I will never forget what happened, and I am not ashamed of my resentment. If we all keep silent, they will think they were all knights in shining armor for what they did to Al Franken. I called no one's office to tell them off when it happened, but I will not stand for being pressured. They can call me after the primaries, and I will be there for them.

As for pushy fundraisers, I can't STAND them. Gabby Giffords has been a personal friend since before she was shot, and I contribute regularly to her and Mark's gun control movement, but once they had some incredibly pushy guy call me up from a San Francisco number trying to get me to double my yearly contribution. He wouldn't take no for an answer, so he, too get a click for an answer. There are right ways to go about this and wrong ways to go about this. I am confident (though have no statistical proof) that insufferable pushiness is one of the wrong ways.

You may find it satisfying, but I find it self defeating (especially when the mission of this board is to elect more Democrats). I, too, wish that Sen. Franken had been granted the investigation he initially called for, but that didn't happen, and it's time to move forward and take back the Congress.

As for those "pushy fundraisers"...they're trying to help us. Telling them to f**k off may feel good in the moment, but when you come back here and spread that loathsome message to allies & enemies alike, you do more harm than good. I only hope that's not your intent.

I will support and vote for all Dems that have a chance to win a seat.

( and it's hard for a Gamecock to agree with a Tarheel on anything)

see that.

The pushy fundraisers may be trying to help us, but I doubt it. I have met with real fundraisers, people from Emily's list or members of the Senate and the House who call themselves. They are NOT like this. This guy talked like a pro, on commission or something.

As for the bandwidth, I am as enthusiastic as I can be for Democrats who stick up for our PRINCIPLES and do not jump on convenient bandwagons. The first one of this group to say publicly that they regret their haste, and apologizes to Franken for it, gets a check from me. I see them as being far more detrimental to our party and cause than 100 hours of Fox Noise programming. I will tell ANY pushy fundraiser in no uncertain terms that he or she is going about their job in the wrong way, at least with me. They have my records as to what I have contributed in the past. They should know better, and so should the finance chairmen/women of their campaigns. Let the Republicans pull their Roy Moores and Todd Akins. I want Congresspeople who are better than that. If you find the message loathsome, that is regrettable, but I don't think we make progress with the status quo, and the status quo is pretty loathsome as things stand. I contributed four figures to Tammy Baldwin last time. If she wants me to reconsider and tell me why I should do it again, she can call me herself and explain to me what I missed.

How many people outside Wisconsin know the roster of the Wisconsin Democratic Senatorial primary at this point? I surely don't.

chase. There will be no democratic primary challenger to a Tammy. The party will fully support her incumbency.

However, due to the structuring of campaign finance laws, candidates can raise up to a certain amount for the primary and again as much for the general. All candidates know how to play creative bookkeeping to use primary money for the general election.

We agree on that. It is obviously your choice and you seem to be generous and would have had no issue prior giving x2 in the past.

I really think Franken would hate this line of thinking. He knows what we are up against and we need all hands on deck and every advantage.

If you wanted to honor him supporting a democrat is the way to go.

I will not support a candidate in the primary who I think has done Democrats an immense disservice

So, you just basically knee capped the amount you could have given to her. I applaud your prior past generosity and just think if you could afford it as usual you should have maxed out again.

Although I think you might want to give more attention to your commitment for the primary.

What if a candidate you genuinely wanted to win in the 2020 primary did potentially catastrophic disservices to the party during the primary? You know, potentially catastrophic for the general? All those people who voted for Jill Stein because they felt they couldn't vote Democrat are still our there, and most will probably always be just as easily deluded.

I was referring specifically to the 2018 mid-term election cycle, which is what I was solicited for. After all, we don't yet have any declared candidates for the presidency in 2020--fortunately! The last thing I want to have happen is for the Republicans to get a head start on preparing their arsenal for 2020. I don't have an especially lavish lifestyle, so I save a good portion of my disposable income for contributions to causes I believe in. From cancer research to Howard Dean's march against human trafficking in Thailand to Cecile and PP to Democratic candidates on the local level up to national. But it's not like I pull in half a million a year (and German taxes take out 50% of my income), so I do have to pick and choose. Actually, that's not a bad thing. It forces me to examine and set priorities. The Franken fiasco has reset some of mine, obviously.

I challenged a couple people who felt that way to just learn something about the voting record of even one of the senators they claimed to be so disappointed in, but they refused.

Imagine: Wanting to ruin the careers of over 30 Democratic senators on the excuse of being angry that they ruined the career of one. Yet not knowing anything about them or why they did it. Such a viciously casual indulgence of ignorance. Including not even knowing the actual number or names of most, just picking a couple targets to represent all.

Btw, how does joining those who behave in this intensely contemptible manner fit with your hopes for the future of our nation? With your principles, you must very at least be familiar with the voting records of every Democrat you've decided don't meet your standards and are hoping to see lose office in 2018.

And I am person who thought Franken got a raw deal.

Here we back to this gdamnit

they already got theirs, so screw everyone else. It's as though everything is about them, and how they feel. Yuk!

is a key feature of those with radical leanings, and it's why I look very closely at any leader who fires up their enthusiasm. Hostile groups grabbing power from each other to carry out their agenda and nothing but isn't how democracy works. It is how democracy fails.

Notably, they clearly do not see Franken as a leader, only a symbol to be used to attack Democrats. That's demonstrated beyond doubt by this kind of refusal to follow his lead in his level-headed principled commitment to his party and his colleagues.

that often gets posted here is not reflective of liberalism. Posts like the o.p. give cover to those who continually try to divide us against ourselves. I'd expect to see this type of post over at JPR, but the Dem bashing that's allowed to fester here is disheartening, to say the least. We've got much bigger issues than one Senator who'll be replaced by a "Democrat".

Dems ad hoc (And especially not after the "Let's run Al Franken from the Senate" campaign SOME went on). There is a way to ask for contributions. Hell, none of us have money trees growing in our back yards

TOTALLY agree with your sentiments DFW

...who would politely call every so often to let me know I was eligible to donate again and would I mind? I always appreciated their volunteer work and was a regular donor.

Then they hired some hard-sell outfit that was so damn obnoxious and pushy month after month, that I finally told them off, demanded to talk to a supervisor, told the supervisor that I was under no obligation to give my precious bodily fluids away, and on in that vein. Then I called the blood bank office and told them the same, that I Resented being treated like someone with a past-due bill, with the added info that due to my personal health issues I was no longer able to be a blood donor anyway.

I think the people here who are taking offense at your reaction to the hard sell by someone asking you for money are on the wrong track. It is truly counterproductive to treat donors like that.

I won't support or vote for any one who was in the "Franken resign" camp except if he or she is running against a Repuke. They knew what they were doing; now let them savor the consequences.

I'm not for having Republicans replace ANY Democratic Senators. Nothing is worth that.

But if they find themselves abandoned by regular donors in the face of a primary challenger, well maybe it would do them some good to know what it is like to be left in the lurch by people they thought they could always depend on.

and wasting money on challengers when we need every penny to get rid of the GOP and take a majority in order to stop Trump is beyond stupid. Also, you won't vote for Tammy because of some overzealous campaign person? That doesn't even make sense. It makes me wonder what the purpose of this OP is.

That makes two of us.

a Dem...and all...massive sarcasm...this is what I call snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...if you do this then the GOP who engineered the entire Franken debacle win.

There are couple of places that routinely beat up on Democrats, and I expect to see a message like this, but not here. I just hope that the Democrats on this board will ignore messages like yours and focus on the big picture, and not one guy.

It's happened before, and the purity folks are at it again, just in time for 2018. Some of it is from Russian bots, but some is from stupidity.

It was the purity folks who railroaded Al Franken out of the Senate. There are many of us who are pissed off about it, and we are nor Russian bots, and we aren't stupid. The stupid ones were the ones who fell for Republican dirty tricks - again.

and are willing to allow repukes to win by primarying sitting Democrats (risks the seat) and/or withholding funds...then you are the purity crowd...just a different kind of purity...same result. I was not happy with the Franken thing as some know...but I would not help elect one Repuke because of it. I don't live in Gillibrand's state, but if I did, I would crawl across broken glass to vote for her. I live in Ohio should I withhold funds from Sherrod Brown because he called for Franken to resign? There is 60 to 100 million of Koch money coming against him. Honestly this entire post and many of the comments make me sick. The same folks saying all of this stuff will be the first to attack the DNC for not spending money in certain races...but you have to have money to spend...consider what 19 will look like if we don't win in 18. Think twice before going down this path...it won't end well.

but I would never risk Democratic seats to teach anyone a lesson....Jesus...playing into GOP hands. Same old same as in 16. You would think they would have realized how foolish it is to go for purity over winning. Do they want Trump and the GOP to have a free hand in setting policy and appointing judges?

"Look at me! LOOK AT MEEEEEEEEE!" Sometimes I think they're more to be pitied than censured, except for the danger they pose to the countr7y.

However I cannot and will not support the notion that punishment without investigation is an acceptable response to an accusation.

The "big picture" has been used before to justify actions which have led to lives being turned upside down and futures sacrificed. An innocent wrongly convicted used to be too many.

is an acceptable response to an accusation."

THANK YOU!!

not the presidential primary, but we need every damn Senator and Representative and then some more to stop Trump. Trump is the enemy...the others you refer to made a mistake.

We have to have a majority...it is not about individual states.

But he always said that we are entitled to our own opinions, though not our own facts.

My opinion is that what was done to him was despicable and amounts to complicity in a Republican scheme, not boding well for a stiff Democratic opposition in the 2018 session of Congress. That fact that Al Franken thought he found found himself in a situation where he thought resigning was the better part of valor does not change my opinion.

To each his own I guess.

It's not an obvious call all the time. This time, for me, principle wins.

As I said before, in the General, I'm in with our nominee, whoever that is. I'm angry, but not suicidal.

Like Cheryl Crow sang, "I got a feeling I'm not the only one."

Go right ahead!!!

I have voted in the past for candidates that I thought couldn't win the general election because I wanted to endorse what they were saying, which I guess counts as 'voting on principle.' But with the very foundation of our democracy, and perhaps the survival of our country and the world on the line, I will be voting for and supporting all Democrats who can take office and turn our country around.

I was responding to the statement in the OP that an entire class of Democratic office holders and candidates will "get zero from me" unless they win their primary.
The basic argument, which is relitigated with regularity here on DU, is whether to demand philosophical purity from our candidates or to sometimes support those who have the best chance of winning. That is the essence of the 'principle vs pragmatism' argument, and the current state of the country and the world leads me to look more fondly on pragmatism if the other possibility is a continuation of TrumpMcConnellRyanSessionsCruz etc etc etc

I'm going from what the OP said about their experience.

It still is annoying given what Repubs get away with - seemed a time we could have stood by our guy for once. But in the end, "NO REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS" where even the bluest dog could sit is my motto.

Or do you not remember what this place was like in 2016.

Hillary Clinton. You vote like this, expect the same outcome...and I think helping to elect Republicans which is what this does is not principled in the least. Tell the Dreamers about your principles...you can amuse them on the way to wherever they will be sent to most likely die.

His. Own.

before they played into Republican hands, and attacked Franken.

And let's not pretend some of them didn't do it because they thought they'd further their own ambitions.

Though, was it?

which is what some on this thread are advocating ...when they withhold money and primary sitting Democrats.

I have limited funds. I donate to those candidates that reflect my interests. My money must get earned by a candidate


Usurping a strong Democratic Senator for your own political gain is Machiavellian, and I won't pay you if you employ those tactics. I don't see how being Machiavellian is good for the party. It's that kind of political nonsense that has put us where we are. I am not rewarding bas behavior

Otherwise those you help elect will get to do exactly nothing. If you don't have a majority, you have no power. I was livid about Franken, but I am not into purity or perhaps revenge is a better term...I will vote for Democrats and send money to Democrats and work my ass of for a majority. No matter what our Dems did, they are all better than any repuke...I seriously thought some would have learned the lesson of 2016...so disappointing.

.

attaining a majority where such individuals can actually accomplish something worthwhile is sort of like sending thoughts and prayers...it makes you feel good but doesn't accomplish much in terms of policy. Without a substantial investment by the national Democratic Party, we would have had no chance of taking Session's seat in Alabama. The Democratic Party needs donations to make that happen in other states in 18. I have limited funds too due to unemployment earlier in the year, thus I will send most of the money I can afford to the national party in order to win a majority in congress and will give smaller donations and lots of time Sherrod Brown and Tim Ryan here in Ohio. Sen. Brown is a great Senator but can accomplish little without a majority...and he has 60 to 100 million in Koch money coming against him. Also we have to defend three times the number of Senate seats than the GOP does in 18...that takes money.

To defend matters not to Senator Gillibrand, so why should it matter to me?

I am a dog trainer and used to train with Roy McFall, a man who won the NFC multiple times. He used to say you can never expect the dog to be more precise than the trainer. Seems appropriate here....

candidates we trust. I will not support any Senator on the "Franken resign" list in the primaries. In the General, obviously, they will get my full support - that includes donations for senators outside my state.

I am still angry. Democrats should be forced to remember that due process is a democratic value. Period!

Have a nice day...and in the end it won't work. The GOP will not divide us despite their multiple attempts. So do your best or worst as the case may be...as for me, I will work to win elections.

I make a distinction between primaries and the general. Between two democrats, in a primary, I will support any challenger who goes against a Franken Resign Senator. Then, I clearly said, I would get behind any democrat in the general.

By the way, being rude doesn't make your argument stronger.

sitting Democrat and the party would be denied financial support is foolish and can only lead to losses in the general. What you suggest is divisive and will only help Republicans. I was totally pissed about the Franken thing...I would not vote for some in a presidential primary because of it...I would support others who did not participate perhaps. There is no Democratic incumbent president...thus there is no risk in using the Franken thing as a factor in my decision concerning whom to support in a presidential primary...Congress is different. We are in a battle for our very existence. The progressive movement is in serious jeopardy and so is our Republic, and nothing must stop us from taking back a majority in the Houses and hopefully the Senate.. nothing is more important than this effort. It is are only chance to stop Trump and the Republicans. I would vote for any Democrat in a general and so would you...but that might not be enough...without volunteers and money, we could lose seats;If we lose Senate seats that helps the GOP implement their murderous agenda; we could weaken Senatorial candidates in needless primaries making them more vulnerable to their Republican opponents or we could nominate candidates who can not win a general. We must shut down Trump and the Republicans. 18 give us our first opportunity. We cannot allow the politics of personal destruction to interfere with this important task. The circular firing squad needs to be disbanded immediately.

In a general, if our candidates are not receiving financial support(from individuals or even a Democratic party that has few resources due to the idea of punishing said party) and have to face a Republicans with deep pockets, we will lose seats. We saw this sort of thing in 16. I won't go down that road again; I hope you and most Democrats won't either...it is not worth it to destroy the future of our party and perhaps the future of our country for the what can only be described as "purity politics". And if Franken had not resigned than those purist who were offended by his actions would have been posting the similar complaints...time to let this go and prepare for battle against Republicans, not our own party or candidates, (and a primary is part of an election) in 18 and 20. One will never agree with any candidate or party completely, but some Democrats seem to think any mistake calls for an execution...and that sort of attitude will make us a permanent minority. Consider what that will mean in terms of policy and the human suffering that will ensue. The GOP doesn't have to destroy the progressive movement on their own as some who call themselves progressives and even Democrats seem willing to do it for them.

And I don't understand why this helps Republicans. If I were a Republican, I would be working like hell to unseat Orrin Hatch. In fact, many decent Republicans are. He is a sitting senator, but the body would be better off without him.

Primaries aren't supposed to be predetermined. That's what you are arguing for. You're asking democrats to pre-ordain the incumbent. How is that a moral ask of a democrat or anyone else?

It sounds like you are more deserving of that Senate seat than any of those Franken ousters. You care more about the future of the Democrats in the Senate than they did. If they had cared that we are in a battle for our very existence, they wouldn't have gone after Franken like they did.

Let's pave the way for Democrats who will act in the best interest of the party.

Not a farm guy..thinking heard twice a day..
I am from Wisconsin and I hope at some point u might reconsider.. .I also am having a hard time swallowing he treatment of franken. I did not like hrc but for the good of the country idid work for and support her. Envision same for Baldwin..
It's a long time before the election and the announced gop clowns are truly awful. Perhaps a better fund raiser will approach u later

Baldwin will probably call herself. I will be only too happy to put my grievance to her personally, and I will be only too happy to hear what she has to say.

Like I said elsewhere, once the primaries are done, I am all in for the Democratic nominees, including (whether I think they deserve it or not) those who urged Franken's resignation. However, I will sit out the primaries for those whose behavior in this instance was more of what I expected of our opposition.

destroy any that do things we don't like? That only helps repukes. I was not happy about Franken, but I want every damn Democratic incumbent to win re-election and we need to win several new seats in order to stop the heartless GOP bastards and the that f'ing monster Trump who has fascist tendencies and is a serious threat to our Republic.

Last edited Wed Dec 27, 2017, 07:28 PM - Edit history (1)

It wasn't-it was a reasoned response to what you perceived as bad behavior. That said there is a small faction on this site who insist, lacking the slightest shred of sworn testimony, that Senator Franken has somehow been convicted of an unnamed crime and therefore had to be disposed of. They are wrong and the actions of democrats in ousting him were deplorable. I will vote for them (holding my nose) but they get nothing from me either...

Good on you DFW!

and as many have said, may have decided that ahead of the calls from Dems for him to do so.

period

across the way you see a guy throwing a fit with the waitress, you overhear he is mad at the world for failing as an artist.

You then see the future for a moment, realize who that person is, do you then go over and complain to the waitress about how not hot your coffee was?

Or do you dedicate every waking moment of your life to preventing that man from gaining power, vowing to vote for ANYONE who opposes him, NO MATTER WHAT?

The response shouldn't be "I see he's horrible but let's fill out the approved paperwork and use the ultimate free speech zone of voting to maybe, just maybe, shut this guy down... if we overpower his supporters at the polls."

Before we go all Godwin here, it's important to remember that we are talking about a primary challenge from another Democrat for a House seat and whether or not the OP has to invest $500 of personal money to a politician without being declared a villain.

Congress could bring on horror not unlike what happened in Germany ...I don't think we can withstand two more years of Trump without some power...so primarying sitting Dems is stupid and not only will I not support them...I will never support them except by voting for them in a general and I doubt most will make it that far...if you do something like primarying a sitting Dem in this environment, you are poised to lose.

We live in a democracy. People get to run for public office. If this presents a problem for you, perhaps Democracies and Republics aren't your thing.

winning we won't live in a democracy for long. You can be allowed to do something but the question is ...is it wise...does it help our situation...so although we have the right to run in a primary during a time when we own nothing in government...one has to wonder is this where our limited resources need to go...I say no...and any who do this will be dead to me. I will vote as straight D ticket in the general...but Move On gets no money from me as they financed a primary challenger against Tim Ryan...which risks the seat in Ohio. Any candidate they support against Ryan gets no support from me in this primary or any other in the future. I always vote for the Dem in the general...but what they did seriously risks the seat...dumb move.

Nader supporters...complete waste.