We are FIGHTING ON THE WRONG SIDE in Libya

Gaddafi is fighting Al Qaeda.

Al Qaeda is our Gaddafi's enemy and our deadliest foe. Why are we arming al Qaeda? We should be arming Qaddafi.

It is true that, in the past, Gaddafi made a few questionable choices, but he has matured as a leader and is the region's best hope for stability and ultimately Democracy.

You will never convince me that Gaddafi is not a TRUE HERO right now.

God bless him, and God forgive us.

all his rats are leaving the ship...

...we should be supporting Qadaffi to the hilt in his epic struggle against the tools of petro-capitalism and Western imperialism.

Or not, depending.

We are fighting on the side the puppet masters want us to be fighting on. The 'right side' has nothing to do with it.

...there's an old debater's truism that the alligator is more dangerous than the lion -- both have big mouths, but the alligator has no external ears.

eg: "Dictators are good for keeping terrorists down."

(Hint: dictators make the fucking terrorists, fucking shit man!)

As reported via Al Jazeera. Which media point will you believe?

they dont give a shit about telling the truth as long as the ends justifies the means, we dont know who they really are and they do totally believe that lying to us infidels is okie dokie!!

And may he rot in hell for eternity.

And you honestly feel someone who would "mow down" his own people is a hero? If he's so wonderful, why are so many in his population willing to die to get him out of power?

Are you serious?

...that are no more than the puppets of the oil countries want him gone.

Or something.

I just want out of this mess.

with someone who's willing to kill me, I'm probably not going to look too kindly upon them.

That spotlights the people in Egypt even more - where those who were "enemies" for one reason or another, came together in solidarity to stand up for their country. If we could all only really learn the lessons from them.

I'm one of the ones who was for this action, but I agree, it's becoming a mess. I understand better now how we get sucked deeper and deeper into these situations. I'm cautiously supportive now -- will wait and see how it goes, I guess.

I don't really think this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia4HdC11eSw

U.S. finds no organized Al Qaeda presence in Libya opposition, officials say
Eastern Libya, the rebels' base, has a history as a breeding ground for Islamic militants, but an intelligence-gathering effort has not uncovered a significant number of extremists, officials say.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/mar/23/world/la-fg-libya-rebels-intel-20110324




Suddenly the news cycle changes -- see Fox News who surely lead this. Repeat "flicker" 16 times until you buy this.


Intelligence on Libya rebels shows "flickers" of Qaeda
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/libya-intelligence-shows-flickers-al-qaeda-u-20110329-074729-524.html

Fox NEWS
http://www.foxnews.mobi/quickPage.html?page=17315&content=50063431&pageNum=-1

...he wants the same thing you want. An end to the war. His end-game is faster than anything the rebels are capable of. You have to take your allies where you find them.

Er, Nescafe.

Now, I've seen everything on DU.

most anti-war progressive must have problems with Qaddafi cleansing. Please tell me that I am wrong and that no person, war weary or not supports that monster.

Click the link in this post, it's an in-depth article. Then, look at the whole thread this reply came from.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=497753&mesg_id=497848


Here are the Qaddafi project files, referred to in the Politico article posted above, including payment info:

Project to Enhance the Profile of Libya and Muammar Qadhafi, Monitor Group
http://motherjones.com/files/project_to_enhance_the_profile_of_libya_and_muammar_qadhafi.pdf

if it doesn't work try this...
http://www.libya-nclo.com/Portals/0/pdf%20files/Monitor%203.pdf

A Proposal for Expanding the Dialogue Around the Ideas of Muammar Qadhafi, Monitor Group
https://motherjones.com/files/a_proposal_for_expanding_the_dialogue_around_the_ideas_of_muammar_qadhafi2.pdf


More:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/04/the-monitor-group-gadaffi-pr

http://www.thenation.com/blog/159046/professors-paid-qaddafi-providing-positive-public-relations

http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/blogs/the_angle/2011/03/libya_public_re.html


http://www.frumforum.com/cashing-in-on-qaddafi

http://www.frumforum.com/confessions-of-an-ex-qaddafi-lobbyist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya_lobby

http://www.moreaboutadvertising.com/2011/03/is-it-right-to-pillory-pr-firm-brown-lloyd-james-for-its-colonel-gaddafi-connection/

http://www.moreaboutadvertising.com/2011/03/pressure-group-targets-libyas-brown-lloyd-james-and-bahrains-bell-pottinger-in-call-for-ethical-pr/

http://www.moreaboutadvertising.com/2011/03/whos-winning-the-public-relations-war-in-libya/

http://www.moreaboutadvertising.com/2011/03/are-france-the-uk-and-the-us-losing-the-pr-war-over-libya-already/


That came up in a fairly quick search I did a couple of weeks ago. Maybe later I'll make it into an organized posting and maybe not, but that should be enough to tell you something stinks. I looked just to find out for myself. I knew of course, that Gaddafi has lobbyists in DC. I saw public opinion turn on a dime, and it was plain to see that it came from some pundits etc. ("opinion maker" types). So I checked, to see what I could find out.

There it is. MILLIONS are being spent to sway public opinion to Gaddafi (and that was going on BEFORE this action started, so it's in overdrive now). And some of the writers people here are reading are on the payroll. You can bank on it. Some who are mentioned in these articles are known, others are not known, and some are not paid themselves but are writing based on the influence of those who ARE paid.

Naive? You want to talk about naive? Anybody who is advocating for Qaddafi is being USED like his tool.

And now you know about it, so there's no excuse for continuing to do it.

"key Libyan decision-markers and stakeholders" "client roles and responsibilities"

where's the "low hanging fruit" and "at the end of the day" and "outside the box"?

Outside the box the client's responsibility is to delegate torture.

opposition? I don't get it.

I suppose if your hero's tend to be megalomaniacal whackjobs he would fit the bill. Perhaps when he's done you can hook up with Robert Mugabe, he's pretty much cut from the same cloth.

.

I could have swore I saw your nickname arguing against the rebellion. Apologies if you never did.

I still think they have not made good military choices.

But I want them to win.

However, I am tired of the rebels = Al Qaeda meme. I wanted to see just how absurd the allegation could get.

I recognize this as sardonic humor.

to type something that stupid?

by having some actual examples on DU I could use as templates.

from some of the bullshit I've read here recently.

:rofl:

Until I clicked on the thread. Because that does seem to be the majority opinion on DU. Of course - that could be astroturf. And I think it is. And it hurts me to see people I once respected and thought intelligent buying into it.

Here's a video of a man telling a reporter that they are not Al Qaeda, that it's Gaddafi who has been giving all the country's money to terrorists. Also he shows a desire for help. - http://vimeo.com/21238167 Plus, do note the large demonstration chanting "We want no fly zone!" And the sign that says "Libya one free land". I hear, over and over, that no one wants divison, that it is not a civil war, that the tribes are all united against Gaddafi.

I think that taking Gaddafi out would actually really help fight terrorism, because he is a major terrorist.

You know what I really think this is?

Believe me, I'm as big a fan of peaceful protest as anyone. But the people who are judging the Libyans for taking up arms never mention the mercenaries and how civil disobedience is supposed to get trained paid foreign killers to defect.

I also think that Gaddafi is not your run of the mill dictator. I think he is way more brutal than Mubarak or Ben Ali. Civil disobedience is meant to awaken a conscience in your oppressors. I do not think he has one to awaken.

Anyway - I seriously think that a big part of it is that poor brown people with guns scare the pants off privileged white Westerners.

I'm reading Killing Rage, by bell hooks. It was written in the 90s, pre-9/11 and our obsession with terrorism. Here's a quote.

"I think that one fantasy of whiteness is that the threatening Other is always a terrorist." - bell hooks

She also talks about the difference in white reaction to the civil rights movement versus the more aggressive black self-determination, like the philosophy of the Black Panthers. Made me think of the differences in reaction to the Libyan revolution versus the Tunisian and Egyptian ones.

I think that American media, like Fox, is pushing the terrorist meme because certain people want to make it like Iraq and Afghanistan. They want to impose a puppet government at least, if not occupy the country. But the Libyans made their own government before we got there, a kickass government. And they will not bend - they are of, by, and for the Libyan people. So the people who want them to bend, if not outright replace them with a puppet government, started up the propaganda machine. Who are we helping? Terrorists, Al Qaeda, militant Islamists, scary people, scare scare fear fear, brown people can't rule themselves, big white brother gotta help them, gotta install a government of the West's choosing.

And for the left, who might not be quite so susceptible to that, there's the FBI conspiracy, the Big Oil conspiracy, all that sort of thing. Scare scare fear fear.

A Libyan tweeted earlier today that he was wondering if NATO was pushing the Al Qaeda propaganda because the West wants to install a puppet government. I replied and said yeah, and it's sad how anti-imperialist ideologues are falling for it and playing right into their hands.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/2011/03/2011328194855872276.html - Al Jazeera op-ed about how the NTC is most definitely not a Western puppet and will not be one.

The NTC's vision for the future of Libya - http://english.aljazeera.net/mritems/Documents/2011/3/29/2011329113923943811The%20Interim%20Transitional%20National%20Council%20Statement.pdf

Yep. Sure sounds like scary terrorists to me.

And I am filled with rage and disgust and hate and betrayal at what some countries are doing to people who asked for their help. Some. Not all. For instance, I am assuming that the Canadian and Swiss jets are actually there to help. And Qatar really seems to be helping. I heard that the Egyptian military has begun shipping arms to the Libyans.

Which I don't call them rebels. Or even freedom fighters or revolutionaries. But Libyans. Because from what I can tell, that's what they are.

And there are definite forces in the coalition who want to betray them, and I cannot express my rage and hatred for them in words.

I do know that if at the end of this the Libyans are not free and governing themselves, I will go full activist and I will dedicate my life to fighting against those who betrayed them. Who betrayed all of us. Because we are all Libya.

As are we.

blowing up passenger planes and shit.

Enjoy the game.

They are falling on Libyans, or am I mistaken?

.

.

He is a despot. One of many in that region.

However, he is a despot with oil, so naturally we're interested in "liberating" Libya

Not a single one should be left! Let every democrat and progressive smear themselves in their blood and dance in celebration!

Gaddafi is the arch enemy of the house of Saud, and he is also expendable. the Royal families of the Arabia and the Gulf Emirates are NOT.


If we had not cooked-up the Libya Civil War, attention would be fully on the popular protests in the Arabian Peninsula and our truly STRATEGIC INTERESTS would be threatened.

THAT'S THE WAY IT IS.

then you're with The Communists AlQaeda Saddam Qaddafi!!!



I've seen this movie before.
It doesn't end well. In fact, for Afghanistan and Iraq, it hasn't "ended" at all.

If I'm cynical, its NOT my fault.
I've paid attention over the last 40 years,
and these Mother Fuckers have NEVER told the truth when they wanted to Get Their WAR On!

They didn't even change The Marketing much this time,
which goes to prove that You CAN fool some of the people ALL of the time.

I give it a 8/10. :)

Nobody on DU has ever supported Gaddafi.

It's pretty much impossible for anyone on this board to defend Ghaddafi, but some do the next best thing, which is criticize the opposition. That's alright to a certain extent I guess, because they certainly aren't perfect, but they are people who have actually risked their lives to stand up to a dictator and that's worth something in my book. I find scoffing at the Libyan opposition a bit distasteful.

Part of DU opposition to the intervention is regular left-wing anti-war sentiment. Though I don't happen to agree with that position in this case, I do understand and respect where it is coming from. But part of it is also knee-jerk anti-Americanism, which I have less sympathy for. Though they won't admit it, I think some people are hostile to the intervention because Ghaddafi has for years assumed an anti-Western stance and some people here have affection for that despite Ghaddafi's dismal record. That doesn't mean they are all that fond of him, but more fond of him than a dictator with a similar human rights record but not a history of anti-Westernism.

But I'll have some of what you're drinking.....

I think you would still conclude that the guy is a murderous asshole, and he has been over there breeding murderous assholes as fast as he can for a long time.

The first step in healing that country, or at least putting on some sane path, is to disengage the Gadhafi's from the whole situation and let a little sunlight in. It may not be for us to do, but I hope for the Libyans that it is done nevertheless. If they do it themselves it would be greatly to their credit.

is a sure sign of a mature world leader.

I'm amazed at the words that you have decided to enter through your keyboard into your computer showing up on your browser window and at the fact that having seen them there, you decided the proper course of action to take was to click "Post message" and send it through the series of intertubes to show to the world.

The whole issue is, of course, extremely complicated, and we should think twice about arming anyone (something we do too often, honestly), but who's arming al Qaeda and how is Gaddafi a hero? This is ridiculous. What has Gaddafi done to protect us from al Qaeda? What are you talking about? Where did these concepts come from? Source please?

Edit to add: Oh, now I get it. Never mind.

Then I realized you were teasing. These days I never know any more. :(

Well played. I got it at "a few questionable choices," but you had me for a second. :D

A few questionable choices???!!!! He blew up Pan AM 103!!!!! For that alone he should rot in jail for life.

I recall back when the lies were flying fast and furious about Iraq's weapons programs, and the truth was also to be found, but no one seemed interested in it, particularly journalists. And then the Iraq war, which was of course a shameful fiasco from the beginning. (The primary differences between that and Libya: Iraqis were not rising up against Saddam, he wasn't doing anything bad at the time, and was more or less bending over backwards to accommodate our demands, and we staged a ground invasion to overthrow the government and set up a new one, because we wanted to and we thought we could).

Anyway, back then I recall being so upset at all the crap going on that I felt sorry for Saddam and, on the theory that people go into government out of a desire to serve, I did some research on Saddam to see what kind of a guy he was. Of course there were a few good things, and his "pan-Arabic nationalist" period had some things to recommend it, if you were ticked off enough at our own often ham-handed manipulation over there. But any admiration I might have had of some of his ideological perspectives and culturally grounded points of support was quickly over-balanced by a look at the megalomaniacal murderous assholery with which he actually governed the populace.

Same goes for Gadhafi.