wasn't stuck in another's mouth?

An investigation would have been most notable nationally for salacious claims that only built further doubt about him and our party. Remember doubt that destroyed Hillary's winning campaign from constant repetition of scurrilous lies? She was so good, but evil lies won. Franken and his colleagues know.

The only benefit to carrying out an investigation MIGHT be that it would have demonstrated to some who can't see it now that Franken's resignation was necessary for the sake of not just our party but our nation. But others would have refused to see.

Bottom line, 8 accusers was probably about 5 too many. Franken knew it. He himself asked for an investigation at 1 and stated he would resign as the numbers grew.

In the case of Teeden, a person claimed he had been with Franken the entire time and that the back stage stuff she claimed had happened, didn't happen. Was this person for real? An ethics investigation would have shown us. Franken out right denied the charge he had kissed or harassed the congressional aide at Air America. Radio studios are fairly crowded places, Franken had a co host, there are producers, sound people, etc. An investigation could have showed us what they saw or didn't see. If the anonymous accusers refused to testify at the hearing, then those should be dismissed.

newscast would have started with the various salacious allegations of tongues, butt-grabbing and so on, the picture of Franken's hands hoving over breasts, PLUS clips of new testimony from the 8 alleged victims, or would it have grown to 10, or 12 to drag it out?

As for an investigation, all questions into the women's own histories to suggest their characters were not credible would have been off the table, a dreadful mistake if made that would backfire ruinously. Republicans and sympathetic right wing and far left media would have cast Senate Democrats as "blaming the victims" for supposedly inviting attacks.

(This forum would have exploded with demands from anti-Democrat hostiles that senators resign for that reason, joined by some passionate ones who'd imagine they were fighting for women's rights.)

Note, though, that none of our senators were so stupid as to impune the integrity of any of the accusers. They knew.

Notably, the closest Franken himself came to suggesting anyone was lying was to specifically deny ever asking anyone, not that woman specifically, to meet him for sex in a toilet stall. He and the Republican plotters who set this up were all aware of this huge trap protecting his accusers, and he never obliged them by going anywhere near it.

And as more accusers came forward, an ethics investigation itself would have been a trap. They chose instead to deny the Republican plotters first several days of 24/7 coverage of investigation into Franken's tongue and then another 2 years of claiming the investigation itself "proved" the Democrats were just as bad as them.

Instead, although they managed to take out Senator Franken, we succeeded in drawing a line between our behavior and theirs. The best the disinformation forces on the right got out of it was helping along the dispiriting, weakening lies that it wasn't them but our own Democratic senators who did it. And, yes, they've been pushing that one big time.

need to be proven. He said, she said. She is a right-wing mouthpiece and friend of many other right-wing mouthpieces.

All of the accusations against Donald Trump are also he said she said. The same for the allegations against Matt Lauer, Kevin Spacey, Harvey Weinstein. The overwhelming majority of rape cases are he said she said because most rapes aren't physically violent (in the sense of beating the victim, obviously they are all violence against the victim). That's kind of the point. Sexual harassment is about power, which is largely an intangible thing.

Another poster here has said even if Franken admitted it, they would believe he was being blackmailed. What guy who has had so many accusations turned out to not be guilty?

Even if you want to dismiss Tweeden, you still have 7 other victims who were vetted by the media, several of whom told people about it at the time that you are also dismissing. There isn't a credible path where Franken didn't do this based on everything we know about these sort of things.

both you and Senate Democratic leadership seem to be willing to discard. And "vetted by the media?" It is to laugh.

Due Process in this context is irrelevant lacking a trial. Were he in fact denied due process, Franken would then file an appeal.

But it's a good sound-byte. And it allows us a self-righteous pretense. So yeah... using it is certainly a win/win if accuracy is unimportant.

And if we are smart we will let it go and move forward.

If....

Last edited Wed Jan 3, 2018, 02:13 AM - Edit history (1)

Why did Tweenden immediately say an investigation was not necessary?

If you look at the photo of him kissing her on the stage, he isn't even close to touching her mouth. She then claimed it was in the back alone, but they were not allowed to be alone. The people assigned to guard them, say nope, didn't happen.

So much for an investigation and due process.

putting forward more accusers. And who says only 8 accusers would be testifying before congress by the time it got started, or before it finally finished?

It would have become a salacious media circus where nothing was "proven" about where hands and tongues were or were not, only endless repetition of slimy charges.

Any attempt to accuse the women of having political agendas and not telling the truth would have been twisted into "blaming the victims" for their own abuse. Aside perhaps from referring to Tweeden's appearances on Hannity peripherally, in hopes that the media would show tapes of her there, off the table completely.

In the end, their victory in this is the resignation of a Democratic senator.

Our victory is that we succeeded in drawing a strong line between the Democratic congress's behavior on this subject and the Republicans'. A position we will be able to stand strongly on going forward.

the RW would make a circus, but if we can't stand up to their side shows, we are finished. We should have at least stood up for what is right instead of sliming away from due process, IMO.

You're in the middle of this and and have cast our Democratic Senators as unprincipled people, but we came out of those 3 weeks of national witch hunting having taken a famous stand against sexual harassment.

Of course our enemies saw the danger to them here and are pushing the idea that our politicians are too dirty to recognize a principle if they stumbled over it. You should not believe them.

If you insist on agreeing, though, at least understand that the hugely publicized events of December in both parties, part of a national frenzy of sexual predation exposures, were witnessed by 100 million women voters, the vast majority of whom care about the issue and only vaguely recognize Sen. Franken as an ex-comedian.

You know, Franken himself initially said he was embarrassed and ashamed of his actions. We know he was a fine senator for women and also that just maybe he contributed to what ended his career, but in the end he did what was right for them and our country. He helped draw a line, a little late and imperfect but definitive nevertheless.

Franken:

Facts and.law, many times, so, for now. I'm letting it go.

Too bad all of that high ground wasn't aimed at tossing or wounding the REAL Abuser-in-Chief. He would have gone after them though.

I'm anxious to defeat Republicans and, thus, start taking down the new plutocracy their 2016 aggregation of power created.

and it was mutual. However, this crew, I hate with a passion-- for the scumbags they are, for the destruction of our country and our moral fiber, for the destruction of our international reputation and on and on.

carry more weight with you than his denying it?

Notice that the number of anonymous accusers only grew until he resigned. Then they all stopped. Hmmmmmm.

How about if 9 people claimed that Gillibrand or Warren had groped them when they were 8 years old? No testimony. No identities. No oaths. No corroboration. By your reasoning, they would have to resign.

How much do you think it would cost to get 9 people to say a lie? After all, that would make 6 too many as far as you are concerned. Just wait until the next election. You would give a weapon to liars to eliminate any Democratic candidate. Your political evaluations are weak.

She has attacked our best Dems &flip flopped on issues. Wolf in Sheep's clothing.

She has helped the Repubs and devastated our party.

I think it was crass opportunism to get Franken
out of Gillibrand's way for a run for next prez.

She will NEVER be elected. I just hope Hillary and Bill put someone else in her position, just like they helped her, before she backstabbed them.

when the dems go after molester in chief, they can't come back with
"what about Franken, there is a photo"

They'll trot out the same lines as some here have been - Franken didn't defend himself, no smoke without fire, time to move on, blah blah blah. They may not even bother mentioning him at all, as they have transgressions by other Democrats to point to (or had you forgotten Trump's stunt with the Bill Clinton accusers at the debates?).

In what conceivable universe are any sexual allegations going to be instrumental in getting rid of Trump? Even if the "pee tape" or worse allegations were proven, he and his hangers-on would brazen it out, as they have been all along.

If and when Trump falls, it'll be much more to do with what Mueller uncovers than what Trump's done to women in the past.

a story to get his seat. You think the party of Trump will take the high road now??

His comedian actress accuser performing the skit, which had been performed for 3 years, did NOT want an investigation.

Dems are always bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.

We must have more insights into their playbook, their win-at-all-costs mentality.

Too many of us underestimate their greed and corruption.

We are Dems because we are generally pretty nice people and want the best for people. The rabid dog, ME FIRST, END JUSTIFIES MEANS, Repubs easily take advantage of our good nature.
Unfortunately, this is why they have all three branches now. We wouldn't let someone beat the shit out of our kids or a lynch mob grab them, and it is time to stand up for our good Dems.

Just for folks to realistically look at how crooked and how debased the GOP lawmakers are and plan accordingly.
Gillibrand did not do that.

Their reply will be "Of course Franken resigned. He was guilty. trump hasn't resigned because he is innocent."

Our senators gave the republicans that weapon.

Due process abandoned for a perceived political advantage.

While not fighting for his own integrity was dumb politics. That is the start and end.

in case they perceived that there was an issue. He was trying to show the integrity to be consistent with the position that women alleging harassment deserve to be heard. I agree that it was a loser of a political tactic.

It was a weird environment with the rapid fire outing of celebrity harassers and I don't think there was a clear playbook on how to handle it. Roger Stone is enough of an egomaniac attention whore that maybe he'll own up to it at some point.

After all he has thrown out a number of denials.

And yes, Franken denied. He just didn't call his accusers names.

He did not give that.

So you're asking if I believe tRump....do you believe the women accusing tRUMP?
Listen, I find myself questioning these Franken women too...and then I think if they were accusing someone I
didn't like would I believe them?

I also think even if he did touch a titty accidentally whatever here and there this punishment doesn't fit the crime.
But it's over now. After he said he would resign I HAVE LET THIS GO. I called him and emailed him NOT TO. But
he did so now we MUST move on to other things and above all we must STICK TOGETHER. We can fight and disagree but come down
to it WE MUST STICK TOGETHER at all costs! I am loyal to Dem's period...even when they make mistakes. Unless they are corrupt I will be loyal every time.

The way the Democrats handled this was very weak and Franken is deservedly valued. If Gillibrand were to get the Presidential nomination, everyone here would vote for her over Trump. But, it's not reasonable to expect that people wouldn't voice their frustration over this now and that it may deservedly damage her in the primaries if she runs.

If everyone just let this slide to tow the party line, they wouldn't have the passion that we need.

Call everyone liars and whores. They pretend they care about the women, but don't want anyone who will act with respect and dignity.

He had all of the women he had worked with at SNL and his Washington office put their names on letters protesting that Franken was always honorable and decent toward them. An investigation would have shown the accusers to have weird perceptions (like the lady that said he squeezed her side when she posed for a selfie with him and that she never even let her husband touch her side) or to be on the take from right wing. tweeden got a book deal and a possible job on air after her accusations. Guess who gave the deal and the job.

It makes us look weak, easily played and disloyal to one another. Franken was one of the few members of our party with a spine. It was just a sorry loss.

A few senators would have backed Gillebrand but Schumer would have had to have rounded up the majority. He was the decider.

He has gotten more push back than he expected and is unlikely to use the same tactic again.

To pretend otherwise is to pretend that Schumer is not in control of his caucus and that Gillebrand has a power she does not.

to his real self. He showed little leadership during the tax fight, too preoccupied with getting rid of a much better Senator than himself.

happened. When Reid said he was endorsing Schmer, I was surprised and disappointed. Harry had had a bad year, medically.

and prevented bad. I appreciate him more than ever now. Our Senate leadership has plundered in the last year plus. Two of the best gone. The two with the most spine, unfortunately. The two, with independent brains, who stopped to distinguish between RW BS and reality are missing now.

I agree with your post entirely.

Yet, for some reason, she is the only one who is getting consistently called out here.

Plus, she has betrayed the party before.

Franken
Hillary
Bill
Guns
Destruction of due process

That gives her first dibs at getting slammed.

If 30+ Senators had said that Franken should not resign then he probably would not have.

Not what happened.

Because the sheriff always goes after the leader of the lynch mob because you can't arrest the whole town and the leader is always a big mouth troublemaker the town would be better off without...

Unfortunately, he was to resign January 2nd.

Maybe, our great Dem leadership, particularly Guillibrand, can stand proudly when Bachman, or another RWNJ, wins his seat, Part 2 of the GOP coup of that seat (even the Senate Repubs were shocked that the Dems fell right in line).

and does damage to the entire country. There is a reason why political parties vet their own candidates. They don't don't want to be surprised by scandals and they really don't want to have to defend them while they are being investigated.

In an election year where there are already too many Dem seats up for reelection. No way this should have happened. We got played by Roger Stone, of all people. We definitely need new leadership.

are promising the bankroll.

There is a reason we have Citizens United...for them to buy elections, and cheat and lie to destroy our best.
How naive can the Dems be? Even the DNC joined in.

Time for new leadership that can't be blackmailed.

dump our best Democratic leader.

He admitted guilt and apologized, but he didn’t have to resign.

He apologized, but he said he remembered things differently from the way Leeann Tweeden (FOX News contributor) did.

Somebody accuses you of something you don't think you did, you just have to bow down and say yes, I abjectly apologize just because that's what somebody else THINKS you should do? No way.

He denied it all. He just didn’t want to be “that guy” who calls women liars or promotes the general culture. He was being intelligent and classy — probably not a good move for most Americans, especially not with our media.

“ Over the last few weeks, a number of women have come forward to talk about how they felt my actions had affected them. I was shocked. I was upset. But in responding to their claims, I also wanted to be respectful of that broader conversation, because all women deserve to be heard, and their experiences taken seriously.

I think that was the right thing to do. I also think it gave some people the false impression that I was admitting to doing things that, in fact, I haven’t done. Some of the allegations against me are simply not true. Others, I remember very differently.”

of it occurred. He was screwed...too much denial and your not listening to the women...no denial then you are guilty.

A perfect storm of circumstances.

Some of the Dems who got “caught up” turned out to be true scum buckets — like Kihuen, who I actually knew personally and liked more than Franken.

do not concur with the events themselves.

There was denial.

The bottom line is the situation is what it is and everybody needs to deal with it. I am also hopeful that we will be hearing a lot from Al in the near future.

that his own party disowned him? What program can he go on where his introduction and the preface to anything he has to say will not be "Al Franken who was forced to resign for sexual predation by his own party."?

Gillibrand and her followers took away a valuable voice for good. She screwed us and helped trump.

Are we blaming him now for leaving? Wow! He's not required to fight for us while his own party turns a firing squad on him. We've lost a great Senator.

I'm glad I don't know you in person, but the internet attracts all kinds, I guess. I suppose you will bring out the popcorn when/if someone like Bachman wins that seat.

but you could include this in the future

It's better than claiming it's sarcasm after the fact.

Tantrum to make world news does not mean he admitted guilt.

They all showed they aren't up to the task.

There are others around who don't hop on bandwagons.

Unless you want more Republicans. Then keep pushing that rock up that hill.

Because of bs accusations without due process.

I would guess there may be more to this that we weren't told.

Only thing that makes any sense, other than real bad stuff.

You win some, you lose some. And when you run you take risks.

I trust Al Franken. He made his choices. He is a brilliant man.

That NO more woman have come forward to accuse Franken of groping, kissing or whatever. Don’t worry folks if Franken had stayed Roger Stone would have found five or ten more.

Franken tried to kiss her by saying "it's my right as an entertainer".

Can't get anymore trumped up and unbelievable than those last two that sparked Gillibrand to lead the charge to force Franken out.

If I was a Dem contemplating running for the 2020 nomination I'd watch out for any speeding buses when around Gillibrand.

Dems: "Okay! Done! See how we objective and fair we are?"

Repubs:

==========

It's *possible* that there was a more extensive "back story" on Franken that he discussed privately with Schumer and others and they agreed that a long investigation, possibly including some GOP hacks, might just feed the GOP slime machine and make the situation even worse.

It seems to be working out for them.

There is no evidence of your supposition. No reporter has found extenuating accusations or back room deals, and they find out everything. Washington politics is a sieve.

There is no evidence that any of the accusations were accurate. tweeden specifically said she wanted to avoid an investigation. Most of the others are anonymous. Others are just silly ("He touched my side. I don't even let my husband touch me there" or "he hugged me too close when we took a selfie&quot

Then after the sponsor tweeden the rw machine begins filling the news with the "I suspect that" and "It's possible that" rumors about the great and wise senators know so much more than mortal people. So there "must" be more to the story.

Notice that the accusations stopped as soon as he announced resignation. Notice that every one of the women who worked with Al on SNL for those years wrote a letter that said they did not believe the accusations and that he has always treated them with respect and decency. And they put their names on the letter.

No. There is no "possible" back story. Only a right wing trolling operation.

Just what kind of a one sided dog & pony show would they do to a Dem? Certainly not a fair one. the truth & facts be damed!

I hope it bites Gillibrand in the butt, she doesn't have the judgement it takes to be a leader!

Nothing was accomplished by Franken’s defenestration except to show that the leadership of the Democratic Party is easily stampeded by whatever the current #meme is. This was a colossal blunder.

It will have consequences.

No we don't!

that put a safe Dem seat in play for absolutely no gain. They could've had an ethics investigation before ganging up and demanding he resign. If he got to 2020 and no substantial evidence were discovered he would get re-elected going away or even if they did find damaging evidence against him he could've resigned then and Democrats could've just ran for the open seat. Now they have to run for it in 2018 as well as 2020.

The whole NY,NJ crew Senators Corey Booker,Chuck Schumer and Kirsten Gillibrand deserve extra criticism because Bob Mendez a Senator from their own back yard was on under investigation charges for the longest and not one of them demanded he resign. They look like hypocrites.

This idea that getting rid of Franken makes it easier for us to attack Trump on sexual allegations claims is a fantasy. Trump will just make Al Franken his new Bernie Sanders. Will not matter what Franken says about it publicly Trump will stay on message and pretend Franken is his best friend. 'He will say look Franken was railroaded with sexual accusations and "I am being railroaded too."