General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsJust for the record: Franken's seat is one that did NOT need to be defended as it is now
Thank you very much to all who helped make this seat more competitive.
Scoff at Bachman if you wish. Yes, she's fucking nuts. BUT, she CAN win. Not sure if it is likely, but it is absolutely possible.
Edit to add "did" to the thread title
stonecutter357
(12,697 posts)lunamagica
(9,967 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 3, 2018, 05:55 PM - Edit history (1)
But thanks to those that went after Sen Franken's to resign, Minnesota is in play now. One more block on the path towards '18. An obstacle created which was not needed.
The repugs must be laughing at how easy it was. Truly, a gift on a silver pratter
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And two of Hannity's friends, who can you believe?
Why don't you support women?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)They obviously lied to get...something, as no Good Sexual Harassment Victim ever fears retribution against them.
It does however, beg the question... Why don't you support women?
(six of one half a dozen of the other... and each filled with the same merit-less petulance as the other)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I support Democratic women. GOP women (and men) can carry their own water
rainin
(3,011 posts)I have been wishing for someone to say it so succinctly. You WIN!!
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)An investigation would have been most notable nationally for salacious claims that only built further doubt about him and our party.
The only benefit is that it would have demonstrated to some who can't see it now that Franken's resignation was necessary for the sake of not just our party but our nation.
Bottom line, 8 accusers was probably about 5 too many. Franken knew it. He himself asked for an investigation at 1 and stated he would resign as the numbers grew.
lunamagica
(9,967 posts)accused to resign is the right course to take? I can't even...
Remember that Tweeden (sp) didn't even want to testify. Who knows what would have happened once she was under oath
I'm sorry, but I can't get behind hit jobs...or haven't you noticed the accusations have suddenly stopped?
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,841 posts)Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Gidney N Cloyd
(19,841 posts)...was Tweeden saying 'shes not calling for Frankens resignation, unless other women come forward.' (https://www.avclub.com/al-franken-apologizes-calls-for-ethics-investigation-o-1820514851)
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)coming forward to accuse him didn't affect his decision, that's okay. Only how we vote next November really matters.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,841 posts)Ghost Owl
(59 posts)one would probably ask the many military folks who were around Franken and Tweeden the entire time they were at the base (civilians are never left alone on a military base) what they observed during the rehearsal kiss.
They would probably ask Tweeden why she embellished certain facts (she has, this has already been proven), and if she embellishes the same facts under oath, she'd be guilty of perjury.
They would probably try to find who the USO photographers were in Tweeden and Kemplin's cases, and ask them what they saw.
They might call Stone to be under oath, ask him why he knew about Tweeden's story before it broke, and watch him flail around a bit.
They might try to find out the names of the two anonymous Air America guests, and see if they/their boss was ever at Air America (it doesn't appear the media blogs did this; if they did there's no mention of it in their articles).
They would probably want to see the supposed Facebook post of Menz that the general public has never seen, but we should believe totally exists.
They might, if they suspect anyone was paid off, request bank records.
And some people, when under oath, actually DO tell the truth, out of fear that they might be caught lying and face charges.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)These women would have to be handled with extreme respect, no insinuations. And nailing one with an email or some such, would be blown up by enemies as a victim-shaming insinuation against all the others.
It might also help to remember the noise on DU alone when the first allegation came out against Franken. Some here were so immediately outraged on behalf of Tweeden that they wanted to hang him up by his you-know-what right then and there. And those are supposed Democrats.
The allegation is the crime. All who watched Hillary should know that.
Ghost Owl
(59 posts)You can question a victim/accuser without shaming them. WaPo did it with the Moore victims. You just got to not be an asshole about it.
Shaming is "You were a playboy model, aren't you asking for men to ogle you?" or "Is a pat on the ass really that bad?" or "Why were you alone with him?" or "Why didn't you speak out sooner?". Questioning is "Ms. Tweeden, you said that you avoided Franken for years afterwards, but ran into him accidentally at some function and refused to talk to him. Yet in 2009, you went to a dinner in his honor, and were photographed laughing and chatting with him. Can you explain the disparity between your statement and the evidence at hand?" or "Ms. Tweeden, have you ever had contact with Roger Stone?"
Dems can't make all their decisions based on "How will the Republicans spin this to hurt us" because the Republicans will spin ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING to hurt the Dems. Dems got to stop worrying about that, and start worrying about how to make a better argument, how to expose their spin.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)It'll be an eye-opener. CNN or MSNBC, makes no difference. See for yourself just how ultimately poisonously self-serving their interpretation of almost anything they cover is.
The biggest, most consistent media bias is in favor of sensationalizing. They thrive on it and don't just stir up dissension and controversy but routinely create them in pursuit of ratings.
leftstreet
(36,109 posts)cwydro
(51,308 posts)Kimchijeon
(1,606 posts)Big fat stinky "kudos"💩 to those responsible. What a swell gift, waaay to go ya morons.
Dopers_Greed
(2,640 posts)I think it's going to be an uphill battle for her. IRRC, she was incredibly unpopular as a Rep, and decided to not seek re-election because she was likely to lose.
If Dems run a strong campaign and show up to vote, she's toast.
Make no mistake, though: I'm still pissed about them throwing Franken under the bus.
luvtheGWN
(1,336 posts)IIRC, her district is basically a suburb of St. Paul (called Sweetwater or something similar) and it's known to be very rightwing evangelical. If this is correct, it certainly doesn't represent the rest of Minnesota, so it's doubtful she has even a snowball's chance in hell (actually, given the ultra-frigid temps we northern types are experiencing, that might not be the best expression to use.....)
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)It is a heavily gerrymandered district and does not include St. Paul or any other town in Ramsey county. Where she is from is Stillwater which is now in the 4th district that does include St. Paul.
That said, many other districts in MN outside of the Twin Cities swing red. The 6th is always going to go repub, because it's heavily gerrymandered as I mentioned above.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Democrat Patty Wetterling almost beat her in one election. Then there was Tinklinburg and Jim Graves. Now its Tom Emmer (R) whose newly passed bill just endangered the BWCA giving mining rights to a Chilean Mining company. A smart candidate would focus on this, its pretty unpopular, everyone loves the Boundary Waters Canoe Area.
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)I was so glad he lost the governor's race. I read about that bill about the BWCA. It is a freaking nightmare.
I'm in CD 5 (Ellison).
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Theres one Democrat running against him, has only 40 followers on Twitter. Its like everyone assumes its a safe seat.
theaocp
(4,241 posts)I hope the purists are happy.
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)She's never run Statewide; her only "success" outside her safe district was winning a Straw poll in Iowa.
Texin
(2,596 posts)She's going to have all those Russian bots and the money bags of loot from the likes of the Koch brothers and the Mercers paving the way. Fuck Kirsten Gillebrand and the rest of the quislings who moved in lock step with her. I swear to god the Democrats are their own circular firing squad. They could fuck up a wet dream.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)dsc
(52,162 posts)Trump's victory and for that matter Jones' shows us that. Is she likely to win? That is a different question.
wellst0nev0ter
(7,509 posts)The whites, especially the older ones, predictably get more reactionary against change. And Hillary won Minnesota by just 1.5 percentage points.
Neema
(1,151 posts)of Republican dirty tricks, religious fundamentalist nut jobs, Democrats and Independents who love to shoot themselves in the foot at every turn, people who feel like their vote and voice didnt matter after Franken got railroaded out of the Senate...all reasons why a Bachmann win is possible.
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)(fun fact: Minnesota uses paper ballots).
Neema
(1,151 posts)Is that your argument? Yeah, because one time I forgot to lock my front door and I wasn't robbed so now I leave it unlocked all the time.
Also, according to this article, Minnesota has (or at least had as of 2015) electronic voting machines:
https://www.twincities.com/2015/12/13/minnesota-secretary-of-state-wants-to-replace-aging-voting-machines-3/
brooklynite
(94,598 posts)Paper ballots are voted, scanned, and retained for recounts.
And I reject the notion of hacked voting machines because the only allegations come from bloggers; no candidate, political professional or Party leader ever claims that to be be a problem.
Neema
(1,151 posts)Lots of folks thought Trump could never win. And look how well that worked out.
elmac
(4,642 posts)well, history has shown that there are a lot of really, really, really stupid people voting, so yes, even putrid Bachman has a chance.
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)Great fight he put up.
"Not sure if it is likely, but it is absolutely possible."
Any way to hedge a bit more?
SansACause
(520 posts)He wasn't given that. He was forced to resign.
mythology
(9,527 posts)And at worst is a serial groper. The refusal to put the blame on Franken for this mess is silly. The reports were vetted by media. Do you doubt Matt Lauer was guilty? Do you doubt Roy Moore or Donald Trump are guilty? Kevin Spacey or any others?
LakeArenal
(28,820 posts)Lots of of us silly DUers dont like that much.
SansACause
(520 posts)Then why not let the ethics investigation go forward? He was forced to resign without being given a chance of clearing his name.
Ghost Owl
(59 posts)so we have no idea what process the four different media outlets that broke six of the accusations (HuffPo, CNN, Jezebel, Politico) used. And two were never vetted at all (Tweeden and Dupuy). I don't know what the vetting standards are at HuffPo and Jezebel, but I don't think we should be thwarting democracy based on them, kicking out duly-elected officials on the basis of accusations on blogs. At the very least, the Senate should have independently corroborated the stories themselves before making a decision.
When WaPo broke the Moore story, they explained in detail their vetting process (even did an AMA on reddit, which was quite informative), which took weeks and involved a lot of people. WaPo has a whole research department devoted to vetting/corroboration/background research. It was one of the reasons they were able to catch the Project Veritas plant (imagine if they didn't have the money and resources to do that, the damage that plant could have done). Their process involved talking to the accusers and their corroborating witnesses multiple times, to make sure their stories stayed consistent. They looked into their backgrounds and history, made sure the papertrail matched their stories as best it could. They looked into if any of these women might have reason to lie. They had 30 witnesses to corroborate 4 accusers. WaPo mentioned how lucky they are to have a research department, because many media outlets don't have the resources or money (or inclination) to properly vet stories anymore.
We got NONE of this background information explaining how they vetted from any of the Franken stories. There were some corroborating witnesses who said the victim told them about it, and one screencap of a Facebook post made a few weeks earlier in one of the anonymous HuffPo stories (we never saw Menz's facebook post, so I can't even say it exists or not). And while I don't discount that, it's also not the avalanche of carefully investigated information from the Moore story. There was often very little time for the reporters to actually vet the stories (Menz, for example, CNN only had a couple days at most to vet her claim). There were big avenues of corroboration that it does not appear anyone did. Nobody ever even asked who the photographer was in Tweeden's case, or Kemplin's (I would imagine the USO photographer would be able to say if they saw Franken grabbed her breast for the five-ten seconds she says he did; ten seconds is a lot longer than people think it is). Or the "It's my right as an entertainer" story from Politico, they never say if they checked with Air America's records, to see if the Congressman she worked for was ever on, never checked to see if she went with him (I also imagine that a Congressman's expense report is public information, so they could have checked theirs to see if they ever traveled there). There would be ways of doing that that would not reveal the accusers identity.
The Moore accusations, the Weinstein accusations, they all got like a five-star vetting treatment. Franken's? Like two-star. Two-and-half at most. Which, hey, is better than no stars, but you can't really compare Motel 6 with the Waldorf-Astoria.
And with Moore, and Spacey, and Trump, and Lauer, and Weinstein, there have been rumors going around for YEARS about all of them, whispered stories of harassment and grabby behavior. And when those stories broke, countless people who worked with them were like "Yeah, he totally does that". That does not exist with Franken, there's no foundation of rumor or off-the-record stories, the people who worked with him could not believe it. [Which doesn't mean Franken is innocent, of course, but it DOES factor into why people have doubts about Franken, why trying to compare him to how people reacted to confirmation that some Legendary Dirtbags were indeed dirtbags doesn't really work.]
ollie10
(2,091 posts)Comparing Franken to Spacey, Moore, Trump, Lauer, et al.....ugh.
No comparison at all.
peggysue2
(10,832 posts)I wouldn't recommend laughing at a Bachmann bid or feeling complacent about the seat. The very fact that the Trumpster was installed in the WH should make us all prepare to fight even the opposition's biggest nutcases.
This seat did not need to be put in play nor did Dems need to lose a vital voice. But what's done is done.
Btw, someone in the forum mentioned this several days ago: did you notice how those accusations fell silent after Franken's resignation was confirmed?
Strange that, eh?
We were so-o-o taken for a ride by the frigging right. Not to mention stirring the pot ourselves.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)It's possible I'll pee decaffeinated strawberry soda tomorrow morning, but I'd expect anyone to call that claim half-witted and idiotic if I offer no objective evidence.
I'm quite certain however, that your strawberry pee is both in fact and intact.
Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)Donald
Trump
LexVegas
(6,067 posts)Stinky The Clown
(67,808 posts)Sen. Walter Sobchak
(8,692 posts)The Republican money that is going to pour in Minnesota this fall is going to be unprecedented.
I have a hard time seeing anyone other than Tim Pawlenty winning the Republican primary for the special election.
Eliot Rosewater
(31,112 posts)him faster or more veraciously than I did. (Actually I am sure there were, but you know, sounds good this way)
You can search my posts, you will see what I mean, and yet, I am going to now defer to Al himself. Al knows what is at stake and if the decision is final on his leaving, and I keep hoping it isnt, then we must support whoever runs and we should (do what you want, but maybe take some advice here) stop talking about it because the ONLY good that does is piss people off who we need to vote for democrats.
Hekate
(90,714 posts)onenote
(42,714 posts)or could have defeated Franken in 2020.
But the likelihood of her winning a statewide race is pretty miniscule in a state that went for Hillary over Trump, a state that while purplish in terms of the state legislature, but bluish in that statewide offices (2 US Senators, Governor/Lt. Gov, Atty General) are all held by Democrats and a majority of the US House seats are held by Democrats (and Democrat candidates for House in 2016 collectively got 100,000 more votes than repub candidates in Minnesota).
Moreover, as shown in Virginia, having a nut job repub candidate is a good thing in purplish states -- even if she doesn't win the nomination, she pushes her primary opponent to the right, which can come back to bite him or her in the ass during the general election.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)Without Franken, we would not have Sessions recusal. But by all means, the sanctity of Lindsay Menz fat ass will prevail. Good grief we have lost our minds.
Proud Liberal Dem
(24,414 posts)but we don't even know, at this point, if she's going to be the nominee. And she hasn't committed to running.....yet. Hope we have to face her but if faced with a more *credible* Republican opponent like Pawlenty, we could face an uphill battle. I'm just glad that Franken's replacement is committed to running instead of being a placeholder.