital told the Washington Post around 80 people have been killed since the U.N. Security Council authorized international intervention last week. The doctor says he has stopped counting the wounded, patients are being treated on the floor, and the hospital is running out of supplies. The doctor said, "This no-fly zone doesn’t mean anything to us because Gaddafi only had a few planes and they were doing nothing. We need a no-drive zone because it is tanks and snipers that are killing us."

http://www.democracynow.org/2011/3/23/headlines

Also from this morning:

No reports of Libyan civilian casualties- US admiral
WASHINGTON | Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:52pm EDT

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A top U.S. military officer involved in enforcing the U.N.-backed no-fly zone over Libya said on Wednesday he had no reports of civilian casualties caused by coalition forces.

"There have been no reports of civilian casualties. Our mission here is to protect the civilian populace and we choose our targets and plan our actions with that as a top priority," Rear Admiral Gerard Hueber told reporters by phone from the command ship USS Mount Whitney in the Mediterranean.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/23/us-libya-usa-casualties-idUSTRE72M64T20110323

And i wondered this:

If Misurata is completely under rebel control and populated almost entirely by anti Gadhaffi people, how can pro-Gadhaffi snipers exist on rooftops? especially near the hospital?

If the hospital is nearly out of medical supplies, why are we not airdropping them in as part of the UN mandate?

None of these stories really hold water and all incredibly slanted. I am sure there is a grain of truth in them as war always results in civilian casualties ON BOTH SIDES, but every story is incredibly slanted one way.

and to the comment about "no reports of civilian casualties" I would point out that Gadhaffi has claimed over 40... it's just that the narrative is that everything Gadhaffis says is a lie so his claim of civilian casualties actually means the opposite apparently...

So fine, if you don't accept those reports we know there were casualties from the attack on the rescuers of the downed pilots... one person at least is going to lose his leg. That makes the "top military officer" either an outright liar or colossally incompetent.

and to provide other viewpoints. Notice, the doctor doesn't seem to care who is shooting, he wants it to stop. The Admiral is simply wrong about casualties but since that is the view he wants to hold, it doesn't matter in the reporting -- the estimated numbers aren't given. Al Jazeera was reporting close to a hundred yesterday morning and about 1000 wounded.

You're right about the dehumanization of Gaddafi. Even Thom Hartmann is doing it, saying we shouldn't believe anything this "crazy tinpot dictator" says. Which is another way of saying, don't get between me and my preferred storyline.

But yes. Although I agree we should not automatically believe anything Gadhaffi (or his regime) claims until it is proven...

but by the same token, I don't automatically believe anything the allies or rebels say either... until proven or at least backed by REAL evidence.

I've learned from Iraqghanistan...

...when you're being shelled? They had a wall of explosions falling around them.

Once the US took out the shellers I believe they will have the snipers gone in due course.

Yes Misrata is a rebel stronghold.

That article is clearly dated. I don't know why progressives insist on posting outdated bullshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x725269

You might want to go unrec that... in the interest of equal time, you know.

If that is what you are implying. as a matter of fact I never "unrec" anything..

However since you ask that is an emotional appeal, and it hold little weight as Chernobyl and Japan are different and one womans pinion should dictate an entire nations policy.

However, I actually agree with her. I think the utility, Japan and even US media as underplayed the danger here immensely and I believe little of what I hear from them since everytime I read a report about the situation improving, it actually gets worse.

:crazy:

I know where you're coming from Bobbolink and if only your detractors would wade thru those months of journals (much of it eyewitness primary source material) perhaps they would understand where you are coming from.

I consider myself to be a raging pacifistic leftie, but I don't think we should stand idly by while people who dared to speak up non-violently (and they WERE non-violent until it became apparent that Gadaffi would kill them all for merely speaking out) were killed, especially when they have requested help. How soon we have forgotten the underground prisons in Benghazi, full of political prisoners and protesters who had been left locked in without food and water when Gadaffi fled. Children shot thru with large caliber ammo. There are pictures of those things if one has the stomach to look. In comparison there were no pics of Kuwait incubator babies from the single source who claimed it. Dox or GTFO.

I'm sure we will have our own moment here soon enough. And we will find that our esteemed democratic leaders will be just as ruthless in putting it down as Gaddaffi, mercs and all. After all the Kochs will be paying for it. People that rich and powerful do not go easy.

"My mind is made up....don't confuse me with facts"?

I think it fits here.

:cry:

:hi:

for all the Libyan people who are suffering so....for all people everywhere.

:cry:

K&R

began.

Her husband:

DUer joshcryer's words about his friend, Mo:
"Mohammed Nabbous, killed by Gaddafi's forces while trying to report on the massacre in Benghazi

I'm struggling to come up with something to say about this man. I was not aware of the Libyan uprising until I saw Mo's first report, begging for help, posted here on DU. I was stricken. Here was a man giving everything he had to explain a situation that clearly terrified him, I would not call him a coward in that moment, but you could see the fear in his eyes, and desperation in his voice. For 30 days Nabbous would spend many hours covering the uprising in Benghazi. For many nights I would go to sleep with the webcast of Benghazi live on my computer screen, looking to it occasionally to be sure it was still 'there.' Mo treated the chat room as if we were his friends, and in some way, we were. I never signed up to LiveStream to thank him for all his work and it seems somewhat shallow to do so now, given that I was a lurker for so long. Ever since I took over posting these threads "Libya Alhurra" has been linked as a source of information. It wasn't until last night, when I posted, and twitter posted on Mo's adventures out into Benghazi to try to determine the truth of the situation, that Mo's webchannel became a hit, over 2000 people were watching him stream live. This was curious to him because he'd done many reports like this in the past but he appeared somewhat bemused that the view count exploded as it did. Last night Mo became a star. This is a man who first started out with a webcast replete with fear and desperation finally overcoming that aspect of himself and losing that fear, to become someone who was a fighter for the resistance just as much as those who held the guns. Reporting on the front lines of Benghazi became his final act, and for that he should never, ever be forgotten. I'm so sorry Mo that I never got to know you better.

Mo leaves behind a wife who is with child."

But all of this is dismissed as "emotional manipulation". Such words of "peace".

geez.

If this is emotional manipulation- then may I always be able to be manipulated.

We can claim to care, but if we can learn about this person's life and dismissing it as "emotional manipulation" doesn't demonstrate that ability very well.

Thanks again Bobbolink.

May Mo's wife and unborn child be able to know the freedom he died seeking.

:cry:

after a NATO air raid.

Ideology and emotion blind people to the real reasons behind war.

Personally, I have room to care about everyone who loses someone to war and violence. And I know the real reasons for war - profit and dominance. And I hate those, and I am doing what I can against them and hope to do more in the future.

Caring is not a zero sum game, an either/or question. I have always been against the Afghanistan invasion and occupation. The day we started dropping bombs there is the day I started to hate my country, and all the bloodthirsty revenge hatred stuff going on then made me seriously hate my species. It's only recently that I've realized it may just be Americans who are that horrible, and that the people in other countries, like Libya, still have souls.

So yes - I can care and grieve with this Libyan widow, and the Afghani widows, and the Iraqi widows, and the American widows, and the people all over the world who've lost loved ones to violence and war. I am not blind.

I am human.

fuck the ghadaffi fans

You are an awesome person, and I am honored to have met you here on DU.

I've decided to just not listen to people who won't listen to the Libyans themselves. I think the American media is pushing this in a certain way and that's influencing the thoughts and feelings of the TV watchers. It's clear why the Libyans want the Libya state TV channel gone - I want our state media gone too.

And no, that doesn't mean I support the NFZ wholeheartedly or that I don't want to hear all the arguments. I just want to hear arguments that are informed and that take the Libyan viewpoint into account, not black and white illogical US-centric influenced and shaped by American state media arguments, like - omg why do you support war you horrible warmonger, why aren't you cheering for war in all these other places with atrocities, what about all the cuts here because it's totally Libya's fault that we're ruled by fascists and everything would be fine and they would give us all their money and we could roll around in milk and honey if they weren't doing a NFZ in Libya, etc.

Speaking of that - search Twitter using the hashtag #gaddaficrimes. Sounds like he's had 42 years to do what the Republicans want to do here, and Libya is our future if we're not careful. For instance - Gaddafi said that labor unions are for the weak. And he certainly has not been putting any money into Libya's infrastructure or education or anything like that.

I had fun going through and retweeting all of the ones that sounded like Republican policies. :) Psyops for the good!

people.

That is what is so wonderful... THIS time around, we have the means to listen to what the average people want. That is what makes this so different... we can choose to hear them!

This has been agonizing for me as well.... I have protested every war since my dirtyhippiecommiepinkobum days, plus protesting bomb-making companies and chasing the White Train. To find myself in this position has been a bit of a shock. But it is where I am. I have had to stretch my understanding, and that is a good thing. Exhausting, but a good thing!

Even at my advanced age and hair color, I can learn new things. And I am learning a lot from the Libyans!

:pals:

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Well, geeze, no wonder I react so strongly and negatively to sentiments like yours- and you're not the only one on this particular wavelength, I suspect.

I've been on DU a looooong time and I've seen people also do this over animals versus humans, too.

I'm sorry you feel like that. I think there's something going on which is much deeper- something beyond a discussion on the internet. But I'd just like to toss out the thought that if the worth of America and Americans is so reduced in your eyes in comparison to the pastiche impressionism of TV news which passes for a "relationship and understanding" of the "Libyan people"- please, go out and meet some more Americans! Unless you're from Libya, have spent time there or something like that, I'm not seeing the rationale behind the switch in emotional investment unless it's purely revolution and liberation by proxy.

PB

my disenchantment.

What I have seen in the last month and a half from Egypt and Libya is people who know how to pull together, and who take care of "the least of these".

What poor people get here is snark and/or ignored.

As your snarky post shows. Thank you for proving the point.

Not qualitatively.

PB

I will admit, I do not like the way we came into this without much thinking, or for that matter, much support from the French or Brits, but I will admit that there is much more reason to be in Libya than places like Iraq or Afghanistan where OUR HELP WAS NOT WANTED.

Furthermore, the fact Bobbolink is poor does not mean she cannot have an opinion. You do not need money to buy that, yet, no thanks to many so called liberals.

However, many of us still believe that the resolution of responsibility has important meaning that cannot be ignored, and that the Libyan people went about this the right way. The UN vote was historic, and also cannot be ignored.

Not all wars are the same, and this one is different in many important ways. So different that it is the only war in my personal history that not only do I agree with, but the only war I am NOT protesting. That is hugely significant to me and is indicative of what a painful decision this has been for me. To be derided as I have been I can only describe as cruel and NOT "peace".

REasonable people can disagree, and I very much appreciate your kind and supportive words to that effect.

Thank you. :yourock:

I've seen families of slaughtered men say similar things, like:

All we wanted was to live in peace. We have paid with our blood, with our families, with our men, and we're not going to give up.

We are still going to do that no matter what it takes, but we need help. We want to do this ourselves, but we don't have the weapons, the technology, the things we need. I don't want anyone to say that Mexico got saved by anybody else.

I sympathize with those in Libya. I also sympathize with the 36,000 families in Mexico who have lost loved ones over the last five years to the drug cartels because they have a corrupt president who looks the other way and probably gets paid to do so. And they are our neighbors yet we don't help them. We allow their corrupt leaders to tell us we can't arm our agents, to tell us we can't rid them of the drug plantations or bomb the homes of drug lords. We sit back and watch the people of Mexico suffer every day. Where is our "humanitarian" military intervention with our own neighbors? See, I just don't buy that our intervention in Libya is humanitarian motivated. The drug lords in Mexico have no heart or compassion, either.

Have the widows in Mexico petitioned the UN for weeks to establish a no fly zone?