If you had the opportunity, would you leave the USA, given where we are and are headed?

I've been thinking about this for some time now. I have always fought back - the assassinations and civil rights struggles in the '60s, Vietnam, the Reagan years, the war in Iraq, and on and on. But I have never seen a more bleak time as now, as all assets are concentrated in the hands of a few, unions are destroyed and it's only a matter of time until the New Deal is unraveled.

In 1973 I spent considerable time as a college student in Germany. I made very good friends there and they asked me to stay. Instead, I returned to the US to complete my degree and made a pretty good life of it. But if that situation existed now, I don't think I would return.

What say you?

After they pass I'd consider moving to another country.

..that's better than here?

But we shouldn't have to leave. It's the folks who hate all gubmint and want to drown it in a bathtub who should be told to get their unpatriotic asses to Somalia, that Small Gubmint Paradise.

That's what YOU read into it. I just re-asked the question the OP did. He said it was bad here; I asked where would he go that was better than here. Simple.

I guarantee you this: I will look into it in the next few years.

The direction we are going is unacceptable.

There are many places that are as good as the US to live.

It's not where I think would be best--I wanted the posters opinion, 'kay? This is not about where I have traveled or not traveled.

chose to "take it wrong" I don't feel too off base here. Whether intended or not the way you phrased your question implies more then simply asking "Where are you considering going?"

Welcome to DU.

this year. I may end up staying, but I want my options open.

Obviously if you find a remote place with available food, friendly natives, and clean water hordes of others will eventually find it too if things get worse. There is no escape, I believe.

You can escape, but for how long?

I am tired, but I think we have to keep fighting.

If they'd paid just a little better we would be there right now. After doing all of the research, we would definitely go with that option (dh's job experience is always in demand).

Most countries are having their own inner problems, USA is still a great place to live and I will not be forced out of here.

the old saying, "the grass is always greener on the other side", until you get to the other side.

But the choices aren't very numerous:

Canada, N. Europe, Au/NZ, Japan.

I have expat friends in Columbia and Cyprus. They like it, and they don't miss idiocy of the "Greatest Nation on the Planet".

Aw, hells no!

I tried to get people to engage in a general strike after the Bush selection, but was ignored. Disgusted, I left the country and spent most of the Bush years abroad.

If republicans continue to make gains in 2012, and the movement that recently started in Wisconsin fizzles out, I'm definitely planning on leaving again.

maybe i'll send an application for refugee status to North Korea. i'm sure they treat American defectors real nice over there.

which is almost not the USA, I would undoubtedly be considering a move. We're far enough away up here that we can stay somewhat detached.

:hi:

I think Alaska should just be another Yukon Territory. :)

Hell, I could even learn to say "eh" and pretend to love ice hockey.

Sure wish I had now.
I have spent some time up there and really liked it. People much nicer than here anymore.
Plus I prefer cold weather.

...I know people who have relocated to Thailand and Costa Rica, they love it and they're doing quite well.

However, realistically, don't thinks it's gonna happen for me.

I'll continue to fight the Good Fight here. But I'd be pleased if my children put themselves into the position where they could move away, if they wanted to.

I have absolutely no hope whatsoever in this country. Sadly, no decent country is willing to take me.

but unfortunately the U.S. is stuck with me so I may as well stay and fight for what I believe in. I wish my daughter would get out though.

I have already gone through the trauma of being forced to learn a second language and my brain would not take learning "Quebecois" (husband from Montreal). Just thinking about it, my head hurts!!! If we move is not by choice. I don't want to leave my side of the family behind.

I have to put my papers but need money for the fee.

n/t

I have lots of family in Germany. I just have to learn German.

I am also close to Canada and back around Rev. War times a branch of my family moved there. I bet I could find them and get a sponsorship if it were needed.

Meanwhile I am telling my kid to make sure that he takes some language courses at college and look to do a semester or 2 overseas. That may be where his future job will be.

But if I did, I would go. Sooner than later.

getting better now.

After Fallujah and Qut I don't see a way out of being an American, even if it means being on the losing side for another generation or so.

because I love it there. But I would not leave this country simply to get away from it. This is home.

I see that as an opportunity to move my family there to take up residence. I was thinking about this the other day. America is really falling behind in so many ways. I have never been more concerned about my country. I used be concerned when GWB was president. But when I saw how poorly the Dems governed when they held all three branches...as well as Obama squandering the wave of good will when he first got in office...I am very concerned. I do not want my children to be live like Middle Age serfs.

Having said that, I believe I am too attached to my country and don't think that my kids would want to leave.

I think the next couple of years will tell the tale as to what decision I make.

where our ancestors came from I think I would. They have the health care programs I want and they are way ahead of us in alternative energy and green ideas. However, I doubt that my family could be convinced. I wonder if our ancestors had this much trouble deciding to come here?

But if it weren't for them, or if I could take them with me, I'd go in a heartbeat. This country appears to be headed toward fascism, if we aren't already solidly there. I'd rather raise my children somewhere in a society that values and cares about them. Then if their health fails or some bad luck comes to them after I'm gone, they won't be treated like lazy parasites and reduced to eating cat food or some fate like that.

If I could go, it would probably be somewhere in western Europe.

Why would they? I suppose if you have lots of money it is possible. So what do all of the poor in America do who cannot even move from their city much less to another country? The YOYO (You're On Your Own) philosophy along with the Everybody for Themselves attitude is very much at the heart of what Republicans and the Teahadists believe. I would hope that as Democrats we would have more morals than escape what we see as a sinking ship and leave behind to fend for themselves those who are less fortunate. That's really sad.

The battle with republicans and teabaggers will be won by moderate democrats and democratic leaning independents. The Left and conservative democrats can't be counted on in a life and death knife fight. Good of you to bring up the people that will suffer and likely perish if democrats cut and run, poor people that even now do not have a voice.

...and their friends won't be won at all! The programs
"moderate democrats and democrat leaning independents"
favor are the exact same programs 1960s and 1970s
REPUBLICANS favored.

Tesha

.. I was going to say the same thing. WE ELECTED A PRESIDENT, A SENATE, and a HOUSE and we GOT NOTHING, FUCK-ALL.

I'm not sure what this fellow is talking about, I get it when the game is rigged totally and there is no point playing as though it isn't.

I love the British Isles and would relocate probably to Scotland.

While I'm stuck here I'll fight but frankly, I would take an opportunity to leave if I had a means of suitable income at my destination. I'd have to know someone there first.

no puppies around to kick? bye asshole.

Mr. Tesha planned his last several jobs specifically
with the thought that they could lead to international
relocation but unfortunately, so far, that hasn't worked
out. But if offered a chance to relocate to one of Western
Europe's social democracies, we'd be gone faster than you
can say "Eurozone".

France, anywhere in the Nordic countries, Switzerland,
Northern Italy, the Netherlands, maybe Belgium or the
UK, we wouldn't be choosy. Even most of Canada would
be fine; we've visited a fair amount of Canada with
that thought in mind.

We can't get to any of these places on our own, though.
We're too old and don't have enough capital to buy our
way in; it would depend upon using our (good) skills to
get a job and then relocating in.

Franky, America is well on its way to the dustbin of
history and I don't think it will be climbing back
out again; it simply doesn't want to!

Tesha

You can run, but you cannot hide.

It is coming.

great beer, good medical, jobs, what else could you ask for?

You forgot hockey.

Another "democracy" with rigged elections.

Canada? Maybe. If my adult sons would go with me.

I'd rather stay and fight, if I thought there we could make a difference.

But I'm afraid that if I try to here in the states, I won't get the loans I need to do so. I'm looking at Germany and possibly the Netherlands as places where I could set up shop.

Both are excellent places to live.

within 10 miles of us. Family is very important to us, but if we could ALL manage it, I would leave most definitely. But they have jobs with kids in school so it's not possible. I would hate not seeing the grandkids grow up.

But then, given what is happening here now, perhaps it WOULD be better if we could make the change. I don't know this country anymore and I've ALWAYS been a political activist. Now, I have no answers for what is going on and most certainly don't know HOW it can get fixed. We are pretty screwed and it's getting worse!!

SO SAD!

We'd love to live there. But it is a bit close to the
United States and if things really go bad, it may be
too close.

It's also at major risk from the Cascadian Subduction
Zone.

Then again, if Cascadian independence ever comes about,
there'd a real plus to being in Vancouver.

Tesha

RICOLA............. :)

plus i have 4 kids and 2 grandchildren. so, no, probably not, as things stand.

We are off to Taiwan on May 3rd for a month. Hubby grew up there, and since they instituted 'Universal Health Care' a few years ago, he has to fly in every two years to keep it active.
Pros are cheap cost of living (especially rent) and the almost free (@$20 p.m.), very good health care. Hubby speaks the language and still has friends/contacts there - no job needed as we are retired. Huge expat community and great transportation system. As a spouse I have no problems gaining permanent entry and qualifying for the benefits.
Cons(for me)are the lack of language skills and the weather (not sure I can take that heat and humidity anymore).

My first choice is France. I've still got my UK (Euro)passport, and as a Euro, can live in any Euro country. We'd have to live in the UK for a short time to get hubby sorted on paperwork, but that's no hardship. Then off to France! We've spent 4-6 weeks a year there over the past 10 years so know we both adore it. Pros - everything. Cons - hubby does not speak the language - I can get by and by week four am usually pretty fluent. We've been looking online at property in the Perigord/Dordogne area and can get an acre or two of rural land with a funky little house for a very affordable price (after we sell up here).

If all else fails, we'll just live in the SW UK (Devon or Cornwall), but the UK is incredibly expensive now and I'd rather live in France anyway.

Canada, which was our first choice as my husband's family all live there (Vancouver), and we have had a cabin there for years, won't take us - we are too old. They do not have a retirees program and we do not have the spare $800,000 to buy our way in :crazy: We can spend up to 6 months a year there, but no more - it is no longer enough.

So much research and planning to do, but we decided over xmas that we will do it - we've just had enough. Our driving force at our ages (58&62)is health care and growing old gracefully - the US is neither the place to be sick or old.

It's over. We have failed to keep the Republic. The fascists have won and it's only going to get worse. I would love to move to Norway.

All 4 grandparents were born there and I have lots of family there. I'm closing in on retirement and am considering buying a home (first/only? second?) there.

Right now, of course, the collapse of Nokia is
having major negative effects on the high-tech
sector of Finland's economy.

One also has to be psychologically prepared to
live at high latitudes where the winter nights
are long and the days are dark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rwc3VGvlRY

Tesha

and I am taking it. We are building a home in Ecuador and plan on moving sometime in the next 3 years.

It's called "Common Security Clubs" and is a coming together in close community where you live, for economic security and safety. Many communities have chapters, often sponsored by Unitarian churches.

Just google Common Security Club.

Wasn't going to happen with me being over 50, chronic illness, and not financially independent.

Now, just getting out of Idaho, on the other hand...

We've discussed leaving for a while, particularly to Germany (spouse is fluent, I'm learning). The biggest issue is finding work: Mr. Laurel is about to finish a law degree, and I'm a librarian and editor. Though I'd hate to be that far from my family, it's not like I get to see them that often: we live about 1000 miles apart, and I don't have enough leave at work to visit more than twice a year.

straight to teabagger Hell.

We are admonished a thousand times a day that Obama is the best Democratic President we could ever hope for. And we are also told the current Democratic Party is as liberal as possible under the circumstances... If that is true -for whatever reasons the admonishers have in mind- that describes an UTTERLY HOPELESS situation.

So with the "Democrats" you go to Hell on a tramp steamer, with frequent engine breakdowns and recurring unhygienic conditions on all decks and general disarray. It's possible the Captain can expect a large payday from the ship's owners for intentionally driving the hull onto a reef in an insurance/writeoff scam. No one knows if he is part of the plot or just drunk. The passengers wander about and forget the ultimate destination, while the crew routinely deceive them about where they are going, or else they're too busy stripping copper and brass from the ship's engine and fittings that they can't remember themselves. The trip is so nauseating it actually makes you look forward to disembarking onto the hot coals waiting at the end. With the Republicans, you go straight to Hell on the Concorde. No confusion or waiting.

Both are budget-busting, heavily polluting, elitist, and obsolete.

I have the opportunity, but I'd rather stick around and fight where it's heading.

but leaving family, particularly elderly parents, would be prohibitive. :(

I think this nation is lost. Corporations and rightwing extremism have won. We're screwed.

Both are beautiful cities I wouldn't mind living in.

I would keep my citizenship but I would leave in a heartbeat if I had the means.

damned student loans! Thankfully I'm a dual citizen so no visa's necessary for me in the eurozone.

Canada, Western Europe, maybe even Costa Rica or Australia or New Zealand. I see very troubled times ahead. I see Obama not re-elected and a neo-fascist a la Governor Walker elected in his place followed by civil unrest which will make the 60's look like summer camp.

we spent most of the Bush years in the UK and Ireland. Lots of pros, lots of cons, but we prefer it here, largely due to the expense of living over there. To get a decent paying job in the UK you pretty much have to work in London, which means you have to live somewhere within its orbit, which means you're paying an absolute ton of money in rent/purchase or you're spending hours a day on the train. Ireland right now is in pretty dire straits economically, and suffers from the same issue that you would have to be in/near Dublin to find good work,and it's very expensive and they don't have near the infrastructure the UK or US has. That said, I'd definately live in Ireland again; the UK, eh, not sure. The main things I miss about the UK are the beer and the TV (believe it or not, TV in the UK is awesome).

Its ice floes for us.

I am looking to Canada..as it is visiting distance from my homeland.

I'd love to leave, but no country in the world will take an average working class American. People who are bi-lingual, who have multiple PhD's, or who are mega wealthy (like Oprah) could emigrate somewhere.

I think it may be easier to escape from North Korea than it is to escape from the US.

All of the above look appealing. I'd prefer New Zealand, but it's the most remote.

But I hear it's impossible to get citizenship.

but it's bad there too, so dunno. I'd love to leave but at this point I see it more likely that we'd retire abroad.

But do you really want to live there and raise a family. Let's not forget...most peoples children would not be able to attend University after graduating high school. The thinning of the academic herd starts quite a bit earlier than here in the States, where kids often have a chance to prove themselves, in High School or even Junior College. Germany? Applying to University and getting in without a waiting period of many semesters after finishing Gymnasium(high school) is fairly difficult. Particularly in popular majors, you literally need a perfect score of 1 or 1,1 ( 4.0). I have a niece who is considering sending her eldest who is fluent in english to come to America for his last year of high school. He's a bright kid, but was diagnosed with ADD very late into high school and

That and their social ghettos, make it fairly impossible for many of their minority populations to get ahead. Does anyone really believe the way France is handling it's large muslim population is equitable? Separate but equal comes to mind.
I know people will argue that tuition makes it difficult for many Americans to attend college... but there are always ways to do it. I went to community college and worked, got a GSL and transferred to a four year University.

Sure America has it's problems, but I've always chosen to live in very liberal states.... life has been good for this gnarly old long haired hippie :)

everyday, you back still aches, money is still tight, your boss is still a prick, your neighbor's dog barks at 4am...that's the main lesson we learned living overseas: life is life no matter where you live it (if that makes sense).

That is a HUGE factor in my desire to emigrate.

it's not all rosey either. We're not used to waiting for stuff, and it's not like they're paying nothing for health insurance. Monthly premiums are not low, they are of course mandated... so you don't have the choice to opt out. I hear my niece bitching, her daughter had to wait six months for a tonsillectomy...missed tons of school. She was young so it wasn't considered a necessity...her mother in law at 80 had to wait almost a year for her knee operation. Of course we can argue she got it in the end. But the rich in Europe all have private insurance...so they don't wait.

No system is perfect... at least we are now making strides to close some of the gaps.

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... while there are literally hundreds of ghetto's in large cities all across the US where the police even doesn't dare go into. I remember watching a tv program in which an American delegation was shown a Dutch 'ghetto' and to them, it was like paradise compared to what they thought when they heard the word "ghetto". You criticize France for what you call "separate but equal" treatment of minorities. I do admit there are huge problems with minorities in France, but how is this different from the US? How many millions of undocumented workers (mostly Mexicans or Latinos) do shitty jobs for shitty payment and live in poverty in the US? How is poverty in the US, compared to poverty in Europe and what is the US government doing to battle it, compared to European governments? I want to bet Europe will look much better in comparison.

Then you talk about going to university/college. You say most Europeans can't go to college after high school. That's absolutely not true. I don't know where you got that crazy idea. Your anecdotal evidence means nothing. In most of Europe, children from all social classes get to go to college, because they get a governments' grant or subsidy. In the US, going to college is only for the rich, or for those who are good at sports and get a grant that way. Or they have to go in the army to get their education paid for.

Please, no more nonsense.

in a heartbeat.

if I were even 15 years younger - I would leave this open-air lunatic asylum ASAP. No reason to stay here - no family anymore and the insanity is getting too thick to deal with. If I had any head for languages I'd put Germany and France on the list as well.

Or even Germany. My husband's family is from there originally. I think he's 2nd or 3rd generation American.

if I had the $$$

But lately I've seriously thought about it. It is depressing to think about except for Carter, Clinton, and Obama, I've lived with Repub Administrations. LBJ was great, on social issues as it turned out, but I don't remember because I was too little. In my lifetime, there has been precious little movement on the social/equality front, definitely not enough to suit me.

I've been to Europe and Canada so those are the most I'm familiar with. I speak some German and can get by. I read and understand French but have not had practice speaking it. If I had to though, I could get better at both in a hurry.

I think I would seek out France or Germany, perhaps the Scandinavian countries as well as the Czech Republic. Canada is a possibility. I would like to say the UK, it would be natural of course, but I've never been there (yet!).

All of this is speculation of course, since I lack money now for such a move. Plus I'm tied to this home for now.