But I look at it like this. If a woman is put off by me verbally checking in, then she's probably not a good fit with me. Saves us both time. But it also makes sure a woman isn't going to have to go to her friends and ask if I sexually assaulted her. The choice is easy.

"it reads more to me like a horrific date with 2 people with vastly different expectations on what was going to happen. And really, really shitty communication...not just speaking clearly what the person wanted or didn't want but also not listening. The woman wrote about her verbal cues being missed...well she was also ignoring a lot of verbal and non verbal cues being directed at her."

Great post.

(* or procreation as the desire and intent may lead to...or NOT lead to...)

That can cover an awfully wide chasm of eventualities and possibilities, but the only way sexual activity is healthy and consensual is when both parties (or all parties) are actively engaged, aware of the choices being made and of sound mind to give consent...and given full status as responsible for their own bodies.

That rules out drunken "hook ups" and especially the college tradition of taking someone back to their place after a night of heavy drinking or drugs or both.

That rules out all scenarios where one party has power or influence over the life of the other...

That absolutely rules out 90% or more of the sexual mores of society over the last 5,000 years...especially arranged marriage and burkas and honor killings and slut shaming and a host of other deplorable social norms...

That also 100% rules out any possible assumption of "she/he was asking for it" or "they said it was OK then stopped..."

It also SHOULD rule out romance as well. Sex does not equate to romance and romance does not equate to sex and as long as the dichotomy is falsely held in either the minds of some men or some women, the danger is false expectations and conflation of one with the other when the intent or expectation of all parties is not met.

Some men believe - quite fervently - that holding the door, helping a woman with her coat and seat, being congenial and providing a meal and some conversation at an exclusive or even semi-nice establishment is a payment on entitled rewards in sexual terms. Wining and dining and getting down to sex is too often a baseline assumption.

Now, should men (and/or women) expect that kind of behavior? Absolutely NOT! They should expect NOTHING and communicate clearly what is acceptable. Women frequently feel awkward about this conversation and men frequently feel imposed on if the topic is raised; but, as long as people interact in half truths and without expressing the limits of what each person feels is appropriate, expects, or sees as an eventual outcome; then misunderstanding and quite honestly diametrically opposed beliefs and expectations will persist.

Men should no more feel entitled to sex with a woman than the woman should feel entitled to candle light, string quartets or 5-star meals - in either case, these things can certainly be part of the interaction and relationship. but they can not replace clear communication and honesty. If one is given freely and enjoyed by both, then neither is a bad thing, or a good thing...just a thing mutually agreed to and upon; however, if one is given and the expectation is not understood or agreed upon, then conflict and bad outcomes become likely.

We are fighting thousands of years of cultural repression and norms here though...thank our Judeo-Christian ultra repressed brothers and sisters for that, as well as our Muslim friends to boot. As a human society, these kinds of uncomfortable discussions and realities (specifically women being seen as equals in all aspects to men - legally, socially, medically) are not held freely or openly enough without the school marms and religious nuts amongst us 'tsk-tsking' and slut shaming any woman bold enough to demand her respect in all arenas. That's if they are lucky enough to avoid the bruised egos and "honor" of male relatives in many places on Earth.

As society struggles to shrug off the shackles of past expectations and sexual politics, we should all agree that the first and most fundamental step that MUST occur is an open discussion on just why there is such a double standard in society for women and their treatment in social circles, in business situations, in sexual encounters and in medical decisions.

If we want to solve the dilemmas of what is and is not appropriate in sexual situations for all, then we first have to agree that fundamentally, women are STILL not given an equal starting point in the discussion at all. Until THAT rubicon is crossed, there will be no real progress.

I agree that sex and romance aren't the same thing, but I don't understand what you're getting at here.

It is obviously possible to have a romantic sexual relationship or a sexual romantic relationship. They aren't mutually exclusive.

I think the point I was trying for was the danger of non-explicit expectations on the part of only one end of a relationship. Conflating romance and sex as one in the same is dangerous in my mind...

Or maybe they should renegotiate and present new terms to be signed at periodic intervals throughout the date?

peer traditions, religious taboos, misinformation, ignorance, suspicion, and the crushing stigmas of age, appearance, gender and social standing. Its remarkable that anyone ever finds a loving relationship.

Kudos to you, and yours.

...and can say with certainty that any guy who asked a girl if he could kiss her first would be mocked. Not only that, but, unless the girl in question was from a very religious family with strict "courtship" rules (in which case, it would have happened well after they had spend many dates with a chaperone present) , she would probably be upset that he had asked, in that, if he really loved her, he would have been "carried away by feelings of love" as much as she was, and done so spontaneously.

Yes, we had a lot of different gender rituals in our days, that probably feel as alien to younger people now as their practices do to us old fogies. And it wasn't all out of '50s sitcoms -- by the time I got to college, the "sexual revolution" had triumphed, and couples having sex the first night were not at all uncommon. However, crucial differences between my class' college experience and today's "hookup culture" were that 1) we lived in a tightly-knit community (less than 400 students) where everybody got to know each other pretty well, so that, even if you paired up at a college party and went back to one of your rooms, you were not doing it as virtual strangers, and 2) it was pretty much assumed that, if you did spend that first night together, you were in a relationship from that point on. Experiences where that didn't happen -- where one of the two, having gotten their physical needs met, decided to drop their partner and move on -- were pretty rare and upsetting, and would generally result in word getting out around campus to "be warned" about that person.

I thought it was sweet, respectful and caring. I would never even think to mock them for asking. I responded by kissing them--each time!

I remember reading that Obama asked Michelle first if he could kiss her. I found it charming and romantic and I don't know of any female who feels differently.

was never mocked for it. Instead, I always got kissed for it. Either that or the other person grew impatient and kissed me first I was born in 1945, so I was a teenager before the sexual revolution and a young adult during it.

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Even in college. Once a coed sat on my bed when I was a freshman waiting for me to make a move, I did nothing, my dorm room mate laughed at me afterwards. I was square, butI got through school without incident.

Has been to never do anything but shake the hand of relatives, friends, people that I meet. I have been hugged by women, but I have always let them define what the hug was for. I never, never touch anyone on the lower waist, behind, pelvis region or thighs unless they ask me for help that require touching them in those locations.

I would not touch anyone's vagina when helping them, even if I had to help lift them.

BTW, if someone came to have me help remove keys from their vagina, I would wonder what the hell is wrong with the person before seeking appropriate medical help for them.

other than in intimate situations.

Some people can be clumsy or clueless or both. You would be surprised with some of the stuff I left shaking my head about. But helping out was a far better option than risking the person getting hurt because the restraint was not on right.

There is a woman that I used to work with that hugged everyone, all day. She was nice to hug, and I was attracted to her just a bit. But she would come up to me at my desk and hug me. I would pat her on the arm. I never one time initiated the hug. I would never address her as anything but her name. The one time I did initiate physical contact was to offer a high-five.
Everyone gets the same greeting from me. Men, women, children, everyone gets a tight smile, a nod, and a quick, "how's it goin'?" In the age where someone's actions can be misinterpreted and I could lose my job, I'd rather people just be able to say, "man.. Chris just isn't very sociable. is he?"

Rec

Sure, there were a few jerks who went too far, but by and large, most of the men I have been with have been very respectful when it came to boundaries and some have even been outright chivalrous. The decent ones have definitely outnumbered the bad ones by a large margin, but I am seeing that it is not the experience of most women and it makes me sad.

I found myself in when I was younger ... usually alcohol was involved and wow stunned at how some men acted around me. I am fortunate that the 2 long term relationships (first was my college bf of 2 yrs) were/are with men who are very respectful of women and respecting boundaries.

My experiences and abuse growing up made me a poster child for "victim of a lifetime of horrible relationships" yet somehow I managed to avoid that.

On our second date, I knew my husband was going to be the man I married...he was the first person (not just first man) I truly felt safe with. Didn't mean it would be easy or smooth sailing, but I'm glad I realized early on that he was a keeper.

I am glad you are still together!

There will be people one finds they have a better connection with and some they don't.

Just be honest about what you want or feel.

Good post

And also...

and most interactions in life, of any kind, tend to be of that kind.

I grew up in an extremely abusive home and was told repeatedly that I was mean, ugly, cruel, selfish, rude, unlovable etc etc. And I mean this was a daily barrage of comments told to me well into adulthood.

So I assume that everyone sees me that way - after all if my own mother felt that way (and she knew me best) clearly so would everyone else.

The problem is that normal for you is abnormal to me. When you see the world through my eyes, you become very defensive. And you believe that you deserve what ever horrible treatment is given to you.

What I meant with my comment is that most people out there are indeed trying not to step on boundaries or to offend. Most humans try to establish friendships and cordial relationships in the healthiest way possible, even if it does not always ends in a good note.

They met, texted a week or so, went on a date, he wanted to have sex and she said no, but would give him a bj instead. He sent her home in an uber. The next day she calls him up and said it wasn't consensual after she thought about it. He was shocked..
My opinion is regretting what you did on a date some time later doesn't make it non-consensual in the moment it happened. Buyer's regret isn't something people should have to fear for their freedom and reputation over imo. This wasn't a drunken encounter in the alley behind a club with 2 people that didn't know each other. This was a date with people that were willingly there at the time. People are going to have to start getting waivers signed before they do anything sexual and that will be a huge mood breaker.
I think this sort of thing takes away from those that are taken advantage of sexually by the Weinsteins of the world.

Regrets don't turn consent into non-consent. It does take away from real sexual harassment and assault. What Weinstein did...horrible. Ruined careers. And Matt Lauer...and it seems his co-workers & the company had known about him for some time. Cosby. All those instances are serious.

Sometimes we women are raised to be a little too passive, so that we don't speak up about what we want to do, and not do. And say something when something oppressive happens...like the Matt Lauer encounters. Hard to believe those women didn't even say anything to him. But I guess when your job is on the line....

I just think she had plenty of opportunity to keep her jeans on and leave. She allowed him to give her oral first and was hoping for a massage...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/babe.net/2018/01/13/aziz-ansari-28355/amp

Been there myself. Even though I was in some scary situations, and not a particularly assertive young woman (when I was young, obviously), I figured out how to stop advances. A time or two the guy almost didn't accept the clear no while pushing him away...I was concerned a couple of times. But ultimately, I was taken home without incident. I had made it clear with words and actions.

It wouldn't have occurred to me to claim assault or harassment or abuse, if I had consented, even if the guy had been pushy. When I was young, so many of the young men were pushy.

Seems like she sort of gave an indication she WOULD be interested, but just not at that moment, or something along those lines. Not a clear "no" and definitely no "take me home."

Maybe she was inexperienced, though. But even tho Ansari was pushy...too pushy...he can't be blamed for misreading her, seems to me.

I never thought I was assaulted in situations I willingly walked into.
I think this "coming out" of assault survivors is great, but sometimes people want to be part of the group a little too much and this girl claimed assault when it was really more like regret. Had he been more interested in pleasing her, she might have never thought about speaking out.
Nobody wants to feel like they are giving more than they get in this sort of thing.

Last edited Tue Jan 16, 2018, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)

Why, if you don't want to "have sex" with someone, would you would "offer to give them a bj", on a first date, no less?

First of all, that IS sex, just another type, secondly, I never thought of sex as a "favor" to be granted or "negotiated". For me, you either want to be intimate or you don't..."Accommodation" sex strikes me as demeaning and tacky as hell. ...Just my take.

She also magically got out of her jeans which she made a point of saying she had worn then she hopped on the counter for him to perform oral sex on her first. After she gave him his turn, she sat with him watching TV and hoping for a massage...turned into more oral for him instead of a massage for her.
She was pretty descriptive and included the text sent the next day.
I didn't feel a bit sorry for her. She knew where the door was and could have walked out at any time or never walked in imo.

and no, it certainly doesn't sound good.

I sometimes feel like, as a man, i am unable to say some of the things you just said without being told i'm "trying to excuse someone else's behavior." I happen to be very good at seeing both sides of a situation (helpful when you're a Union Steward), and have been castigated for standing up for awkward people who occasionally make awkward gestures or comments. I'll stop here as i could rant about this...

K&R

was like a flashback for me. It made me remember things I didn't want to remember.
She was trying to accommodate him and he pushed and pushed and pushed until she had to go to the bathroom and put herself back together.

I think my experiences was clouded with too much alcohol being poured down my throat.
I'm a lightweight but I didn't know that back then and sometimes ended up sick.
No one taught me anything either. I had to learn it the hard way and I'm 13 yrs older than you.
l didn't finish college until I was 45.

I don't miss those days at all.

#metoo

So, from an early age, I recognized the whole “romance” mythology first as false, then as idiotic, and eventually as harmful.

How silly is the notion that a woman’s sole contribution to a relationship is to be pretty? How unrealistic that the man has to be a perfect prince swooping in to save the day? How stupid that the woman has to be in distress?

Etc.

Personally, I find my partner’s lust and interest in me to be by far the sexiest thing ever. Sure, I enjoy my own pleasure, like any man, but real men lose their wood the instant their partner stops enjoying it.

I mean really, what’s the point of sex if your partner isn’t into it? Virtually all men know how to masturbate, and should be content to do so if they’re the only one interested.

Oh and that “blue balls” thing is horsesh*t. Real men can stop at any point.

if you masturbate? Or can't you tell your partner "I need to slow down a little". I've had a date just say outright "Whoa, I have a boner" and NOT expect me to do anything about it.

Just takes a little longer. It's unpleasant, but not life-threatening or organ-threatening. Anyone using it to pressure someone into sex is an asshole.

so well written and so true.

I truly pity the young people. Often they are conducting a single relationship online and in person. The online relationship can proceed at warp speed but the expectations come about in the "in person relationship." The story "Cat Person' in the New Yorker described something like that.

When I read her account

How she sounded just as upset about having to have white instead of red wine as what happened at the apartment.

It all sounded like she was writing a story before the date and already had made up her mind how she wanted it to end and when it didn't match her fantasy she stuck around trying to make it happen.

From the article in question:

“The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.”

Yeeeeah, don't do that...at least on a first date, Christ....

I don't understand why people are making this so complicated.

The first thing that happened was she took her jeans off and hopped on the counter for him to perform oral on her. I count that as worse to do on the first date.

I still think she could have kept her jeans on. She is not claiming he drugged her and said there was still wine in her glass and the bottle so I don't get the idea she was drunk.
I'm a woman and I've been there. I would not have felt like I had to do anything with the guy from what I've read. Maybe she was star struck, but since I don't like the guy in any way I just can't see it.

In no universe that I know of would that be ok.

I haven't dated for years(I was widowed a long while back), and now I'm kind of scared to start because I'm wondering if any spontaneity, if any wrong guess in the silence of the moment, will be interpreted as sexual harassment or something worse.

I was never a naturally "grabby" guy or anything, but it sounds nerve-wracking as hell to have to stop and ask for consent at every single step of a sexual encounter-that there would, seemingly, never be a moment where you could just assume that you were both "all-in" on whatever was going to happen.

I was married to someone who'd been repeated sexually assaulted before we were together, so that taught me to be more aware of things. But I don't know how much has changed.

At this stage I'm convinced that I'd get it wrong with someone if I even tried.

The result is, I'm staying away from any possible dating situations and it's lonely at times.

(on edit) that said, I wouldn't ever push things the way Aziz is accused of doing. Seemed important ot clarify that.

The other stuff will work itself out. That's really how it has always been. Don't be scared. Just be friendly and nice.

As a 60 year old single, never married woman who has been dating for over 40 years, here are my thoughts.

I think most women wouldn't be offended if you asked for a kiss at the end of an enjoyable date.

I don't think a major make out session (without progressing to sex) is a problem on a 2nd or 3rd date.

After that, LET HER TAKE THE LEAD. If she doesn't take your hand and lead her to the bedroom, WHEN YOU'RE READY tell her "I like you so much and I really want to make love to you." or something like that.

And don't forget to carry condoms.

Personally I think this would work at any age. Rushing into sex increases the likelihood that it won't be great and there won't be a second chance. Who wants that?

n/t.

I also dug up an ex-GF for a recurrent training discussion on proper decorum if by some miracle I actually find myself on a date with a real woman...

Deep into the clueless Autistic Spectrum weirdness.

My first significant relationship was a Twighlight Zone / Black Mirror version of My Big Fat Greek Wedding. She was the kind of woman who thought Eraserhead was a good date movie.

Thank God we never married. She was dating me to prove to herself and her family she wasn't queer. Maybe I knew something was off, so I never introduced her to my parents.

We met when I was living in the computer labs. Literally. All my stuff in my car and a gym locker. Her pickup line was "You need to eat." She was right too. I did need to eat. She was attracted to starving waifs, mostly women, but sometimes men like me.

We broke up when I jumped out of her moving car in Berkeley, me a possible accessory to a her felony assault of a bad man in the rescue of the girlfriend she eventually married, a woman who had tried to kill herself in my bathtub, the first naked woman I'd ever touched.

I did escape with my virginity intact. My girlfriend had grown up in an Orthodox household and was "saving" herself for marriage, but her fucking other women somehow didn't count towards that. No penis, no foul.

In middle school and high school the bullies called me "queerbait" and would sometimes beat me bloody. In high school I never dated, never went to a dance or prom. I quit high school for college as gracefully as I could, at the tender age of sixteen, which is one of the better decisions I've made in my life.

But the following decade got weird. It took me nine years to graduate from college. Ran around naked a bit, have photos and drawings of me young and hot, but nobody ever touched me beyond holding hands, a couple of kisses, and footsies under the table, not until I met my wife.

or let him take them off because she allow him to go down on her. Then she's surpised/offended that he expects reciprocation? This girl is dumb as a bag of rocks.

she probably expected more of a date and something more from a wealthy celeb than any average guy can offer. but she realized it was just a hook up for him . the reason she stuck around is because she had already built up expectations and talked to friends about it so it was more of wishing something more would happen . but he just put on a seinfeld until she was ready for more.

she finally just realized she wasn't going to get more and left.