Slaughtering people because a fucking book was burnt is insane.

Not to mention slaughtering people who had nothing to do with said act and weren't even from the same country where it happened.

Just a little perspective.

Yeah, Jones is a first rate asswipe, but I'm glad he has the right to burn a book even if I deplore his doing so.

A book is not a human being. A book is a symbol.

Oh and mobs suck. Humans once they form into a mob are mindless savage fuckwads.

tooth scenario, to have burned a bible or two.

I guess religious nuts are religious nuts regardless of the religion they embrace.

IOW, if you limit to equal repayment in kind, by law, then reprisals LIKE WHAT JUST HAPPENED would be avoided.

she would disappear every 'holy' book on the planet.

I believe that the guy who created "Piss Christ" is alive and well and living quite openly. I don't think the Pope ever even issued a fatwa against him.

Burn a Koran, however, or write a book that claims the Koran contained "Satanic Verses", and it's quite a different story.

http://www.villagevoice.com/2008-08-27/columns/serrano-s-shit-show/

Really, who saw that one coming?

N/T

are irrational, ignorant murderers

Christians have never, ever murdered anyone over any 'book' ~ :eyes:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

himself, listened to his 'heavenly father' before deciding to go slaughter hundreds of thousands of Muslims on their own soil. And that is how that war is viewed by many Muslims in the world. Supporting his crusade, vocally, were a host of Anti-Muslim bigots all over hate radio, whose words could have left no doubt that 'either we convert them or we kill them' was the sentiment of a significant number of Fundamentalist Christians in this country.

'Treat them like dogs' said one of our Christian generals. And if haven't seen some of the video of the General making it clear that this was, to him, a Christian crusade, I am sure it was seen in the Muslim world.

Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, the murderers are savage assholes - they do not, however, represent the entirety of a religion. Jones is also an asshole - and if he had the power, I don't think he'd hesitate to declare war on Islam and send millions to their deaths in the name of Christ (who, real or false, the Jesus I read about in the bible would be disgusted and infuriated by the idea).

Jones deserves a special place in hell (though personally, I don't believe it exists), as do the murderers. I won't argue against his right to burn a book, but I still say that he is a disgusting human being and we should not lend his actions credibility by agreeing with his intent, which was to dehumanize a people who's religion opposed his - for ignorant and hateful reasons. He is no less a fanatic than the murderers, he is simply more subtle.

...and you know it.

This is about people giving validation to the mob based on this asshole's legally protected , yet ignorant burning of the Koran.

Where they killed UN workers was in a place where it probably wasn't legally protected. No excuse for what they did and I hate fundamentalist extremists of all sort.

eastern wars.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Killing over a bunch of pages is just ridiculous and those that do are complete heathen scum.

as your post does.

Islam as a whole is responsible. You have to willfully see any such thing- and that's repugnant.

makes it clear they are not. Which I view as repugnant since we know very well that that ARE many who will 'willfully see such a thing'.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You're refuting arguments that nobody here is making. Nobody is saying that 'all Muslims are irrational, ignorant murderers' on this thread.

No one's trying to demonize Muslims, we're demonizing irrational murderers.

I will assume it was as it does not relate to me in any way.

:nuke:

it had the desired effect.

or don't you agree?

And knowing that, he still burned it. He didn't burn the book to save somebody's life or even keep them warm.

If I have some crazy guy threatening to kill my family, I am not going to do something pointless just to piss him off.

just got here

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

fact burn some recently. In retaliation, some people were slaughtered/beheaded.

I don't have a link or more specifics for you. I don't google things very fast.

crazy is as crazy does

Otherwise it looks like an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway.

It doesn't matter where they were from, they were UN workers...and as far as the mob was concerned, the UN represents the West, specifically the US.

Jones is more of a ratfucker then he is an asswipe, and while he has the right to burn any book he wants to...just because you have the right doesn't mean you should do it. He knew that something like this could happen, but he didn't care...all he's concerned with is his own fame and fortune. Now he'll be on TV interviews for days, which is what he wanted all the time

But that book is a symbol of a religious belief, just as the Bible is for Christians...try burning a bible in front of a church during Sunday services...I'll bet you'll need a police escort to keep from getting beaten down.

We know that mobs suck, just look when the Tea Party asshats get together...mindless, savage, knuckle dragging, mouth breathers.

whatever. and how the hell do you know what the mob was thinking? How do you know that to them the U.N. represents the U.S.?

Moreover, I don't think that, if a bible burning happened on the steps of a church in Maine, a group of Christians would kill a bunch of "other" folks in California. Do you agree?

All Christians did was protest when the NEA paid an artist to stick a crucifix in a jar of urine.

Glasgow Gallary of Modern Art encouraged individuals to desecrate a Bible (more tax funded this time in Britain) - again more protests

The desecration of a communion wafer by PZ Myers (not tax payer funded this time) but Prof. Myers retains his appointment at a public university - more protests

Jesus being eaten by ants - Smithsonian Museum of Art (more tax dollars at work) - exhibit removed after political pressure

The Holy Virgin Mary (Mary in elephant dung in pornographic situation exhibited at the Brooklyn Museum of Art

Remember these are all acts funded by tax dollars or performed by a public sector employee with no consequences.

Would we tolerate the equivalent tax payer funded art showing desecration of Moslem articles of worship?

If a cleric decided to burn a Bible in the Middle East, would we round up eight Moslems to kill them?

After the Moslem boys urinated on a Bible in Austrailia, I did not see were we lynched some Moslems.

We arrested and convicted a man for throwing a Koran in the toilet in the U.S.

I think it is incredibly stupid and non-Christian to burn a Koran. I have friends who are Moslems that I have a great deal of respect for. I don't agree with their religion, but I appreciate their sincerity in their belief.

Any level of justification for this act just condones a lynch mob mentality.

No one has a monopoly on insanity. And we are hardly in a position to judge others until we deal with our own extremists who have the power to do a lot more damage when they go on their crusades, as our then POTUS called it, rightly apparently.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Anything insane . . . How many other topics are required discussion before before we judge the mob in question here?

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

I wonder if they realize their assumption that the world revolves around the United States is shared with the far right?

on this topic, what, eg, were the reactions of the thousands of other Muslims who were there? Were they all supportive of this horrendous crime? I cannot tell from this OP. How many were part of the mob? Who were they? This is a sensationalist OP which feeds into the current anti-Muslim atmosphere in this country today.

So, what are the details of this story so we can properly judge the guilty people without including those who may have been as horrified as we are by the slaughter?

And the mob. Reports say that the mob numbered about 2,000. And there is nothing remotely anti-Muslim in the OP. I'm blaming the Mob. Of course many Muslims are horrified by this. duh.

Every time something like this happens and there is no effort, considering the bigotry they experience on a regular basis, those Muslims I know fear the reactions they know they will see and they fear for their children most of all, many of whom are not invited to birthday parties or other social functions because they 'could be terrorists'.

This kind of OP does NOT distinguish between those who are guilty and those who are as shocked and horrified as we are. In the current climate of anti-Muslim bigotry that exists in this country without even going there, I am sure that this crime will be blamed on all Muslims on rightwing boards.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

board, is it not? If you can't handle the discussion that's not my concern.

And it's not the OP.

"Physician, heal thyself."

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

But you are entitled to YOUR opinion. And don't worry, I won't throw any temper tantrum over it :-)

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

Here's the NY Times take on it so far:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/02/world/asia/02afghanistan.html

Sorry I couldn't give an link from your homies over at 'you know where.' So far they only have a one-paragraph blurb ;)

Prove it or retract it. You have violated the rules of DU which I will be happy to provide for you with that baseless accusation.

Sorry for the confusion. That was stupid of me to think the reference was clear. My mistake and I apologize.

sources, many, many sources I use and is certainly not my 'homie'. However your apology is accepted.

Without endorsement, but purely as an exercise in setting a case, 'killing people for oil' can be taken to be a completely rational act, aimed at materially improving the killer's circumstances in the world, and often succeeding in that aim. Given present economic and social and military arrangements, oil is an essential item; its acquisition at less money cost is a positive good to one who can manage that; lives are a cost of doing business, and men are frequently cheaper than money. These calculations may be distasteful, even abhorrent, but they are based on things with actual material existence, and quite reasonable.

Killing people over blasphemy cannot meet the test of being an action based on actual material facts, and so cannot be a rational act. It is rooted in belief that a particular deity actually exists, and further, that that deity requires human action to vindicate its honor. Neither of these can be demonstrated to be fact, and so must be treated as delusions. Action based on delusion cannot possibly be other than insane.

But some things are. Your own first paragraph answers the question. The case you laid out, which is the view of many who direct our foreign policies, is directly related to the extremism that led to the murder of the UN workers. Everything has consequences. Those who direct policies based on the beliefs you laid out, apparently believe they should not suffer any consequences when they kill for their own selfish reasons. That is a form of insanity in my view.

As for your second paragraph, while I cannot relate to those who believe that their religion is everything, the fact is, and responsible people should keep it in mind, that to them, their deity is not a delusion, but the very reason for their being. You can call that insane, and I would agree, nevertheless it is a fact. Stirring up such people on purpose is like setting off a bomb as we have learned over and over again.

There is a lot of insanity and yes, it is all related, from those in your first paragraph to those in your second paragraph and then those who because of their own religious beliefs, such as the book-buring pastor, choose to set off the bombs deliberately.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

But the extremism that has caused such a rise in terrorism around the globe in recent years is directly related to the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan and the incursions into Pakistan and Yemen most definitely are related to the case as laid out in your first paragraph.


I don't believe I said their beliefs altered any facts, but their beliefs ARE a fact and a fact that when ignored, can result in what just happened.

So, those things are related.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

There is no excuse for what was done by the mob; no one is responsible for it but the people who comprised the mob.

mob? If so, then shame on them. And that would be to whom your comment should be directed.

I am always willing to admit to something if I believe I have made an error. But in this case, the rise in terrorism, the attacks by extremists, not just this tragic event, have risen around the globe ever since the invasion of Iraq. These facts have been documented and reports on them were available each year until the Bush administration, embarrassed by the fact that rather than stop terrorism, their wars only increased it, attempted to hide that information from the public.

So, no I am not over-reaching, these things are connected. I am not sure why you cannot see the connections.

Your claim is that they are a response to be expected, that they are a form of 'self-defense' against Western depredation, or part of such , and provoked solely by incursions of the West into the Moslem world. This claim strips responsibility for the killings from the people who killed other humans at the U.N. compound, and fastens it onto the Bush administration, and the West in general: the West provoked, and under that provocation, people could do nothing but act as they did, so really, it is the West and its incursions into the Moslem world that is responsible.

But what is actually being discussed here is a particular incident, the killing of a number of people as an expression of rage over the burning of a book, which the people killed had nothing whatever to do with. You refuse to engage that directly; you take refuge in generalizing it and blending it in to a number of other items, in order to avoid facing what is the most obvious feature of the situation: the killing of these people was a wholly irrational response to the combustion of a small quantity of paper and ink quite literally on the other side of the globe.

You have made a completely false allegation, something you dreamed up in your own mind:

You Are Making The Claim The Killings Were Justified

I have of course, made no such claim. Nor have you provided, nor could you, any evidence to back up that statement.

Your claim is that they are a response to be expected,

Of course it was. The Pentagon agrees with me. They warned this 'Pastor' that his actions could cause harm to U.S. troops. Clearly they knew what they were talking about.


To refuse to recognize a potential danger, especially when the danger is to others, is criminally irresponsible. That is what Jones did. He shares the blame for those murders and he apparently, from his recent statements, does not deny it, nor has he any remorse for his part in the murders. He is in fact, planning more.



I don't know where to begin here. The entire paragraph is utter nonsense and in no way represents my views. I stated FACTS. There ARE people who are either so mentally ill or just plain evil and waiting for an opportunity to do harm to others, who can be easily provoked into committing violent acts. That is a fact. You appear to be denying that fact in an attempt to defend Jones. Such people are the ones who are easily provoked by the likes of Jones. And he knows that. He has admitted it.

'people could do nothing'?? What a ridiculous claim that would be, and one I would never make for that reason. I recognized a FACT. A fact also recognized by the Pentagon. Was the pentagon claiming they had no other choice? Or just recognizing a potential danger? Of course they had choices. And the likelihood was, considering the kind of people most likely to be making such a choice, was that they would make the wrong choice.

I think you should pay more attention to what people actually say in the future. People have been brutally murdered now. A man has admitted that he is pleased with the results of his actions. He has admitted that he intends to riks the lives of more innocent people.

You may be willing to exonerate him from all blame. That is your prerogative. I will assign to him the blame he himself seems more than happy to accept.

Unless you believe that Muslims are just dangerous people and that the oppression of the West, the attacks on them, the slaughter of their loved ones by Imerial powers for decades, has had no effect on the rise of extremism, and that therefore we in the West should continue to invade their countries as there are not going to be any consequences for our actions.

...can have a rational and sane basis, whereas religious wars cannot ever be seen that way.

the lives of people in countries that you illegally invade for their resources, are worthless and disposable.

Do you consider that rational and sane?

Theft and murder are rational and sane if WE do it .... our belief!

And that is exactly what THEY believe, minus the theft as they don't need OUR resources, we need theirs.

So, we are not, if we accept that case laid out by the Magistrate, any different, are we?

We all have our reasons for murder it seems. And that is the connection.

Our extremists, Bush/Cheney/ and their neocon radicals, kill them and their extremists who are actually very similar in many ways, kill us. The connnection is very clear to those not blinded by the belief that when we do it, it's good.

And yes, in a global capitalist economy it is sane to take the resources of others. You are able to type on a computer on an international network because of this behavior. The Indians were taken from their lands, raped, murdered. Perfectly sane rationalizations. This does not mean we have to agree with it, but it does mean that if we're rational we must accept the rationality of it.

There is nothing sane nor rational about killing UN workers over a book burning that is happening and has been happening all the time (go to YouTube, it's everywhere, predating this nonsense by 3-4 years). Whoever fomented the violence that these people partook in is inescapably insane, there is no way to rationalize it.

You seem to be conflating with morality with rationality.

It would be "immoral" to take someones $10k rolex watch. It could be perfectly rational or sane, however.

Likewise it is immoral to bomb people over oil, if not outright evil. But such acts can be perfectly rational, as oil is needed to keep civilization going, the one that allows people to type on a computer, and post incoherent arguments.

When the system itself is insane, only those who are part of it, believe it is sane.

You are proving my point as did the Magistrate, that the insane system we live in, believed to be sane by its members, (Members of the Mafia believe they are sane also, they need stuff too, other people's stuff but hey, they are entitled) due to its extremist nature, obviously causes blowback. So that insanity is very much connected to what should be the predictable results.

All I'm getting is watered down nonsense, words losing their meaning entirely. I gave you examples about rationality vs insanity. They're as you would observe the examples, not as the person perpetuating the examples sees them.

We are making a judgment statement about someone else, not ourselves. I judge those who are killing people over burnt books as insane. I judge those steal oil in a global capitalist world with the need to control oil resources as sane.

Theft is the whole point of capitalism.

millions of people for your own selfish reasons ~ Capitalism! But it is insane to kill people for your own selfish reasons ~ Religion. Excuse me if I don't see the sanity in either.

Are you aware of the fact that insane people can be extremely 'rational'? The two are very connected 'rational and insanity'.

Simple logic. One can chose to avoid religion, ignore it completely, wipe it out of ones mind. One cannot chose to avoid capitalism (yet). Until we have an alternative to capitalism we will have to deal with it (and please spare me, there exist no non-capitalist state on the planet, all states are capitalist from the anarchist, logical, scientific perspective, even our wonderful states like Cuba and Venezuela!).

other nations and the need for and the claims of the right to the killing of their citizens, CAN be avoided. But the belief that we are entitled to other people's resources and to kill to get them, is as much of a religion as any belief in any deity. Both are beliefs. Their deities are as real to them as Capitalism's deities, money and power are to them.

Religion is nothing but a belief system. Capitalism, Communism, Fascism, Socialism, all are belief systems that can be avoided. A society has to choose to believe in them in order for them to be acted upon. And societies have proven just how far they are willing to go to defend those belief systems. But none of them is unavoidable. We have successfully avoided Communism in this country eg.

Until we go back to isolated resource states (self-sufficient states that aren't reliant on global trade) the dynamic will always, irrevocably be the same.

This country has avoided "communism" as practiced by the rest of the world, but corporate welfare is effectively no different than state control of property. Monopolies have it in their control either way. Corruption exists either way (and don't tell me the "communisms" or "socialisms" of the world aren't corrupt because I am not stupid).

As long as capitalism exists class will exist.

As long as class exists it will always be sane to steal. Always. I have no problem admitting to theft from capitalism, the last time I did that, however, my post was deleted.

But slaughtering people for profit is not sane, no matter what system it is done in the name of. Although I hesitate to give such people a possible insanity defense, and in any civilized country people who kill for profit and lie to get support for their murderous wars should be prosecuted.

What you seem to be saying is that under the system we live under, nothing can be defined as criminal. We have laws, which you appear to be saying are worthless. Anything done in the name of Capitalism can be rationalized. Yes, it can, but it can also be prosecuted do long as the laws remain on the books.

Edited to add, and even if they escape consequences in this country, their actions do have consequences elsewhere, such as the kind of extremism that has escalated across the globe since the war in Iraq. Which is why THAT extremism is connected to the extremism you are speaking about. Because as you define Capitalism, it IS extremism.

And yet you think that I seem to be arguing that nothing can be defined as criminal!

Sane and rational are not the same as ethical or moral or just! Understand that! I gave the rolex example. Stealing a rolex from some rich snobby person can be a perfectly sane behavior, but it is also criminal under the system as it is defined!

I would of course argue that capitalism itself is insane, and that everything that stems from it is insane (including the state which it necessitates), however, that would be a niche view, and it wouldn't be applicable, and I would be intellectually dishonest to say so. So I will meet you halfway and completely agree that capitalism (that is, statism as it is practiced globally; remember, I do not believe there exists any socialist or communist state on the planet) is certainly extremism.

That does not make it insane, nor does it make the acquisition of resources which capitalism is based upon insane. It's perfectly reasonable, for instance, to demand a renter sign a contract that leaves no power with them in the property which they are inhabiting (and no state is immune from this except where people are allowed to ignore the whims of the state through squatting). Indeed, on this very forum there are at least a handful of landlords who have no problem subjecting people to the theft known as "rent," and they will in fact mock you (me) if you tell them that their use of rent is insane.

It's a stupid concept any way you look at it.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

progressives, wherever it occurs.

The idea that until Americans behave perfectly at all times everywhere, we don't have the right to "judge" an outrage against civil liberties and human rights anywhere (save in the United States itself), is simply a mistaken one.

But therein lies the problem with ALL religion

They think "their reality" is more real than our reality

And of course, their reality does not exist - it's smoke and mirrors

is no different. Slaughtering people is madness period.

not better but different. and not on topic. but thanks to your as always perspicacious contribution.

without fear of direct retaliation.

:sarcasm:

Cuz it's a fucking book.

Bring it on!

to dim bulbs like myself. :banghead: The tag really shouldn't have been necessary.

It is just that so much on DU infuriates me these days.

Well said. I salute you.

The right to offend religious people is a vital one.

There is no right not to be offended.

that battle on the frontlines in the Middle East. Your conviction will mean more.

Personally, I see a world in the future where the next Super Power will educate their people to be less insular, and more understanding of the intricacies of culture. In other words, they will remain a Super Power because they are smart enough not to be pulled into these tar baby issues.

regardless.

Inciting violence- pretending to be superior to another group of people, and thinking that by burning a book you are honoring "your" god, is also pretty insane.

imo.

I completely agree with you on mobs. When humans pack together, we become pretty savage.

But don't worry, the cultural relativists who think cheesecake filled pancakes and consenting adult porn should be illegal, but FGM is a practice deserving "cultural respect and understanding" will be along to lecture you about how reasonable rioting over cartoons and murdering over burnt books actually is.

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

And it likely elicited the type of response the burner intended.

Is that really so hard to grasp?

Long-standing anger over civilian casualties has been heightened by the Koran burning and the recent publication of gruesome photographs of the body of an unarmed Afghan teenager killed by U.S. soldiers.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/asia-pacific/afghan-police-arrest-suspected-mastermind-of-un-attack/article1966938/

You're right, there are most likely multiple causes for what happened. But nonetheless, the book burning was a part of it.

but still they didn't kill soldiers. In the end, it was just a mindless bloody mob.

Such is the reasoning of a conservative.

horrifying than another.

who got just what he wanted. :grr:

of some of the responsibility. I know what you mean though, and I agree.

people killing people over a delusion- insane.

Thanks for your concern.

:shrug:

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

"Insane" is understandable as a gut-level definition. If the same thing happened in the US, I doubt the killers would get away with pleading insanity. Legally, insanity is a defense that absolves a person of some degree of responsibility.

On the other hand, in geopolitics, "insane" means "can't be reasoned with". I'm not in favor of that particular view.

It seems to me, unless we are discussing the behavior of sociopaths or murder related to something like gang violence, that "delusions" of various sorts are always involved -- his political views don't accord with mine, his religious beliefs don't accord with mine, he's from a racial background that I perceive to be inadequate, and so on.

murdering cuz your holy book got burned is Michelle Bachmann batshit crazy

But I know what you mean.

The same right that gives Terry Jones the ability to burn the Quran gives me the right to call him a xenophobic waste of ape sperm.

When your 1st amendment rights cause the deaths of others, they are no longer rights, they are wrongs.

This is just one more step to the all out war the far right religious fuck wads want with Islam. There people want Armageddon NOW and think god is on their side. I just wish those than incite this bullshit paid the price instead of others

and wrong as it was, it was still Jones' right to burn. You seem to completely ignore the murderous fuckwads that did the slaughtering over a book being burned. that is far worse than burning a book.

We know the killers are nuts, that goes without saying. But Terry Jones is OUR nut, and needs to be condemned to the fullest by US.

We get attacked on 9/11 by fanatical monotheists for our secualar infidel culture, then our fanatical monotheist faction jumps in to claim offense and assert that the planes crashed into Jesus (when not saying it's God's punishment for our secular infidel culture).

Fanatical monotheists in israel fight every effort at peace with the palestinians, and constantly provoke Arabs by building on ever more west bank territory.

you're right, they want Armageddon, the Rapture, etc. but the thing is, THE JUDGEMENT IS NEVER COMING. THE MESSIAH IS NEVER COMING OR RETURNING.

in 6 billion years the world with be consumed by the sun going supernova, sure, but there won't be a sentient being alive that remembers jesus or muhammad. or yahweh. or buddha.

well, i wish they'd remember buddha.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

You can tell by the way they feel. Burning a cross, another group's holy book, or painting a swastika on a synagogue are all the same and incite further crimes. I only know that I'm back to worrying about the safety of my children and grandchildren in the country because of the type of like thinkers Jones emboldens on this side of the ocean.

but burning a book- any book- is protected by the 1st amendment. So is "piss christ" and the numerous examples of other "insults" to religion.

I share your concerns about people I care about when religious extremists like Jones are tolerated in any way.

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

a pointless act intended to inflame.

he did not cause them to kill anyone. they did that all by themselves.

I simply stated the act to be insane, not causitive. Have you seen this particular idiot on the TV thingy? I have, and I stand by my diagnosis.

I can think in color, not just black and white.

but especially when it is marketed as Humanitarian Aid.


...but I admit, doing it for burning a book is especially disgusting.
Apparently, those who did the slaughtering think that book is pretty important.
I guess they just don't have our Western Sensibilities.

more like humanitarian sensibilities. and yes, war is disgusting too.

Cruise & Travolta are a comin' for ya!

a US preacher burned a koran.

is reporting that that was the direct cause of the mob's anger. Was there more to it than that? Probably.

http://news.google.com/nwshp?hl=en

& every other fucking lie that got us into a war for the last 100 years.

unrec this stupid post 100 times if i could.

.

It just sometimes isn't what you agree with.

Do you think it was a coincidence that a US preacher put the Koran on 'trial' and burned it, and then in the Muslim world, there were fatwas issued against Jones and Muslims acted out angrily against Westerners?

Was it the sole cause, no, in the same way the Ferdinand assassination wasn't the sole cause of WWI. But it was the spark.

Most liberals work on the assumption that the root cause of all problems must be Westerners, and far too unwilling to condemn Islamic fundamentalism.

That's why the founders went out of their way to make sure it played no part in government.

I don't think I've seen a single depiction of that in the MSM.

who call themselves Taliban, or Al Quaeda...

Of course, two wrongs do not make a right. I was horrified as well.

We have been occupying their country and killing THEIR people for how long now? People are People...you reach your end! The book burning gave them all they needed to do such an atrocious thing. (humbly speaking/typing... )

and it occurred right after 3 Mullahs implored the crowd to take action re the Koran burning.

.... as poking a poorly caged bear with a stick.

you might want to rethink that.

... for "asking for trouble".

Of course, maybe you are aware and maybe you are not, the religious fundamentalists in this country sincerely believe that Islam is a violent religion and the the Koran is a violence-inspiring document.

I doubt it is any worse than the old Testament, but THAT is what these people think.

By performing this action and stimulating this response, I doubt it was anything less than a calculated action to "prove" their point.

and no, it's no worse than the old Testament, but it's still not a good metaphor. And there's still no excuse for the bloody minded mob. One doesn't have to rise to every bit of bait thrown out.

... I think both sides are despicable, a pox on both their houses.

Sensibilities, rights, religion, whatever..none of them, none, are an excuse for killing.

Actually..

You know what?

Anyone proposing that we give up freedom to pander to freaks can

GO FUCK THEMSELVES!!!

IN THE ASS!!

WITH BROKEN GLASS!!!

Have I made myself clear?

:thumbsup:

And I agree

nt

but if you want to take it literally what the fuck can I do about it?

High and mighty people sit on really tall fences.

If you do think they're comparable to animals then your point fails because they aren't.

If you don't think they're comparable to animals then your point fails because refusing to back down when threatened by an animal is not the same as refusing to back down when threatened by a human.

I'm in no way sitting on a fence: Pastor Jones was not responsible for what happened; the murderers were.

The people who killed the UN workers are murderers who exploited their religion to act out in hate.

It still doesn't help to agitate a group a people who consider their holy book to be the word of god.

Sorry my metaphor insulted your literal brain.


You are a nit picker and I am done with you.

and then hiding behind "freedom of speech" is sociopathic and cowardly.

I deal with legally insane people twice/week right now. I have to draw blood, often from mentally ill people who may or may not have remembered to take their medication.

I am very gentle and very careful. I certainly do not do or say anything that I suspect might provoke them, for any reason least of all in the name of exercising my right to free speech.

And I reeeeelly hope that whoever last spoke to them before they walked in the hospital door refrained from provoking them while exercising their right to free speech.

Because, quite frankly, if I end up injured or killed by a provoked, irrational person, I will blame the provoker more than the mentally ill. One really could not help themself. The other took advantage of the first. And I end up paying the price.

interesting analogy...so in your mind the mob was "insane" -- or at the very least irrational?

or irrational behavior. Mob behavior tends, by its nature, to be irrational and insane. (That would include the mob at Walmarts that trampled the worker to death. Insane behavior to save a few pennies).

I also expect that people who have had their lives, homes and families bombed into oblivion have in many cases been driven to the edge and beyond and be particularly vulnerable to acting in crazy ways. They have nothing left to lose but their dignity, and burning their holy book was a direct assault on that.

I also think it is insane or irrational to deliberately and knowingly provoke people who are insane. And I think to do so, knowing that *others* will face the consequences while you hide behind the law and laugh, is disgusting and also criminal behavior because I think it is tantamount to yelling fire in a crowded theater and laughing while the frightened mob tramples each other trying to escape.

with me. he has right to do it. we have right to be disgusted by him.

that operates a for-profit furniture business & uses its church to store the goods.

he has a long history (30+ years) of work for maranantha ministries, an outpost of psyops wing of the christian far-right.

which might explain why this tax-cheating fraud & his dinky fraudulent church get major media coverage, yet none of those intrepid national reporters manage to find information that local reporters find so easily.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=794849&mesg_id=794849

pointless. I saw the pictures from Germany today. Insanity is the new normal.

:shrug:

I couldn't have said it better myself...I really couldn't have...bravo, I think you nailed it there

and that is the problem with what occurred

One of the best lines from Huckleberry Finn, IMO.

"The pitifulest thing out is a mob;...they don't fight with courage that's born in them, but with courage that's borrowed from their mass."

get people in a crowd, especially, and the tensions build and the reactions will get more violent with every word....

However, I like to think I am not like this

ButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButBut
ButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButBut
ButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButBut
ButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButBut
ButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButButBut




:eyes: