If you distrust the US version of Libyan events, I hope you distrust the Gadaffi version as well

Because, anything that comes out quoting "Libyan Officials" is more than likely to be cooked by Gadaffi's propaganda machine, as had already been seen extensively through both his rule, the revolt, the start of the civil war and now the global action.

Every report release detailing UN atrocities from "Libyan officials", every single one, is designed to collapse international support and bring potential allies into the fight for the batshit insane dictator of Libya.

And before anyone says, "But we do propaganda, too!" I am not arguing that here--I am just saying, "Libyan officials" are about as legitimate of news sources as concussed ducks walking across keyboards.

Gaddafi's henchmen displayed bullet-ridden bodies on TV as being casualties of the UN bombing. Unfortunately, one of the bodies was recognized as a youngster who was kidnapped by Gaddafi forces.

So now they char them so that bullet holes and faces are unrecognizable.

Nothing they state is true.

something for all of us to remember.

Regardless of our position on the issue.

rushing to war with untrustworthy information coming from ALL sides.

And when someone says "but we're more honester than them" I can't help but think about babies being dumped from stolen incubators.

And the fact that Libya was target #4 on the PNAC's hit list.

This has nothing to do with PNAC's hit list.

This has to do with Susan Rice trying to avoid another Rwanda.

Just because Bush I lied about incubators means that it can be transferred to all war actions?

That is like saying that because Clinton was a democratic president who had an affair, then Obama a democratic president will have an affair.

And how, pray, can you be SURE of that?

It's not that Bush 1 lied - it is about how the public was propagandized while unable to verify basic facts for themselves.

BTW, Rwanda is also a false equivalency - that was a horrific civil war in which no government had any real power to stop the slaughter. Bombing the capital would have had ZERO effect there. All that would have worked would be to put 50,000 ground troops in there, keeping the two populations separated. Are you calling for a massive infusion of ground troops in Libya?

The UN voted on a 'no fly zone'. Within a day, that morphed into attacks on armor, ground troops, and behind-the-line command and control; not to mention SCUD, I mean, Tomahawk missile attacks which most decidedly do NOT take out flying aircraft -- WAY beyond the limits of enforcing a no fly zone. That's not mission creep - that's a wild gallop down the PNAC trail.

revolted because they were #4 on the PNAC list, and Gadaffi started his massacres because Libya was #4 on the PNAC list.

Sorry, Susan Rice stated that she wanted to avoid another Rwanda no matter how inappropriate the comparison you may think - i.e. her advocacy for Libya was based on not wanting a repeat of Rwanda.

I've already pointed out how this is nothing like Rwanda - more closely parallels Kosovo, actually. The DLC/PNAC connection has been made time after time, and it is obvious to everyone today how the Iraq war was ginned up based on lies and misrepresentations. And if Rice is not actually DLC, she is certainly hewing to the DLC tenets of American supremicism and interventionism.

We should assume we are getting the truth from DLCers today?

(Pre-post edit) OK I googled Susan Rice. No apparent direct DLC connection. Just the Council on Foreign Relation and Brookings Institute connections which she shares with a number of PNACers. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

The question is not why the protesters revolted - it is why we (the US & international community) chose to support THIS revolt when we've paid little to no attention to similar revolts around the world over the past decade.

had this scale of slaughter.

Egypt worked out better (not saying well until all has played out), Tunisia seems good, Syria indicated that they wanted no bloodshed and are going to allow political parties - we'll see how far that goes, Yemen may yet resolve itself. Washington has enough influence in Bahrain to possibly avoid another Libya there.

With the above countries, there appears to be negotiation room where some may be faster than others - with Libya there was zero.

As far as Zimbabwe is concerned, there are no good options. Military action against what? The only thing that would help would be ground troops and that is a big no-no, and has not been asked for. Obama did fairly early on try action in Zim with other tools, but they have not worked.

Surely the buck stops with our President.

or any other middle eastern thug like Bibi or the rest of them? Bush lied, Obama lies and that is all I care about. We blew off 122 of the 124 missiles fired at Libya to the tune of 200 million. And now we are murdering his soldiers and wi
""Libyan officials" are about as legitimate of news sources as concussed ducks walking across keyboards. " And so are we. Or did you believe Obama and the EPA about the Gulf Oil spill? Do YOU eat fish from the Gulf?

To insist we're dishonest and then hold up what the Libyan government says at face value--especially because Gadaffi has a very well known history of manipulation.

Feel free to keep on distrusting the US, too. Wasn't my point.

I've long ceased trusting most information in the media. I've been misquoted by the press too many times and read articles about events I attended that sounded nothing remotely like what I witnessed. I figure they can't mess up basic information like "Japan had an earthquake" and "Obama was sworn in as president," but beyond that I'm not so trusting of media reported details.

All governments put out reports that benefit them and degrade their opponent.

All governments use some sort of propaganda.

All governments champion their "humanitarian" programs.

All governments never admit to human rights violations.

All governments want to come across as the paragon of peace.

All governments lie.

I would put considerably more credibility in the statements coming from the US gov than those coming from the Libyan gov. If you've heard any of the interviews w/ Saif Gaddafi, then you will see he, like his father, utters pretty much nothing but preposterous lies.

Who or how it benefits us or them is up for debate.

All governments lie.

To pretend that they are, IMHO, presents a false equivalency that put madmen in the same category as the sane, but perhaps tactically mendacious.

How you choose to parce it is up to you, if that helps you to sleep better at night.

All govermnments lie.

Yup.

Because I read through the bullshit.

All governments lie.

Once you understand that, everything becomes clear.

It's all black and white, w/ no gradation or grey scale, right? If so, then you have something in common w/ true believers everywhere, and I suppose this means that you also believe that no government could ever exist that does not lie. If so, then we are left w/ what? Sadly perhaps, I don't forsee any prospect that we will be rid of the need of government any time soon.

I suggest then, that we must do our best to pierce through the BS, as you say, but also try to use our powers of discernment to compare and contrast the lies, falsehoods and exaggerations offered by various political interests and establishments in an effort to choose to support those which engage it the least and in the least offensive ways.

To that point, I find the it easy to choose our government over the one based in Tripoli.

continue down your path, have fun and complain about useless crap you have zero control over, all the while believing one side over the other when neither side doesn't give a damn about you.

All governments lie.

yourself incapable of reasoned discussion. I suppose, had I read your profile page earlier and seen your "hobby", I might have guessed this.

No, you just don't like my opinion.

And that is were we differ. While, I don't give a damn about your opinion, I never said it was wrong. I just don't agree with it. And for some mysterious reason, you seem to feel you can convince me otherwise.

Everyone needs a hobby, I guess.

All governments lie.

it shows little evidence of intelligent thought.

about Iraq? Remember Zarqawi, the supposed 'leader of Al Quada' that we killed numerous times, who sometimes had one leg, and sometimes did not?

I don't believe any official statements from any government about the wars they are engaged in, until they are verified by reputable sources on the ground.

within a spectrum of credibility. Some are simply bold-faced lies, some more like convenient exaggerations or spin, and some are attributable to our propensity for human error. I do not believe that these falsehoods are all equally important or damning. I agree w/ you about the need for verification from source that do not have vested interests involved.

Libya says some of the 18 killed recently were civilians. The Pentagon says no civilians have been killed at all.

Can't trust any of them.

Let's see here......

Who is a more reliable source of information???

Someone speaking on behalf of "the batshit insane dictator of Libya"?

Or

Someone speaking on behalf of the batshit warmongers in the Pentagon?

Tough choice.

To ignore that because someone doesn't support the UN action is to give credence where there should be none.

If everything the US says should be suspected as being spin, the same absolutely applies to the goofball in the oclonel costume.

.

Does not get you any closer to the truth.

Look not arguing against people who don't want to be there. Just arguing that you need to be really careful with "official" accounts of the UN killing innocents.

The US has no people on the ground in Libya (they were all evacuated, as I recall).

The Libyan government has people on the ground in Libya.

The US has a vested interest in having people support its war (all those Tomahawk Missles had to have some reason to be dropped).

I think I am more inclined to believe what the government of Libya has to say.

and then moving in and attacking the rebels.

That is Libya's responsibility and is best ignored.

All to care about is what officials in the USA and the western media convey and politicians lie and the DoD lies even more.

What I knew before action was taken is that more lives would be lost or destroyed and more damage would be incurred with outside intervention so I opposed intervention. Collateral damage occurs when missiles are fired and bombs drop.

The intensity of initial attack surprised me.

Obama has been following the PNAC strategy which slowed when GWB hit operational and political speed bumps.

This is why I wanted HRC and any GOP as far from the WH as possible and supported Obama.

Now we have a 3rd war with unclear leadership, goal, and exit strategy that is dangerously close to the EU. Plus even if Gadaffi is removed there is little idea what sort of government

That Russia, China, Brazil, and India plus Germany abstained in the UNSC was a hint. Libya was negotiating oil deals with China, Brazil, and India not open to western nations.

France was stupid in recognizing the rebels as the Libyan government.