Then let them see what passes for 'harmless fun' in GenPop.

this stuff. Incredibly tragic. They're entering adolescence, with brain development to continue over a decade before adult development is reached. And then what will society have?

Because his father was killed in a cave in.

They are old enough to know better.

come to discuss. Other forums are available where reactionaries gather to react.

The topic was trying children as adults. What these children did was evil, absolutely displayed the depraved indifference to life worded in the laws of many states, and we can probably reasonably assume a big part of its appeal was that they knew it was wrong.

But they are not adults. The chances are very good that if they WERE adults they would not have done this. And we absolutely know that the way adolescents think, understand moral issues, interpret the world and interact with it (react!) are very, even often bizarrely, different from they way they will as adults.

To apply standards appropriate to what an adult mind is supposed to be to those still developing is miscarriage of justice before it even starts. It's just plain horribly wrong.

Now, what we DO about children who hurt others is a different matter. Trying children as children does not mean that, when found guilty, it's necessarily appropriate to give them a lecture and send them back out into society.

The argument you put forth then magically morphs into an overall lack of accountability.

If you want them tried as children, fine. But since they are then obviously children who lack sufficient facualties, they should be incarcerated at a minimum until they are 21, and no longer children

Then evaluate them and re-asses. If they are still monsters, back into their cage. I could live with that. Others will cry how that denies then a chance and will only make them career criminals.

That's why a lot if us say fuck it. Try them as adults.

than the conservatives yammering angrily that murderers are running around the streets imagine. At least they do in those states where a great deal of thought has been given to this, and even some budget allocated to trying to do right. This has to include a humane and, as much as possible, effective raising of children in custody to responsible adulthood.

Still lots of room to advance. We really need further advances in evaluation of mental conditions, and laws have a whole lot of catching up to do to even today's level of knowledge. We didn't begin to understand how different adolescent thinking was until recently, much less have time to rework laws that have developed over hundreds of years and the systems that execute them. I don't remember which state has to deal with the current reality of these boys.

Your grandfather at least had precious little time for running around with bad influences, reminding me that that was at least to some degree the case for most children before the modern era. Work, almost always physical, filled a lot of hours each day while they finished growing up.

That’s why juvenile courts exist; we acknowledge immaturity and the possibility of reformation. Yeah, they might be lost causes, but they might not. Putting them in the adult system would seal their fates.

a highway overpass onto a passing car.

They knew what they were doing, and they knew it was wrong.

Somebody above mentioned bloodlust, and I understand why. I don't want them put to death. I don't want anyone put to death. But they can't get off with a slap on the wrist and an expunged record when they turn 21.

Yeah, it's a heinous crime, but children this young don't belong in the adult court system. We used to know that.

They are punks, who thought it was "funny" to pull this stunt that killed a guy.

They deserve to be tried as adults.

Simply calling them "punks" doesn't change that fact. Nothing you say will change the fact they are children.

I get people's blood lust, I just don't share it. That is the only reason to define them as something they clearly aren't.

with a separate juvenile justice system? If you are going to make exceptions why would there be any reason to have a distinct system?

A child being tried as an adult is never predicated on "they deserve" it (see Kent v. United States). You are merely (though accurately) illustrating the difference between justice and revenge.

I hope the judge throws the book at them!

They are old enough to know what they did was wrong and could result in serious injury or death.

Much as it pains me to say this, but due to the seriousness of the crime, they should be tried as adults.

My heart goes out to the victim and the family.

It's not "these days".

Cincinnati has put up inward-curving 12' high fences on overpasses that cross I-71 & I-75 in "distressed" neighborhoods to address this.

There was a dirt road that served as the main throughfare and got a good amount of traffic. Me and other boys in the ten-twelve age range used to hide in the nearby woods and throw rocks into the air toward the road when we heard a car coming. We didn't hit much, but occasionally would hear a rock clang off a car. My parents found out about what we were doing and that was the end of that behavior. As an adult I shudder to think of the damage and even loss of life or an eye those rocks could have caused. I think the only way to stop kids from doing stuff like that is explain to them early that things they don't think do damage can be extremely dangerous and they they should avoid games where they are playing with other people's safety or lives.

When I was in high school, a younger brother of one of my good friends threw a water balloon the size of a cantaloupe at my car as I was driving down the street. The windshield of my 1965 Pontiac Catalina shattered, and my passenger was damned lucky that she ducked when she saw it coming our way. He was just fooling around, but could have caused serious injury.

and the last part that develops is the part that says "That would be a really stupid thing to do."

I doubt these little idiots gave any thought to how serious the consequences of their actions could be. Does it excuse them? No, and they should get the juvenile court book thrown at them. I also hope that this story continues to get a lot of coverage - especially their punishment because that might keep some other little fools from doing the same thing.

Throwing a sand bag onto cars on a freeway sounds premeditated to me.

but was this a internet inspired "prank"... were they recording the incident on their cell phones so they could post it later or even live streaming the event (hoping to show the driver freak out over getting their window smashed or even possibly wrecking their car)?

too bad they didn't have something else to do that day.

face the full consequences of their actions. If they were in fact videoing the incident then it was 100% premeditated. Reckless disregard of the safety of others.

Gets to the matter of defining them as anything but children.

Nice to see some real progressive thought in this thread.

...If you believe the leniency is called for to improve rehabilitation, why wouldn't that apply to an adult doing the same thing?

Children who are charged as adults have been found to have the same mental capacity/understanding of what's required for their own defense as adults who are found incompetent to stand trial.

...and I could debate Watergate with any adult and hold my own.

Too bad not everyone had your upbringing, I guess?

See my post about throwing rocks as a kid. My parents expected us to respect other people's rights, but being poor, they spent a lot of hours working. When we did do something that was wrong, they dealt with it after the fact. Maybe those boys on the overpass didn't mean to hurt anyone, but they were surely ignorant of what the physics of a 5 pound bag dropped from 14 feet onto a car moving at 40 plus miles per hour is like. Something that seemed funny and harmless to them was in fact mega dangerous for any vehicle that they hit.

and yet we learned right from wrong and the consequences of our actions. I remember by immigrant dad saying that just because a person is poor doesn't mean they should behave like trash or live in trash.

Look like you were taught up front before you did something wrong. Some kids are not that lucky.

I'm not surprised at all that you are either unwilling or unable to discern the relevant legal difference, and predicate your entire premise on your own, anecdotal upbringing.

Your visceral reactions have little place in a post-modern judicial system.

but that doesn't change the fact from a scientific stand point the rational part of a teen’s brain isn’t fully developed and won’t be until age 25 or so. https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/encyclopedia/content.aspx?ContentTypeID=1&ContentID=3051 . I realize it can be very satisfying to indulge in emotional thinking, but I hope you aren't responsible for the administration of justice in any capacity anywhere.

There are good people and there are bad people, and I do not believe the gulf between them can normally be bridged.

I realize this is not a popular view here, but so be it.

spent around the malignant.

You won’t convince me that anyone who thinks it’s funny to drop a sandbag onto a speeding automobile from an overpass has any capacity for decency. A percentage of humans are always going to be fundamentally broken, and pretending that they can be fixed is an exercise in self-delusion. If you’ve made it to that age and still have a depraved indifference to human suffering then I firmly believe you are a hopeless case and should be isolated from the general population for the greater good.

I did some things as a teen that I would never contemplate as an adult because I realize that they are very dangerous. I turned out ok. I am not defending those boys, they should pay for what they did, but authorities should make an effort to determine whether a fundamentally good kid or two went wrong on that overpass and did something horrible that will be regretted for life. Yes, the outcome of their actions was tragic, but to take a knee jerk lock them up period mindset toward them out of the gate is equally tragic. I would love to see every parent teach their children to respect the rights and safety of others, but some parents are either too busy or too clueless to do that.

...but describing the reaction to a premeditated violent action as "knee jerk lock step" seems just as reflexive as the people you're criticizing.

I was just relating my time as a teen, what I did and observed others do. My late teens were pretty disciplined, but earlier, I did some things that could have hurt people, as an adult I think of that and would never let my kids do that stuff if I had kids. Sometimes good kids get swept up with sociopaths because they don't know better.

What age does one become incapable of change? What crimes can we use to determine somebody isn't capable of being fixed as you put it? Murder? Rape? Torture? Robbery? Shoving an old person?

People are more complex than you seem to realize. How do you explain that some murders have happy families that they love?

"I realize this is not a popular view here..."

Because there's no objective data to support your premise in totality (and science doesn't really care if you're popular or not...).

I disagree.

as inhibitions toward behavior, such as this, are unwrapped, it becomes very difficult to put them back. The question always comes back to, is it inherited behavior or conditioned behavior. ... were they predisposed to this behavior. What solicited this behavior to come out. I really believe some people are simply born to be evil and bad. I'm not saying that is 100% true with these kids ... I'm just saying it exists IMO.

Some people who do minor things can be turned to the right path.

That young person person who has petty theft and lots of vehicle violations because they just don’t care can be turned around if they are caught young enough and the right measures and intervention taken- if they have a family that cares enough at home.

That person whose crimes are based around some form of substance abuse can be turned around if their underlying substance absuse issues are treated and managed.

But there is a percentage of the criminal class that are what would describe as “feral humans” for a lack of a better term. They don’t care about right or wrong. They don’t care about who or what they harm on the way to get what they want. Mostly male, what they care about is where they are going to get high or drunk, fed, entertained and find sex that day. That’s it. If they have to steal, harm others, destroy things or even murder to make those things happen they will. They don’t care about getting arrested or going to jail they see it as the same kind of inconvenience on their life as most people see paying their taxes, something that you just have to do. Next year or next month are abstract ideas, they are living just for the next hour.

They live just on that mentality not unlike a feral cat or dog- in hungry, I want to get laid, I’ll harm anyone who gets in the way of that and do anything to get those. Just add in getting high/drunk to the list of desires. And like the feral dog they will find each other and form packs.

For those kind of people there is no rehabilitation or the most part. I have seen a few turned around finding religion, but it’s rare. They just ride the revolving door of harming society, going to jail, harming society, going to jail until they either end up dead or the system finally locks them away from society long term.

It’s not a mental disorder, but it is a totally different way of thinking. Most of us can’t relate to it because we can’t imagine living like that. That is why so many people will object to describing people like this because they can’t grasp that there are people who will think like that this and who live like this. But to them it’s all they know. It’s how life is. And you can’t get through to them that there is anything more.

This kind of behavior is what you get from the young feral human. Raised without any moral values or any care for others or care if they hurt or killed others. They just cared about if they got entertainment from it, and maybe got videos to get internet fake to maybe attract a sexual partner, only to be used and discarded.

If they put them on trial as juveniles and as a result they are released once they are 18 I would bet that by 19 they will be back in the criminal justice system and by 21 back in jail.

What is the right want to handle them? I don’t know. On one hand the victims deserve justice. On the other they are still young teens. On one hand society needs to be protected from people who have demonstrated they don’t care about harming others for no reason. On the other hand there is a slight chance they won’t harm others again.... it’s a tough call.

3-4 years later and the answers would be obvious. The question is can they really renchanged in those 3-4 years?

So sick of the blood lust.

Whatever happened to laying on the grass and imagining shapes and figures from clouds??

WTF, indeed.

None produce nice SnapChat posts.

These things aren't trendy--fishing, stickball. Movies cost money, and once you've downloaded them all and watched those that your friends and "your" media have decided are important for you to watch they're not novel, fresh, new, exciting. They don't provide sufficient pleasure or excitement. They don't show control over others and defiance of an unjust system by doing things that show disregard for the system and for others. There's no risk-taking involved, allowing young males to demonstrate their superior reproductive worthiness to other young males.

When happiness is the goal, you seek things that make you happy.

When being good is the goal, you try to live in accord with your principles. Oddly, this also routinely produces greater levels of reported and perceived happiness than happiness-seeking does.

Don't worry, be happy.

"Don't owrry, be good"? Screw that.

Doesn’t anyone get that these fools probably have played thousands of hours of violent video games, and their brains have literally been rewired? Life is no more than a video game to many who have grown up that way. It’s like watching Faux News, the brain no longer processes things as it was designed.

Got news for you, a whole generation is like that now, so look out when you drive under bridges. I will retire in the next few years, and it won’t be in the US.

seriously, I don't get it

that derives from sticking firecrackers up cats’ asses or encouraging dogs to fight; some people are naturally indifferent to the suffering of other creatures, and a subset of that group actually gets off on it.

The draw? Seeing someone freak out when something out of nowhere hit their car. It is a dangerous game that kids with too much time on their hands get into. One thing that we never did though was look for large rocks, we took the smallest and if some kid picked up one to large, he was not allowed to throw it - but even with that what we did was horribly dangerous to the motorist, I realize that now as an engineer.

Same as when I threw eggs at cars or when I peed off the catwalk.

Wouldn't do anything for me now that I'm grown, but back then I thought it was just the best!

because it sounds ridiculous

So it might be.

You knew it would be an annoyance or disgusting, but you also knew it would not kill someone.
Nothing of any consequence will happen to these idiots. Each will have a clean record at 21.

If someone ever did that to a member of my family, the legal system would be the least of their worries, by a very large margin.

The motorcycle rider who swerved to avoid our streams could have crashed and been injured or killed. He didn't, but that's not the point. The point is, it was all shits and giggles until the tires started screeching. Then it was serious. We never thought anyone would get hurt. We thought a couple of cars would get wet, a couple of drivers would be mad, and that would be the worst of what could happen. We got lucky.

Sorry

Sandbags are quite heavy.

No fun to lug around.

This was an ugly premedited crime.

The prosecutors will lose. This is Manslaughter 1 at most. More likely Man 2.

Reckless disregard/indifference, not malice.

They didn't trip and accidentally drop a sandbag off the overpass. This was no accident. They brought sandbags to the overpass and planned to hit vehicles with them.

No, it is NOT "kids these days". Teens in my hometown did this 20 years ago with tires and rocks and were sent to jail for it when it went right through a car's windshield killing their infant baby in the back seat. Long before social media and youtube. Everybody knows it's wrong. Small children know this is wrong.

Compassion for the killers is not my first thought (bleeding heart liberals!). The prosecutors said they were planning on trying them as juveniles, not adults. So they'll be out in a few years. Maybe they'll wise up.

It's a new crop of kids every time. It seems like the behavior is something innate in Human Nature - akin to lighting fires.

I presume they don't intend to KILL. Just to see what happens - tempt fate. They have to know it creates dangers for the drivers, even at 13.

Psychologists have studied people who have committed random acts of violence to complete strangers for no apparent motive. There is plenty of stuff published on the subject. The short answer is mental illness. There are more complex answers if you do some googling.

Psychopaths exist. Groups of psychopaths can multiply the danger.

once in the summer, we chucked milk pod seeds at cars at night. because I have uncanny aim, I put one through the passenger window and hit a girl. I was lucky; she wasn't hurt.

I got punished and I deserved it. but we weren't under the influence of a psychopath/mentally ill kid that I can remember. it was more like a group psychosis, where reckless behavior seemed like fun. I wasn't the 1st one to throw a pod, but I joined in.

I guess Cincinnati had the right idea: to make doing so hard kids won't try.

Any reasonable person would know where to draw the line.

a teen started the fire that burned the Columbia Gorge this summer. he knew there was extreme fire danger and tossed firecrackers off a cliff anyway.

one kid will be the "mastermind", yes. I'm unsure if he will turn out to be mentally ill or a sociopath.

and then it will happen again, somewhere else.

Angry they got caught and blaming everyone else for the hole they put themselves in. And it sounds like some here would think they’d have that right.

Teens for murder as children in Ohio?

Life sentence, with the possibility of parole.

the man had a 2 year old child....and these kids (and their families) have to live the rest of their lives knowing they KILLED a man

a tragedy

The ability for parole is probably the major “consession” to being tried for murder as a juvenile?

Honestly, I tend to think that this was premeditated. At that age the older ones at least know what they are doing can cause serious damage...they just can’t wrap their heads around the actual consequences of killing someone.

It’s damn sad and infuriating.

Being they are under 16, any sentence would likely be served in a juvenile facility until they are adults. I would say the chance of parole is pretty much guaranteed given the ages, and barring some damning testimony that shows no remorse or hints to premeditation.

As far as a premeditated charge. That carries a risk of being seen as overcharging. 1st degree murder charges are very difficult to prosecute absent substantial evidence showing the premeditation.

I remember reading something similar months ago. Some teens throwing a bag of sand off an overpass. The other incident also killed someone. I am sure it is somewhere posted in the history of DU. Maybe it was more than six months or less. Whatever, this is the second incident of this.

Very, Very Sad....because the results of doing this, have killed people.....

13 is old enough to know that a fifty pound bag of sand can kill someone when dropped. Even if they didn't intend to kill someone, they still wanted to cause damage to the cars. This form if sociopathic behavior had no place in our society. Lock em up. I can pretty much guarantee these poor misunderstood youths will never contribute anything of value to society.

Sociopaths are extremely attractive to other teenagers because they project an air of confidence about themselves that most kids don't normally have.
These are the kids that pull wings off flies and duct-tape puppies and kittens, who grow up to be abusive and destructive shits to spouses, children, and anyone they feel they have power over. But at age 13 - 17, they're the "kings and queens" of high school.
Find the sociopath, charge him separately from the other kids.
Most teenagers are emotionally stupid and somewhat redeemable; but it's a 99% chance that the sociopath isn't. Sociopaths don't "grow out of it"; while psychopaths can fake it to act as functioning members within the relative ethics of society if they feel it's within their best interest to do so (I have known two - both doctors, for some odd reason), Sociopaths are to emotionally addicted to the emotional "high" of playing God among the rest of us to hold themselves in check.

Just my experience.

Haele

Pretty easy to figure out.

....and was engaged.

That’s the child I give a damn about in this thread. A child growing up without a dad.

Last edited Thu Dec 28, 2017, 12:30 AM - Edit history (1)

The parents do the time, and the kids become wards of the state until they are released.

The parents can be sued, but not prosecuted.

I don't think it is a good idea to go down that road.

This varies from state to state. Why only hold them for monetary value? If there brats can not be held responsible then the parents must be held accountable. The State can oversee the kids while the parents show that if they may not be able to raise a child right, They can serve the time for them.

I remember being 14. Yeah, it's a goofy age. But I would have known damn well that throwing something over a bridge onto cars could kill people. Whether hitting them directly or causing them to lose control of their cars.

Not so sure about 13.

The kids sure didn't run away very fast, if they were still around when the cops got there.

Parenting or liability lessons, posting bail, social service checks, or something.

Don't know about Ohio, but in Michigan there are no blended sentences.

Either they are tried in the juvenile system and released when they turn 18 or tried as adults and put in prison. I would like to see a situation where they serve in the juvenile system until they are 18, and are then transferred to adult prison for additional number of years. As far as i know this option is not available.

120 hours of community service each. 5 years probation.

They ended the existence of a living, breathing human. Everything that man was they snuffed out with their depraved indifference to human life. Probation and a month picking up trash on the side of the freeway are not appropriate punishments for the non-accidental taking of a human life.

And child support/tuition costs? As if. Do you honestly believe these little shits would ever seek gainful employment just to give it away? Puhleeze.