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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:44 PM
Original message
Civilian casualties mount in the war against Libya
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 02:45 PM by Catherina
...

On Sunday night at least 18 large explosions were heard in or near Sirte, apparently part of the coalition's campaign of attacking air defences and other military targets. But reports that the city had fallen to the Benghazi-based rebels were evidently wrong – and fuelled Libyan fury at the satellite TV channels that claimed it had.

It was firmly in government hands and its people defiant. "I saw death with my own eyes," said Fawzi Imish, whose house and every other in his seafront street had its windows shattered by a Tomahawk missile strike in the early hours of the morning. "It was just intended to terrify people. And if the rebels come here, we will receive them with bullets."

...

Residents of Sirte's beachfront area protested angrily at an attack on Saturday night which killed three men picnicking on a breakwater surrounding a small harbour, packed with wooden fishing boats abandoned by their Egyptian and Tunisian crews when the uprising began last month. Fragments of the bomb were embedded in a shallow crater at the end of the stone jetty – which had no conceivable military use.

On Khartoum Street, where one of the dead men lived, a woman could be heard wailing inconsolably as grim-faced relatives arrived to pay their respects.

...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/28/libya-sirte-gaddafi-loyalists-rebels
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. The "civilian" issue there
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 02:49 PM by dipsydoodle
isn't helped by the fact the insurgents are clever enough not wear uniforms so technically anyone not in the Libyan Army is a civilian.

:hi:
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. No it's really not. If we're going to arm them, the least we could do is give them uniforms
:hi:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It's probably me, but I'm not sure what you're saying.
Are you saying that the report of residents of Sirte being killed by bombs is wrong and that the civilians who were killed were revolutionaries? Wouldn't that be even worse, if there is a worse when someone is killed, for the NATO forces?

I'm sure I'm mis-understanding, need more coffee and sorry for my confusion if I'm misreading your post :-)
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. I'm not saying who's who
Just the absurdity of everyone not in the Army being a classed as a civilian simply because the insurgents don't wear uniforms. As such any reported civilian deaths could be either general population or insurgents - its impossible to tell which are which.

:hi:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. True, but it would be a disaster for NATO if they were to
kill the very people they are there to protect ... I would think they would try to avoid that.
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guruoo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. "And if the rebels come here, we will receive them with bullets."
Sure sounds like a credible source, doesn't it?
:eyes:
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sabrina 1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. The town is Qaddafi's home town. So it's likely that there are
Edited on Tue Mar-29-11 03:41 PM by sabrina 1
many people who support him there. It's also likely that there are people who do not want to be involved in any of the fighting. Nothing is black and white.

This article is from the Guardian. If you know anything about Libyan history, you know that at least half the country is probably not supportive of NATO's intervention.

Learning the history of these nations, and Libya is a relatively new 'country' which was never completely united, is helpful in at least not jumping to conclusions we may have to reconsider later.

We cannot possibly understand the situation but to just have a knee-jerk reaction as to who is right and who is wrong, is not very smart without knowing much more about the reality there.

Khamis Mohammed, a Sirte University lecturer, accused Nato of deliberately targeting innocent civilians and supporting "mercenaries and terrorists" in the east.

"Our grandfathers fought Mussolini and we will fight and live free in our land," he said. "If Nato really cared about civilians it and the UN would send a mission here to find out who is really the aggressor."

Hatred for the Benghazi rebels has been fuelled by an incident on Sunday when pro-Gaddafi loyalists taking part in a peace march were confronted near Bin Jawad and three of them reportedly shot and killed, despite carrying white flags and olive branches. But according to some accounts armed volunteers were in one bus at the rear of the convoy.


This person may or may not be right, I don't live there, nor do you, but he is a Libyan and yes, they did fight the Italians for their right to live free of colonialism. There are definitely factions in the country going back decades and are we really in a position to know who is right or wrong in a country we know virtually nothing about?

I think people here need to take a little time to try to understand the people of these various countries we invade before holding forth on what WE believe is right for them.
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Shagbark Hickory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 04:58 PM
Response to Original message
8. It was important though. Europe needed it's bleifrei.
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-29-11 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh but its not a war....no Clinton told me herself on national TV!
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