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kennetha

(3,666 posts)
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:53 AM Dec 2017

Time for a New American Republic

How many people are really aware of the following fact about the US Constitution.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress."

The striking fact here is that the state legislatures are free under the constitution to choose electors IN WHATEVER MANNER THEY DEEM BEST. There is no necessity of even holding a plebiscite for the selection of electors. Moreover, the people at large -- in their 14th amendment created role as Citizens of the US -- are given absolutely no direct role in electing a president. True, as matter of custom, the states have now -- as of the 1870's -- all decided to hold actual plebiscites for the selection of electors. They have thereby endowed the people of the several states, in their role as citizens of the SEVERAL STATES, but not in their roles as citizens of the NATION, with some power to choose those who choose the president. But there is nothing in the constitution of the United States to stop any state from taking that wholly contingent grant of power away from its citizens. The Constitution does not even recognize a federal right to vote in elections for the Presidency that attaches to the citizens of the US, qua citizens of the US.

This is truly an absurd system! It's time is long past.

It was designed, as were so many things in the constitution, to protect the slave holding South which, though populous, allowed few to vote from the free North, in which many many more people enjoyed suffrage. Direct election of the president by the people considered as a corporate body would thus have been a danger to slavery. And well, the South would have none of that.

Bottom line. The electoral college is nothing but the legacy of our disgraceful slave-holding past.

In the name of democracy, it deserves to be completely abolish. The people are surely as competent to elect their president directly as they are to elect any other elected officer of the government at any level -- ALL of whom are now directly elected.

Only the tyranny of the rural minority-- which is endowed with extraordinarily outsized political power by this absurd, anti-democratic, anachronistic relic of a discredited past -- keeps it in place.

Perhaps it is time for the majority to refuse to yield to the tyranny of the rural minority.

Americans are taught that America is the world’s oldest democracy. But it is seldom emphasized how shallow our commitment to true democracy really is. It was not until 1964 that the Supreme Court insisted on the principle of one person one vote in the proportioning of state legislative districts. It was not until 1914 that Senators were required to stand for popular election. To this day we are subject to the discredited anachronism of the electoral college. And even such elections as we do hold cannot truly be called free, open and fair -what with the absurdity of their being held on Tuesdays, with voter ID laws designed to restrict access, with the difficulty of even registering to vote in so many states. And I haven’t even mentioned our utterly sorry history in this regard, including poll taxes, literacy test, and the whole lot. This is no way to run a democracy, nor even a semi-democratic republic!

Time for a New American Republic. The Old Republic is already dead!

22 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Time for a New American Republic (Original Post) kennetha Dec 2017 OP
Good arguments here. triron Dec 2017 #1
What do you propose to do to change things? brooklynite Dec 2017 #2
refusal to cooperate with the current political order. Determined resistance kennetha Dec 2017 #3
Catch phrases solve nothing brooklynite Dec 2017 #4
where were you during the civil rights movement or the anti-war protests? kennetha Dec 2017 #5
In Elementary school... brooklynite Dec 2017 #14
a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. kennetha Dec 2017 #15
I'd be delighted to have a more representative voting system... brooklynite Dec 2017 #19
There is a very large problem here jmowreader Dec 2017 #6
Hillary won 3 million more votes than Trump, but Trump is president. Sophia4 Dec 2017 #7
I know all of those things jmowreader Dec 2017 #9
Representation Nasruddin Dec 2017 #11
I'm the last person who would cause any trouble about it other than to write about Sophia4 Dec 2017 #17
You're partly right Nasruddin Dec 2017 #10
What is scary is that Republicans are closer to having the numbers to call a Pepsidog Dec 2017 #12
What makes you think kennetha Dec 2017 #16
Hard numbers and hard reality jmowreader Dec 2017 #20
there are not 38 theocracy hungry states in the US kennetha Dec 2017 #22
That doesn't address how you convince small states to support a Constitutional amendment onenote Dec 2017 #21
There is a way to circumvent the Electoral College Martin Eden Dec 2017 #13
Im going to become an e-citizen of Estonia Gabi Hayes Dec 2017 #8
NCR much? 0rganism Dec 2017 #18

brooklynite

(94,657 posts)
2. What do you propose to do to change things?
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:20 AM
Dec 2017

You're making a abstract comment; the reality is that the system we have is 1) based on the deal made to knit the country together 225 years ago and 2) held in place by the limits that exist in amending the Constitution. How are you going to convince the small states to give give up their over-sized roll in Presidential selection through the Electoral College?

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
3. refusal to cooperate with the current political order. Determined resistance
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:22 AM
Dec 2017

make the country unworkable unless and until a new republic is founded.

we are a revolutionary people, borne of struggle and resistance.

time for a new struggle and new resistance.

Our forebears fought a war to escape a monarchy, a civil war to bring down slavery, engaged in non-violent resistance to combat Jim Crow and to end the insanity that was Vietnam.

brooklynite

(94,657 posts)
4. Catch phrases solve nothing
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:28 AM
Dec 2017

"Make the country unworkable"..."time for a new struggle'"

What EXACTLY are you calling on people to do?

brooklynite

(94,657 posts)
14. In Elementary school...
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 12:00 PM
Dec 2017

That said, neither movement got started by venting on an anonymous blog. They were expressions of common concern; I would hazard a guess that Federal voting rights aren't on the minds of more than a handful of people today.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
15. a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:08 PM
Dec 2017

one has to be the change that one seeks. One begins with consciousness raising. Yours could use a little, I think.

brooklynite

(94,657 posts)
19. I'd be delighted to have a more representative voting system...
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 03:28 PM
Dec 2017

...but as someone who deals with reality, I have a good sense of what issues can be addressed today in our current political environment. Since you're the person who seems to believe a spark needs to be lit, I'll leave it to you to get things started.

jmowreader

(50,561 posts)
6. There is a very large problem here
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 03:20 AM
Dec 2017

The way the Constitution is set up, if a Constitutional convention is held then each state will receive an equal number of votes. Please find a map of Trump's electoral victory and ask yourself, if that group gets together and reshapes the Republic, what is it going to look like?

Well, I'll tell you what it will look like.

No abortion.
No women's rights.
No gay rights.
No minority rights.
English Only.
No birth control.
No government-funded health care.
No public assistance.
Mandatory membership in an approved religion.
Deportation or worse for Muslims and members of any Eastern religion.
Full citizenship only for married Christians.

The Republic we have is not perfect, but it's far better than the theocracy we'll be facing if Trump's supporters get the chance to remake the government in their image.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
7. Hillary won 3 million more votes than Trump, but Trump is president.
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 03:32 AM
Dec 2017

That's a serious problem.

California has 12% approximately of the population of the US but only 2 senators meaning our representation, California's representation in the electoral college does not begin to represent us fairly.

This is a very serious matter.

The compromise that led to the electoral college in the writing of the Constitution was perhaps appropriate at that time (although it was intended to protect slave states which makes it pretty abominable from the get-go), but it is no longer tenable.

If we get another Trump who is elected by only a minority of voters, the problem will become even more evident to those of us who live in California.

We love our country, but does our country love those of us who live and vote in California?

Seems to me the rest of the country needs to ask itself how important California is to the Union. Because if we aren't important enough to have the right to have our votes really count in presidential elections, then maybe we aren't wanted in the Union. Are we wanted or not? Would the rest of America prefer a country without us?

If we are wanted in the US, then why shouldn't we be given an equal vote and voice in electing the president?

jmowreader

(50,561 posts)
9. I know all of those things
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 04:06 AM
Dec 2017

I also know all those three-vote and four-vote states that keep sticking us with Republican presidents are NOT going to give up that power.

Nasruddin

(754 posts)
11. Representation
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 04:42 AM
Dec 2017

It's interesting to look at a table of population to representation. Here's one I found:
https://www.thegreenpapers.com/Census10/FedRep.phtml?sort=Hous#table
I don't know how accurate the data is, but I give them the benefit of the doubt.

It looks like in general smaller, less urban states have significantly poorer
ratios of population to representative ... but not absolutely. It's probably a dependency
of district lines for house seats having to be drawn inside a state boundary, because
of constitutional rules. There's really no reason to do that any more (but it's the
law.) Drawing districts across state lines to balance the population better would probably put more
Republicans in the House - the extra districts would have to come from somewhere, and
would draw off a few Democratic state districts.

 

Sophia4

(3,515 posts)
17. I'm the last person who would cause any trouble about it other than to write about
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:16 PM
Dec 2017

it on line.

But I know human nature and more than average about history, and this is going to cause problems in our country at some point in the future.

Nasruddin

(754 posts)
10. You're partly right
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 04:18 AM
Dec 2017

But there's more to it than that. I don't believe there are any ground rules
in the constitution (Art. 5) for the convention. It's not clear that congress or the supreme
court would have any jurisdiction over it. It really could be a wild ole party.

On the other hand, it would be an incredible opportunity. The constitution
we have is pretty flawed, in so many ways.

Because there are no ground rules or controls I don't think a convention
can be set up in a way that would give it the authority it would need to
have its proposed changes ratified. It would never get to the starting line.

Pepsidog

(6,254 posts)
12. What is scary is that Republicans are closer to having the numbers to call a
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:20 AM
Dec 2017

Constitutional convention than Dems. Republicans hold a much greater majority of State governments. Need 2/3 of States to call a Constitutional Convention. Look at map and it’s scary red.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
16. What makes you think
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 01:10 PM
Dec 2017

That Trump's supporters will be able to force a constitution down the throats of the rest of the people? That we would just sit there and let that happen as if we have no options except to be ruled by the Trumpistas?
That would be the end of the Union.

jmowreader

(50,561 posts)
20. Hard numbers and hard reality
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 03:44 PM
Dec 2017

A Constitutional Convention can be called by a vote of two-thirds of the states. We have 50 states, so that's 34 states.

Once this Convention is held, any amendment can be placed in the Constitution by a vote of three-quarters of the states, or 38 of them.

The rest of this comes from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_state_legislatures
As of right now, there are 32 state legislatures that are in Republican control.

In 2018, the following legislatures could fall into purely Republican hands: Alaska, Colorado, Maine, Oregon, Virginia and Washington.

Kennetha, if that happens they could very well turn this country into a theocracy by Easter Sunday.

kennetha

(3,666 posts)
22. there are not 38 theocracy hungry states in the US
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 10:17 PM
Dec 2017

Of course a constitutional convention would be raucous and chaotic.

Forming a new nation is always that way. But the large states would have extraordinary leverage in such a convention, not the poor, rural, hardly populated states. Because it would now be the poor rural states that were desperate for union. The large prosperous costal states can easily walk away. Nebraska cannot.

onenote

(42,724 posts)
21. That doesn't address how you convince small states to support a Constitutional amendment
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 04:12 PM
Dec 2017

that would be against their narrow interests.

Martin Eden

(12,873 posts)
13. There is a way to circumvent the Electoral College
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 11:56 AM
Dec 2017

Each state can amend their own constitution to award all their EC votes to the winner of the popular vote -- contingent on states comprising an EC majority having adopted the same amendment.

This would require far fewer states than necessary to pass an amendment to the US Constitution.

 

Gabi Hayes

(28,795 posts)
8. Im going to become an e-citizen of Estonia
Sun Dec 31, 2017, 03:38 AM
Dec 2017

Might move there, if they take geezers

They’re trying to get prospective mommies to make more babies, but the e-citizen applications far outstrip the birth rates

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