General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDon't know who is winning the messaging war but I find the suggestion here we're losing disturbing.
Carry on...
Prue
(139 posts)My struggle with the Democrats is their inability to frame their messages. Most of the time they are on the right side of the argument but they seem to fall short in getting their message out to everyday Americans.
I attribute their failure to their focus on the policy and not the con.
For example - the message they are using is about DACA. They are trying to appeal to people's sympathies. That's the wrong message because people equate that to political correctness. Their message should be about America's honor in keeping our word and how this Administration and this Republican party has damaged that honor not only domestically but internationally (I mentioned this on another seed).
That message may garner more support because it's about America's reputation and trustworthiness not about the politically correct thing to do.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Are you not a Democrat?
Prue
(139 posts)I'm a registered Independent. I lean left on some issues and right on others. When I said I "struggle with the Democrats" my meaning was that I become frustrated with their inability to learn from past mistakes on how to stand up to the Republicans. It was meant as constructive criticism not a derogatory statement against democrats in general.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)So, you've come here to DU to tell us what we should do, then?
Well, all I can say is:
Bye, Felicia!
Prue
(139 posts)No, my intent was not to lecture but to engage others intellectually on how we can overcome the mess that has moved into the White House.
I'm sorry if my post came off otherwise but I can certainly take a hint that the site is not looking for thoughtful contribution.
My apologies if I've insulted you.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)from Democrats. This is Democratic Underground, not Independent Lecture Underground.
Prue
(139 posts)Your attitude will only get Trump a second term. No one is lecturing here but you. I won't engage you going forward. You're a very depressing individual.
MineralMan
(146,329 posts)Bye, now.
rgbecker
(4,834 posts)If you don't agree with the guy's premise, say so, but why attack him personally for offering some constructive criticism? If you are supporting every registered Democrat, you are going to find yourself wrapped up in some serious inconsistencies.
Hekate
(90,793 posts)...at walking precincts for the Democratic Party. "Big Tent" is practically his middle name.
The newbie's premise is that s/he can sit outside the Dem tent as an "Independent" and "intellectually" tell us how to run our show, while contributing nothing (and I do not mean money) to make it work.
Personally, I find that irksome, this being a Democratic site and all, but MM said it first.
MFM008
(19,818 posts)For a "second" term.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)Democratic seat...consider Virginia...we will take the House I think in 18 and then I think Trump's war on the American people will end.
SWBTATTReg
(22,166 posts)considering all of the thousands and thousands of different comments and/or suggestions of DUers over the last several months have led you to jump to a conclusion, all in a short interval of time...wow.
There are thousands of threads going on in DU land over the last several months alone, and there are a lot of constructive discussions on many different topics and you knock DU for just basically one thing, and then make such a statement as you did??? Hmmmm...I agree w/ MM here.
And then, you get a little upset when you get flak when you find that other DUers don't agree w/ you 100% and say so. Too bad. Hang in there and expect to receive some flak sometimes...it's part of being a DUer and accepting criticism.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)I saw nothing wrong with her posts - just trying to engage in some discussion with like-minded liberals. However, she was met by several here who seem emboldened to attack - simply based on low-post count and the fact that she is a registered independent. Neither of those criteria put restrictions on a posters content per the TOS.
Just stating my gender for the record since I've been mistaken for a guy a couple times now on this thread. lol
DrDan
(20,411 posts)there is nothing in the Terms of Service that says you cannot offer ideas based on a low-post count or the fact that you are not a registered Dem. Some long-timers in this thread seem confused about that.
Stick around and engage - there are many here willing to have an adult conversation.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)That being said I can see how people here who feel under siege are sensitive.
My only litmus test is that opposition to Trump and his ethnonationalism be unrelenting.
pangaia
(24,324 posts)In fact, you do not know shit about Mineral Man.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Probably for the best all things considered.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)You post them with fairly regular frequency. I think your comments to this new poster were unkind. Despite your penchant for posting lectures, I have never seen you post as you did to this poster.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)and we really do not like seeing posted here the same dishonest "framing" that enemies of the Democratic Party, here and abroad, have been disseminating for years now.
All thoughtful and informed Democrats are very aware of how profoundly dishonest this reframing is, and how damaging. "Tell a lie often enough and people will believe it." We don't need it told here to be aware that our enemies are blanketing our nation with it.
What's so funny to me about this whole situation is that this site was recommended to me by a republican who thought I was too democratic. Now, if I'm understanding your comment, I'm being accused of being a republican because I made a suggestion on how the Democrats could improve their messaging so they could get the country behind them. I feel like an American without a home. hahahahaha shrug
What did you think you were signing up for when you joined a place called Democratic Underground, did you not read the mission statement? Your posts seem somewhat disingenuous to me.
I thought I was signing onto a site where individuals discussed democratic policies. I had heard about this site from others and was told that my views would probably be a good fit here.
But some of you guys seem very paranoid and to be frank - mean. Which seems to be the opposite of what I envisioned from a democrat's platform.
Best of luck attracting new members.
Me.
(35,454 posts)It was part of what gave us 45 instead of a Dem. And here on this site, after it was hacked on election night, we've been subjected to a lot of it so the suspicion you're experiencing is not mean, it's informed. You're being challenged because you came here and immediately began by telling us what the Dems are doing wrong.
Prue
(139 posts)It sucks that your site was hacked and you've been infiltrated by some with dishonorable intentions. I came here in good faith but I seriously need to think whether I want to stay. There's a difference between challenging someone's ideas and making them feel completely unwanted. In that regard the "messaging" is excellent. I'm a pretty easy going person but I'm not a push over and I believe in honesty and speaking my mind.
Me.
(35,454 posts)Granted. But would it not have been a better move to make yourself known to the community first rather than arrive as a stranger and immediately began to criticize.
Prue
(139 posts)I'm an adult who signed up to talk with other adults. This is too hard. I will politely bow out. This is one experience I will certainly not forget anytime soon. Being chased away from a discussion site because I came to actually have a discussion.
Cheers and good luck. Stay the course.
I'll give you the last word and then I'll sign off.
Me.
(35,454 posts)Is that you're criticizing Dem messaging but don't seem very good at it yourself.
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)We have many factions because we are incredibly diverse, a true big tent, but the commonality is also tremendous.
Here's a link to our platform. It's lengthy, but you can read only the table of contents can be inspired and reminded why you are a Democrat. From there you can open the links for further information on what we intend to accomplish for America. Then you can search the web for articles and discussions on topics of particular interest by people who believe in those messages. Enjoy. Nothing is a better antidote to right-wing lies than saying a big no to them and immersing yourself in the reality of what we are about.
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform
emulatorloo
(44,182 posts)bdamomma
(63,922 posts)read the policies here and what this site is about first before you sign out. We are very diverse group of people, with everything from criticisms to being very open with our comments. That's what makes everyone special and above all what makes us Democrats.
You are fine. It's the internet. Take it with a grain of salt.
This place flips out over insignificant perceived slights all the time.
You seem to have hit the lottery with your criticism of Dem messaging for some reason. Try not to take it personally and just move on from this thread is my advise.
This site has good and bad. Lots of great info surfaces here often way ahead of other places it can also be hypersensitive or worse outright looking for reasons to act righteous.
Nothing wrong with your original post in this thread. Try to keep in mind some of the folks here feel at war right now with the current admin and republican party. Some have been fighting that war for a long time . Lots of raw emotion running around here.
Sorry your post got jumped on it didn't deserve it IMHO. Let this thread go is again my advise.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)here to disrupt. There are all sorts of people posting here. Some are more welcoming than others. Check out the smaller forums also as gd can be a bit much.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)lean towards the moderate side...no issues with that. But those who are 'independent' and lean are almost always conservative.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Just an fyi.
PdxSean
(574 posts)Some see DU as cheerleader camp where we should cheer the team no matter what the players and coaching staff are doing. Rah-rah-rah!
A few, usually us newbies, come here with a focus group mentality, thinking its okay to make suggestions based on our perspectives as Democratic voters.
Some of us are even bold even bold enough to think we are PLAYERS on the team because we contribute our time and money to Democratic causes and candidates.
Sometimes, unfortunately, the canaries in the coal mine get stomped down and labeled concern trolls because they clearly know nothing about mining coal as evidenced by their low post counts. Remember when Nate Silver said Hillary could lose? He got much the same reaction, so youre in good company.
Try not to let it get you down. As others have said, this is just the internet. DU is great for group hugs when you need it, but we are as dysfunctional as any other family.
Aristus
(66,462 posts)This is the Democratic Underground, not the Independent Underground.
It's been my experience that people who rush to call themselves 'independent' support the Republicans, but don't like to get tagged with the party name that is synonymous with racism, bigotry, Rand-ian economic beliefs, backwardness, provincialism, misogyny, and general misanthropy.
We appreciate thoughtful contribution here. If you know anyone who could offer it, direct them to this site.
Prue
(139 posts)So I should lie and pretend that I'm 100% Democrat in order to have my contributions weighed fairly?
Sorry - but that's not in my nature. If the site only prefers 100% Democratic members I completely respect that and will move on.
I'm actually really glad I tried this site. It will help me going forward on choosing my words better so I don't offend others.
femmedem
(8,207 posts)and not offensive.
It's true that this site is about advancing Democratic candidates and issues. But I didn't see anything in your posts that violated that.
And I don't believe that Democrats do their candidates any favors when they lash out at people like you who are looking for a political home.
Sorry your experience here was so bad.
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)a lot of people here have very thin skins when it comes to their politics, and especially outsiders (newbies, "independents" and others) trying to tell them how to do things. Hell, many of them won't abide criticism from even their own. You should see the infighting that goes on here -- the entrenched camps within the party.
BECAUSE the owners very strongly do not want criticism of Democrats, the Democratic Party, etc. I think that's pretty well outlined in the stuff you signed to join, right?
BECAUSE it's the internet.
I am personally a bit more tolerant of your kind of "contribution" (air quotes because it's not seen as most others here as such, esp. from newbies), and I'm not against reframing, per se, but if you're talking Lakoff, I have a huge problem with that. I just can't grok it.
If you lean mostly Dem, if you wish the Dems to win big in Nov. so we can start to get things back on an even keel here, I suggest you stick around -- that is, if you survive your intro thread here, and IF you can manage to keep some of your sure to be less popular ideas to yourself. Or "frame" them better.
Prue
(139 posts)I appreciate the feedback. I do want the Democrats to win and believe that President Obama will be viewed as one of our greatest Presidents of our time. I don't think I'm a good fit here but I appreciate you outlining the Do's and Don'ts.
I've already sent a note to the administrator's asking them to delete my account. It's clear my presence here has upset some and that's not how I want to contribute.
Good luck
RandomAccess
(5,210 posts)a different day, a different time of day, you might have had a completely different experience. THOSE people don't "own" the site, after all. AND, you've gotten some good, decent feedback too. I suggest you think it over more.
Just in case.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)Critiquing the party to improve it is a good thing.
Give du another try, another thread, another forum.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I was only pointing out as I always do that people can't just criticize, they have to get involved. And you suggested a "better" way to message, but didn't want anyone to argue with that either. And both messages could be used.
youve had this reception. Unfortunately, there is a tendency here to bash people who question the party line. There are good things about DU, but tolerance of varied opinions isnt one of them.
emulatorloo
(44,182 posts)DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)Once We defeat Trump and the Deplorables we can litigate our differences civilly.
True Dough
(17,320 posts)Bickering among ourselves can wait. We can ferret out the disingenuous types in our ranks down the road. No need to greet every new face that doesn't introduce themselves in a supine manner by quickly hauling out the torches and pitchforks!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)If you truly support progressives, there isn't a reason to leave.
And you certainly don't need to ask an administrator to delete your account.
Why would you feel a need to announce that you are doing so if you think you have upset people enough already.
marble falls
(57,204 posts)If you're not a Democrat, this isn't the place for you. Easy!
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)but that seems unlikely.
George II
(67,782 posts)..of the site. Then if you click each of the rules you can see the rationale behind each one. That might give you a feel for the site.
I hope this helps.
PS - do NOT hit the "I believe the post breaks this rule" or you'll actually send an alert, which cannot be retracted.
Response to Prue (Reply #43)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)begin with what they consider is constructive criticism.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)His opinions matter no more than anyone else's. Personally I'd like to hear a lot more open minds like yours. Please continue to post, we need rigorous self examination a lot more than we need an echo chamber and self aggrandizement.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)Regardless of how one feels about the Dreamers a government should never renege on a promise. The Dreamers were promised if they came out of the shadows and registered they would be protected. Now that they are registered they are being told they might not be protected and the fact that they registered makes them easier to find.
Prue
(139 posts)I agree. These young people trusted this government to honor it's pledge to them. I'm stunned that anyone would think it's okay to do what this White House and republicans are attempting to do.
treestar
(82,383 posts)But when it comes down to it, we can't promise anything because the next election can change things.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)Rounding them up now after they voluntarily registered evokes images of cattle cars and detention camps.
treestar
(82,383 posts)has no problem with that.
PdxSean
(574 posts)He and other canaries in the coal mine, ironically like Prue here, were labeled concern trolls.
treestar
(82,383 posts)the swing states? We thought we had chances at getting AZ or GA.
The polls no longer serve as well. Hopefully we learned that at least.
IMO the Orange Disaster's election was a big fluke.
fallout87
(819 posts)Nope. nothing wrong with brainstorming here, even if that means opposing opinions.
(Before you get hot and bothered.....registered democrat here)
treestar
(82,383 posts)though to be useful, we ultimately have to get involved.
I don't see how criticizing the leaders alone is going to help, either. People have to participate. That's the only way it works. Criticizing those who have done something and are more involved just does not work.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)than we do is obvious. For some reason, many here seem to think that acknowledging our need to be better at messaging is disloyal to the Democratic party. It is exactly the opposite. We are right. Everyone should know it. So far they don't. We MUST change that.
peggysue2
(10,839 posts)Last edited Sun Jan 21, 2018, 04:17 PM - Edit history (1)
As Dems, we too frequently lose in the framing department. The GOP is furiously framing this as 'illegal immigration' taking precedence over American children's healthcare.
That would be funny if it weren't so tragic. The DACA kids should not be corralled under the 'illegal immigration' banner; they were brought here by their families, have only known one country--the US. As for the CHIP program? Republicans have been willing to trade sick kids for their own purposes from the start of this, a bargaining chip in human lives. Trump is now referring to the shutdown as a hostage situation.
Because, of course, he is.
Democrats are on the right side of this argument. The problem is the Republicans hold power not only in DC but on the airways. And they're getting a little help from their friends, as in foreign adversaries, who love churning things up, playing the right and the left.
Chuck Schumer was willing to concede a partial payment towards the Trumpster's odious Wall, something that would have had the Democratic base up in arms. But Trump refused to settle, the Art of the Steal. Truth is we need a reasonable immigration policy because immigration is essential for the country's growth and continued prosperity. Who has been sitting on this, refusing to bring anything to the floor? The Republicans.
The DACA crisis was initiated by Trump and the Keebler Elf. The GOP has known about the deadline but has refused to act. Over 80% of the population agrees that DACA kids should be protected. A country the size of ours should not be running on short-term budget deals.And who said the country was overdue for a 'good shutdown?' That would be the Trumpster in all his faux glory.
And that's why we're here. The only thing we can do is keep pumping the truth out. And maybe, come up with a mind-melding tagline.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)bdamomma
(63,922 posts)I enjoyed reading that, food for thought.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
to the newcomer and wish we had better answers to give than just "go away" and are you a mole for even asking such a question?
treestar
(82,383 posts)get used? Only if they participate and get out there. And learn enough to ponder if they are really right.
"Messaging" is for dumb Republicans, too. Democrats don't need as many sound bites. The mushy middle might, but who is to say either way of putting the Dreamer's issue before them is better and only one should be used?
Sympathy might be better - those using that obviously think so. We can't make promises as the next election can always change everything. That is not a truly honest way of putting it. We could also argue it is just the right thing to do, since we failed to enforce against their parents and them faster. That might resonate with others.
That post originally said using sympathy is entirely wrong and that the "promise" must be used and is much better. We are not required to agree merely because it is critical.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)I am talking about how it is said. Where it is said. How often and how consistently it is said.
We could argue anything you like, but right now whatever it is that we choose to argue is being drowned out by the arguments and shenanigans and consistent, relentless messaging of the other side. Argue whatever you want but the way we do it now, no one is hearing or reading it.
Messaging is not for dumb republicans. Democrats need messaging just as much as anybody else.
And no one said anything about you being required to agree merely because it is critical. That's a strawman, as I think you know.
hueymahl
(2,510 posts)And as much as I respect you, I think you and other defending you have been disrespectful.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)It is not constructive whatsoever.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)party preference and loyalties.
Well......this is kinda like a test. Cool - I generally do well on tests but I don't always ace them. So, to answer your question truthfully, I have always voted Democratic except for one time back in 2003 when I voted for Robert Ehrlich for governor and I ended up regretting it. None of this really matters because I've already requested my account be deactivated. I'm just hanging out until it happens and reading the comments trying to wrap my head around where I went wrong. hahahahaha
So do you think this will hold true in the future?
marble falls
(57,204 posts)the lite and understand in a two party system there is no viable way to be truly independent when the GOP is out to screw everybody else. And then you may want to participate in DemocraticUnderground as a Democrat.
treestar
(82,383 posts)If it's such a good idea? Have you contacted the leaders to tell them about this? Have you done anything to become a leader and be the change you seek? If your way is better, surely you would rise to the top, right? You know how to "message" better than they do.
Prue
(139 posts)I'm not permitted to lobby but I do what I can under the ethics rules. I'm not suggesting that I'm right. I'm simply putting out an idea for discussion.
I'm starting to realize that maybe this site is not for open dialogue or solutions. I think perhaps I made an error in joining.
treestar
(82,383 posts)You have to get in touch with them to make a difference. Or be one of them. I don't know why you are not "permitted" to lobby? Everyone is. If we all agreed with you they should do the messaging another way, then we'd have to do something about it. Just going over it here is not going to do much.
And you have not acknowledged that the media does not allow Democrats nearly as much chance to do "Messaging."
Prue
(139 posts)Maybe I could reach out and offer my 2cents. I thought I was getting engaged when I joined this site but as you point out maybe that's not enough. Maybe you could offer some suggestions that you've found worthy during your outreach efforts.
I'm not sure how to address the media comment. Maybe if one of the democratic politicians started a "grab em by the pussy" campaign it may bring media attention. (smile)
Generic Other
(28,979 posts)I appreciate your honesty. Don't give up. We need to right the ship of state, and it will take concerted effort from like minded people -- not just those in lockstep agreement about everything.
The stakes are too high.
Prue
(139 posts)I appreciate your feedback. I must fall within the naive category because I've never experienced a site attack new members. hahahahaha
Yes, this is an important time in our country's history. Our democracy is slowly being chipped away and we should all be worried. There will be consequences that will have a rippling affect for generations after this President leaves the White House.
treestar
(82,383 posts)expect automatic agreement only. A discussion involves challenging the ideas presented.
The majority favor the DACA, so how is it the Democrats' messaging is wrong on it?
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)Several longtime posters jumped straight on her and basically said she had no right to question the party and probably didn't belong here. It was exactly the same intolerant and abrasive attitude that drives away too many new posters.
femmedem
(8,207 posts)I'm sorry she left but I don't blame her.
I've been here since the Bush years, and I found the pile-on so unwarranted and disheartening that I'm not feeling too great about this online community either.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I disagree with this idea that just criticizing what others do is going to help - people have to get involved if they want to have an effect. Further, with 80% support, it is silly to claim the messaging on DACA is what has failed.
femmedem
(8,207 posts)And I doubt that Prue would have objected to politely phrased disagreement. But your earlier choice of words was taunting and sarcastic: "If your way is better, surely you would rise to the top, right? You know how to "message" better than they do."
Other posters said, Bye Felicia, accused her of concern trolling, of lecturing, of not belonging here, and laughed at her when she said she has, with one exception she regrets, always voted for Democrats.
And your point about getting involved matters--but no one should be jumped on for posting on a message board. As it happens, I serve on my Democratic Town Committee and am active in getting Democrats elected. But for others, spending time on a political message board may be a way of becoming more engaged with politics and may lead to more concrete activism down the road.
The sad thing is, her initial post about messaging was a good one, I thought, but that got lost in the bashing. I live in a liberal, overwhelmingly Democratic city, and we support the Dreamers. But in other more conservative, less diverse areas, a message about America keeping its word would resonate.
Lastly, if Democrats don't act more welcoming than this to left-leaning unaffiliated voters, we are going to alienate a huge chunk of voters that we need.
treestar
(82,383 posts)when they claim the messaging is wrong. They must purport to know better.
With 80% support, the messaging on DACA need not be changed (even a percentage of actual Donald voters support DACA if it is that high).
True Dough
(17,320 posts)You are so right, femmedem. We could use more people who think like you around this forum. Some here are far too intent to sniff out perceived threats and run them off. It's a shame. Give newcomers some time and see if suspicions bear themselves out. It's not like they're going to undermine/brainwash other DUers in 25 or fewer posts anyway.
femmedem
(8,207 posts)And I love your username!
Voltaire2
(13,155 posts)She was subjected to the tag team newbie pile-on "welcome to du" experience.
Sort of disgusting, in my opinion.
Sorry Prue.
Fla Dem
(23,741 posts)I applaud those who came to her defense. We can criticize, push back and debate without calling into question one's motivation. If they have ulterior motives, that will come out soon enough. I would think we are strong enough to resist being pulled to the dark side.
We should welcome Indies. Wouldn't it be great if we could convince them the Democratic Party is a great place to be and they join our battles rather than taking fire hoses to them.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Who attacked you, Prue?
tonedevil
(3,022 posts)rises to the top on its own merits with no need for politics or framing I sincerely hope someone holds your hand every time you cross the street.
treestar
(82,383 posts)That is not what I said.
I am merely tired of would-be framers who think they are better at it than the people at the top. They need to get involved rather than just criticize.
dottie66
(59 posts)Dems need better messaging.
Hav
(5,969 posts)The Repubs seem to be better in framing the debate. Fox News and Twitter bots carrying their talking points help in that regard. How else can you sell a completely unnecessary tax "reform" that so obviously favours the 1% while bankrupting the country even more? They are the masters at getting people to vote against their own interests regarding health and economical issues.
Concerning DACA, I wouldn't call it the wrong message to make it an issue about human beings, unless you mean it in the sense of it being not as effective. Either way, in my opinion, in order to succeed, the Democrats need it to be more than something abstract, like the abbreviation, or what the Repubs are doing in making it an abstract issue about crime and security. That's why they emphasize the human factor.
delisen
(6,044 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)It's been a success by that metric.
delisen
(6,044 posts)thbobby
(1,474 posts)Dreamers are what is important here. Not messaging or propaganda. By bringing this into the national spotlight, Democrats are helping to make sure that trump will not be able to treat dreamers as he wants.
zentrum
(9,865 posts)
..want the Dems to message better. George Lakoff tries to teach them all the time to get better at this.
BTWconsidering how this thread unfolds belowI feel I need to say I am a lifelong Democrat and have often walked door to door for them.
"This American Life" did an excellent segment today on the Democratic Party trying to find a way to better explain their policies, especially to Independents and undecideds.
Highly recommended segment.
It's vital that we get this right for 2018 and the discussion needs to be held open so we can do it.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)want to see DACA kids sent back to their deaths in many cases...and any who might even consider what I think it a republicanesque approach that you describe would never vote for us.
rockfordfile
(8,704 posts)"political correctness" That's something that fascists years ago would say.
questionseverything
(9,658 posts)because they think the gov't will collect the names then at a later time, use the list to round them up
this is exactly what has happened to the daca peops
if we framed the message more along your lines we might gain the support of a few of the 2nd amend peops....splintering our opposition is exactly what we need
don't let that poster run you off or turn you off from supporting democrats
aikoaiko
(34,183 posts)say Democrats are perfect.
There are some on this board who do not want even the slightest bit of criticism to occur on DU -- especially from someone new. Its easy to make new folks feel unwanted and scare them off.
I say welcome and I hope your intentions are good.
The only real requirement for the board is that you support Democrats in elections.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And a lot of it is unwarranted.
The "framing" thing is especially annoying, since that poll shows a large majority of Americans favor the DACA relief. So that was one frame that was not wrong.
And the media! How can the Democrats be at fault when the media promotes the Republicans? If Democrats "framed" everything properly, it would not make it onto air.
johnp3907
(3,732 posts)Shouldn't that be "we" and "our?"
Prue
(139 posts)My comments were directed toward the leaders and the Politicians not voters. I see where my words have created this air of suspicion but there is nothing I can do about it at this point and any attempt to try and clarify has been met with additional skepticism and anger.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)In what way?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)the party leaders are criticized here all the time. No reason a new member can't.
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)DrDan
(20,411 posts)ehrnst
(32,640 posts)and poor messaging on the part of Democrats, not examples of other people saying what they think is poor leadership or messaging.
Is that clearer?
treestar
(82,383 posts)Most Americans support the DACA.
And probably they have their reasons. They do polls and focus groups. Even if they read DU, they would not necessarily agree that they are poor at messaging and that their frames are wrong.
As it is, most Americans support the Democrats. I had read that there were more votes for Democrats overall in the House elections, and that even so, the House went to the Republicans. It is our system that favors conservatives. The red states having more weight to their votes - that is why the Orange Disaster sits in the OO.
OhioBlue
(5,126 posts)I agree that the Dems need to do a much better job of framing the issues and getting their message out effectively to everyday Americans.
Prue
(139 posts)Im Prue - Oh and Im a girl (clarifying because some here thought I was a guy).
I work in an Office whose mission is focused on womens health. We have several directives but Im only going to discuss one of them since a component of it speaks to this discussion. Outreach, Education and Communication. In other words, messaging. Recently, a colleague and I were contacted by a prominent advocacy group here in DC. They asked if we could meet and speak with another group to share our messaging model. They wanted us to give them some insight that would help them with their messaging and legislative language. It was a great meeting and they were very pleased with our input FYI - we are NOT for hire. As I tried, and failed, to explain yesterday, imo, the current messaging is not resonating with those outside of core democrat supporters and will NOT get through the current legislative bodies
for obvious reasons.
For example equity, I would guess that most if not all members on this board would agree that equality is good. But some factions in our country hear it as a battle cry. To them, it does not mean fair and right but rather someone is taking something away from them and giving it to someone else. Further, their perception is that its being given to someone undeserving. How can this misconception be changed?
.it cant, at least not in the near future. So what I was suggesting is we should stop trying to change the perception because the republicans have been too successful changing what it means to their voters.
My intent yesterday was to engage in a good discussion on how to broaden the democrats reach with unhappy republican and trump supporters. I was in my think tank/brainstorming mode so I apologize that I didn't ease into the community.
Finally, the welcoming committee here sucks. I appreciate those who stepped up to try and sooth the situation but its a proven fact that most people remember the bad that happens to them more often than the good. What happened here yesterday is not how to advance the cause, embrace new members, and stimulate creativity.
With that, Im outta here but I wish you good luck fighting the fight. Stay the course its important. I'm told my work will be reopening tomorrow. Cheers!
Voltaire2
(13,155 posts)And I am sorry this happened to you. You seem like a good person. You are owed apologies.
femmedem
(8,207 posts)I doubt you'll ever read this, but I want you to know I posted this as its own thread so that DU can--I hope--reflect on your words and practice some introspection.
Skittles
(153,193 posts)maybe racist people do
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)It is a major theme in huge disinformation campaigns being waged by conservative forces here and abroad.
DemocratSinceBirth
(99,711 posts)We'll know soon enough. I just don't like the pessimism.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)parlor. Large percentages of Americans think the republicans are the party of fiscal responsibility and family values, despite generations of them blowing up the economy and screwing over families. People believe the republicans are the ones who take care of the troops, despite the republicans ALWAYS voting to reduce protections and pay for veterans and active service people.
Right now, many are crowing about how well the stock market is doing under the republican shithole. How many have YOU see who mention the FACT that the stock market did BETTER during Obama's first year? I've seen one story mention that.
I don't like the pessimism either, but I'm one of the ones who feel it. We are right. Our policies are the ones people want, despite what they are convinced by the republicans.
Yes, right now we are winning elections and I believe we will stomp republicans in 2018. But until we take stock of what they are doing with messaging and find ways to effectively counteract it, we should expect that they will lie and cheat and take credit for what WE do until we figure it out.
Crunchy Frog
(26,630 posts)These kinds of knee-jerk reactions, and accusations in response to even the mildest of constructive criticisms are the reason why I've almost stopped posting here. I guess that's good news to a majority of the current DU membership.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)something that the bots are trying to push.
As for the others, I do sort of see their point. Right now, we just have to put all our differences aside and get Dems back into power. I get nervous when I see things I suspect might dilute that effort. They might think this is one of those things. I happen to think this is the opposite of that. If we face our failure in this area and figure out how to "do a Putin" and get messages into people's minds, there will be nothing that can stop us.
The thing is that many who are speaking against this are people I know to be sincere and dedicated Democrats. I suspect there is some communication disconnect on this topic. Which is very ironic.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)campaigns here and abroad.
That is obviously true.
What campaigns are we waging to counteract that? For goodness sakes, 30% of the country thought Hillary was running a pedo ring out of a pizza parlor.
We MUST acknowledge that we need to be better at messaging and then take the steps necessary to make that happen.
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)The fact is, Democrats are winning, and have won the majority of special elections held since the 2016 elections, and won big in Virginia.
Cable news is but a sliver of the information that is out there... it is a carefully constructed narrative that, by design, pits one side against the other to do nothing more than gin up ratings and viewers, not to tell people what is really going on.
I suggest going elsewhere for proof of who is winning or losing.
I am suspicious of the motives behind people who come here to DU to tell us we are losing. That is bullshit, plain and simple.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)from saying we are losing. I really don't think anyone is saying we are losing.
Yes, we are winning elections now. That is because our past failures to counteract the Russian/republican messaging has landed us with the worst president in American history, and SOME people are finally terrified. That has nothing to do with our messaging.
The republicans are better at messaging than we are. For example, the majority of the country still sees them as the party of fiscal responsibility and family values despite at least 20 years of acting against fiscal responsibility and family values. Based on the evidence, people should be in no doubt that Democrats are the ones watching out for their wallets and their families. And yet that is not happening. And that is only one example. WE MUST CHANGE THAT.
There is nothing "suspicious" about my motives when I say that. It is something we need to master or we will have more shithole republicans sullying up the Congress and the White House.
Orrex
(63,224 posts)For some asinine reason, people still see Republicans as the "pro-life" party, despite their aggressive campaign to kill low income children and children of immigrants.
They also imagine that Republicans are pro-military, despite their utter failure to support the troops once their service has ended.
Republicans are absolutely better at messaging, in no small measure because they control a sizable chunk of the mediasphere.
As was noted recently, Republicans are great at campaigning and terrible at governing.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)I'm just waiting for the deaths from things like sepsis and pneumonia to start now that CHIP is gone.
It is very true that they have an advantage because of their ownership of the media. But Putin managed to get into Americans' minds without owning the media. We can take a page from his book. Where is our organized social media push? Why do more Democratic drivers not put pro Democrat or anti Republican bumper stickers on their cars? Why, when Hillary had so many more voters in my neighborhood, did I see Trump(R) lawn signs and not Hillary ones.
We really all need to take part, and we all need to do our part, but at the same time, we need someone at a party level to organize us.
Orrex
(63,224 posts)As a general rule, I'd guess that Republicans are more comfortable destroying others' property than Democrats are, so a pro-Hillary bumper sticker might readily result in a scratch running the length of the vehicle, while a pro-Trump sticker likely wouldn't.
That's not definitive, of course, but fear of reprisal is exactly why I didn't post any Clinton signs on my lawn here in my Red county.
Good point about Putin getting into people's heads, too.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)worth a keying. I understand that everyone would not feel the same.
I live in an apartment so I can't do the lawn sign so I wear political buttons on my coat and have often been confronted by angry republicans for it. I usually refuse to engage and wish them a nice day. My statement is my statement and when they try to pick a fight, all that does is tell me they have seen my statement.
LeftInTX
(25,551 posts)My granddaughter was born on Obamacare. When I wrote Cruz about my granddaughter, he sent back a stupid message about how Obamacare is killing jobs.
So, Ted Cruz hates babies.
My sign has a photo of my startled granddaughter looking at pictures of Ted saying, "Jesus, I Hate the Poor", "Jesus, I Hate the Sick"...along with thunderbolts of lightening and "The Curse of Ted".
Ted Cruz Hates Babies!!!!!!!!!!!!!
treestar
(82,383 posts)and the fake news sites and the dishonesty of the Republicans and the dishonesty and stupidity of people who fall for it?
I don't think anyone believes Hillary ran the pedo ring. They keep saying it, hoping to get real dumb voters already biased to believe it. Probably a very few of them saying it actually believe it.
The Democrats would have to go to similar lows, wouldn't they? And then it would be "oh we are better than that."
Squinch
(51,004 posts)And we have two choices: we can either ignore it and continue to let them frame all the narratives, so that the average voter continues to believe they are the fiscally responsible, family values party for example, or we can learn how to message well ourselves so we can override some of the conservative owned media and get out the message that we are the ones in the right.
And no, there is no reason we would have to go to similar lows. The lows are their message, not their methods. We want to copy their methods, definitely not the tenor of their message. Their methods are a disciplined, constant and ubiquitous repetition. We could certainly do that and get some eyes and ears on actual facts rather than the crap they spew.
And you're wrong about no one believing that about Hillary. I personally am aware of a group of young, uninformed voters who stayed home because they hated the republican shithole, but they also didn't want to vote for a "lady pedophile." Who knows how many others are out there like them?
treestar
(82,383 posts)and yet we still win a lot of elections. And why do we never learn? (Or our leaders never learn - I don't see that you can have an effect on "messaging" without somehow getting involved).
You know a whole group of people who believed that?
How could that have been prevented? What did Hillary or others fail to do that "let" the Republicans get away with that one - the most egregious one they did, too.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)asshole in the white house that suggests we might need to do anything differently. What we should do when we see him squatting in our nation's capital and when we watch Russian bots take over the air waves is throw up our hands and change nothing.
treestar
(82,383 posts)saying Hillary was running a pedo ring out of a pizza shop? What failures of the Dems made so many people believe it.
chowder66
(9,080 posts)Lawrence O'Donnell on twitter said....
"Democrats will always fail at messaging in a complex legislative environment because they never speak with one voice & always answer questions about the complexities instead of repeating a message which is why they never figure out what their message should be."
This is exactly what I've thought over and over again just never found the right "messaging" to convey it. LOL. I would also probably state it a little more positively than O'Donnell did but I get his point.
This is why I don't necessarily knock Democrats for messaging issues. Governing is complex and there are so many scenarios we probably can't even imagine.
It does need to get boiled down though... especially in a soundbite/twitter world.
It seems we need a think tank messaging forum, unless there is one here that I'm unaware of.
Phoenix61
(17,019 posts)Wendy's "Where's the beef?" or AT&T's "Reach out and touch someone" or "Trix are for kids silly rabbit"? Those were all pure marketing genius. Simple tag lines that resonate with people are very effective. It seems we have relied on the logic of our position to gain support. That would work great if people acted on their thoughts but they don't, they act on their feelings. I believe we could do better at reaching people on that level. Showing someone being deported and their children crying makes people feel bad no matter what is said. Showing a happy family together with the tag line" We keep families together" makes people feel good. Same message but one leaves you with a warm fuzzy.
treestar
(82,383 posts)I hate giving up on this as people's feelings are not dependable.
Phoenix61
(17,019 posts)If we acted logically we would exercise every day, use credit cards only for emergencies and reservations, eat healthy, get enough sleep and on and on. But for the most part we don't. People carry credit card debt because they felt they just had to have something. They put off exercising because they don' feel like it.
Kentonio
(4,377 posts)They might watch the news, but they don't know details of party platforms, or closely follow political developments unless the media happen to blow them up into a huge story. I love the idea of people using their critical thinking abilities more, but I think we'd be waiting an awfully long time for that to actually happen when it comes to politics.
Caliman73
(11,744 posts)That is the problem. Feelings are a necessary part of human evolution and survival. We feel scared so we run, or we fight. We feel sad which gathers people around to support and create community. We feel happy and we seek others out. All of those things are inspired by feelings.
As I said however, emotional responses are primitive responses that must be tempered as you suggested, but thought and contemplation. It is good to get people excited. It motivates them to action, but that action must be directed by planning. Therein lies the rub. Planning, thinking, contemplation...they are hard, and boring. Would you rather watch a play or look over a spreadsheet to plan a budget?
We need a way to do both. Reach people on an emotional level, and get them thinking and acting in a logical way.
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)
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Me.
(35,454 posts)"They are losing on all fronts, except with the old white people, whose desires have been getting more selfish, more hateful, and more wicked as they get older"
Response to DemocratSinceBirth (Original post)
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mcar
(42,372 posts)and call it "constructive criticism."
Hortensis
(58,785 posts)Jersey Devil
(9,874 posts)Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)right it seems for some here.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)party of family values? Do you believe that republicans are the party that takes care of military personnel and their families?
Because most of the country does.
All of those things are patently untrue. For at least a generation now, Democrats have cleaned up the economy every time the republicans blew it up. Democrats consistently pass legislation to help children, the aged, veterans, servicepeople and their families, while republicans repeatedly try to shoot them down.
And yet most of the country still sees republicans as the party of fiscal conservativism and family values.
That is a failure of messaging. There are at least a thousand other examples.
You keep saying, in post after post, that it's just people saying Democrats never do anything right. You seem to have completely missed the fact that most of us are saying that Democrats are doing everything right with one exception: getting out the message that we are doing the right things.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)we don't have talk radio or the Kremlin...our guys do the best they can. And I am damn sick of the criticism. They talk plenty but the coverage is simply not there. They need support of the donors (that were called corporate and chased away) and all of us to get the message out. Many here complain incessantly about what the Democratic leaders are doing blah blah and they are always found wanting...how about seeing what you can do instead of waiting for other to do it for you. I am tired of the 'constructive criticsm' Before the shutdown I was informed by multiple people who engage in this sort of thing that the Democrats would cave and they would BELIEVE it when they saw it (which of course wasn't likely)...blah blah.Take to facebook or twitter or you tube... I remember when Our revolution got dreamers to attack Nancy Pelosi...I was earnestly informed that the Democrats couldn't be 'trusted' so who could blame the dreamers...completely sick of it...Be the change you seek. If you think the message isn't getting out then help get it out.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)me because I am stating an undeniable fact.
I guess we should just let ourselves be overrun AGAIN by Russian bots in future elections rather than try to see how it happened and how we can fight it next time. Because you are tired of people who thought Democrats would cave on the shutdown.
Really. Ridiculous.
And PS. I don't need you to tell me to get out there and work for Dems. I'm doing plenty, thanks. That's how I have seen how few people out there actually know what it is we do for them.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)general. It is what I believe....not about you-...but in general. All this the Dems must get the message out etc...why not take to twitter or other social media and help get the message out instead of sitting on one's hands and complaining that the Democratic leadership isn't doing enough to 'get the message out'? Again not you in particular but a general comment. The fact is we need to unite and forgo 'constructive' criticism until we take back the House and hopefully the Senate. Both will be a heavy lift. The piling on by the right and some on the left against the Democratic Party is self defeating. I saw comments here that were echoed on right wing twitter posts. (No, not saying you,I have read your posts for quite a while...don't always agree but that is no your MO) WE Need to defend our elected and our party from the right...not agree with them! It is like if we see 'both' sides why then we are better people or something. It is not true. Time to recognize the threat and the evil coming from the GOP. Consider that we won by over 10 points in Virginia...and still didn't get the legislature because of the gerrymander. It will be a tough fight in 18 and in 20. Let's unite and fight the GOP not our elected or each other.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 23, 2018, 08:32 AM - Edit history (1)
officials or each other. This has nothing to do with seeing both sides. This has everything to do with defending our elected officials and our party against the right.
I get it, though, that you are not going to see this.
Not going to keep arguing it.
treestar
(82,383 posts)They need the money - the Republicans tend to have more money. Here we see how people who claim they supported with money say they are going to stop over one issue.
Demsrule86
(68,667 posts)dawg day
(7,947 posts)And that it makes it worthwhile then to accept the risk that you'll get blamed, as long as you're holding out for something important like DACA.
So that's a good thing-- as long as they hold out till they get a DACA fix. If they quit on that now, it will all have been for nothing. But I'm heartened that the politicians do agree that the 700K American kids are definitely worth some risk of blame.
In contrast, the GOP is holding out in sullen fear that the Idiot King might tweet at them.
Kablooie
(18,641 posts)With talk radio and Fox News they dominate national messaging.
Democrats have nothing like it they can compete with.
I blame this as one of the main reasons we are in this mess.
One side having an unrestrained propaganda megaphone makes the playing field totally tilted.
Squinch
(51,004 posts)media. So what are we going to do to get around that? Where is our organized social media presence? Where are our regular staged Congressional events to bring attention to issues? Why, when they go on the Sunday talk shows, do you see republicans on every station pounding on their pet issue of the day in a very, very disciplined way, while we respond with inconsistent and sometimes incoherent replies?
Yes, they own the media. But there is plenty we can do. And the big advantage is that we have facts on our side. We have truth on our side. We are right. It's time we learned how to get that message out there.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Our leaders are more thoughtful and therefore more likely to think and speak their minds than just repeat talking points consistently. You're convinced that most Americans are more susceptible to talking point than thought of any kind. Though I would think if our leaders thought it would work, they could do that. They just don't think that is the way to go, apparently. So how does one convince them to do things the way the Republicans do? It has to be getting closer to them, getting involved somehow. They are not going to read DU and agree with the concept they don't message well enough, especially with no alternatives offered.
L. Coyote
(51,129 posts)Andy Borowitz
17 mins ago on Fb
Majority of Americans Plan to Watch Old Obama Videos During State of Union Address
samnsara
(17,635 posts)...with a budget!! Anyone who supports this cause is ok with the hold out. We have to STAND STRONG AGAINST TRUMPISM. for our country!!! We are holding out against facism, lack of leadership, general trump ickiness, daca, for AMERICA. This is a strike.
Motley13
(3,867 posts)so we need good responses
Turbineguy
(37,365 posts)and not cave.
drowefnp
(28 posts)Let us not forget what happened in 2106, Given PR blame game going back and forth, be aware we could have trolls and Russian bots stirring the pot of divisions among democrats so we fight among or selves and take our eyes off of what 45 has done to cause this shutdown mess.
Mc Mike
(9,115 posts)randr
(12,414 posts)Until twitter and facebook get a handle on the problem the Russians will out spend and out post us all.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)beachbum bob
(10,437 posts)is the party tting killed in the polls. The democrats offered "some wall building funds" but were completely turned down by trump...so the game must go on
Kilgore
(1,733 posts)A group of us meet Saturday mornings for coffee. All are present and former union mill workers who voted for Trump. Almost all claim to be registered Democrats.
There were two consensus. First, the Democrats caused the shutdown and second was it doesn't matter.
This group is pleased with Trump because since the election, the local mill added a second shift, increased overtime, and a formerly closed production facility has been reopened.
This is what we need to address in 2020. It's what matters to these voters.