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uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:09 PM Jan 2018

QUESTION: Isn't the ATTEMPT to obstruct a federal investigation a crime in and of itself?

Even if the obstruction doesn't happen and even if there's no underlying crime to have occurred isn't the attempt at obstructing an investigation a crime?

Thx in advance

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QUESTION: Isn't the ATTEMPT to obstruct a federal investigation a crime in and of itself? (Original Post) uponit7771 Jan 2018 OP
The problem is that it's a hard case to prove. N/T lapucelle Jan 2018 #1
Actually, easy to prove, at least in Trump's case. dixiegrrrrl Jan 2018 #7
You would need to prove that the purpose of the firing was to obstruct justice. lapucelle Jan 2018 #11
That would be easy if the other explanations turn out to be pretext or bunk right? uponit7771 Jan 2018 #13
You would need to prove that the other explanations are bunk. lapucelle Jan 2018 #17
Green fees would be pretty bunk reason to fire a special prosecutor if its true at all. Sounds like uponit7771 Jan 2018 #18
You would need evidence of an attempt to obstruct justice. lapucelle Jan 2018 #20
The act of asking for the WH lawyer to fire Mueller ... IS ... the evidence. That Red Don failed... uponit7771 Jan 2018 #21
Legal strategies are best forwarded to Mueller's team. N/T lapucelle Jan 2018 #22
If it is, Mueller has known about it for a few months now. dewsgirl Jan 2018 #2
Yes, because that's basically what obstruction of justice is. The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2018 #3
come to think of it, if you *successfully* obstructed justice, that means you got away with it. unblock Jan 2018 #4
That is what he did talking to Comey, that's the original crime, way back last spring. dixiegrrrrl Jan 2018 #5
45 won't be "charged" with obstruction. Mueller will present the evidence to congress AJT Jan 2018 #6
NY, NY... it may be up to you C_U_L8R Jan 2018 #8
Exactly. bearsfootball516 Jan 2018 #12
+1, even if there's enough votes for impeachment there wont be enough votes for removal uponit7771 Jan 2018 #14
It's certainly a case for impeachment. dawg Jan 2018 #9
Yes. It doesnt have to be successful. davekriss Jan 2018 #10
Attempt yes Sanity Claws Jan 2018 #15
Isn't telling the white house counsel the ... ACTION ... of an attempt in and of itself? TIA uponit7771 Jan 2018 #16
I don't see the difference between attempted obstruction and obstruction. Iggo Jan 2018 #19

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
7. Actually, easy to prove, at least in Trump's case.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:28 PM
Jan 2018

He and Sessions and Hope Hicks and Miller were all involved in the letter that fired Comey, and all of those people were told by Trump WHY he wanted to fire Comey.
this is after he fired Sally Yates for not laying off the Russians, and why he wanted to fire others in the FBI.

Happily, Trump can't keep his damn mouth shut, and he can't stop lying.

lapucelle

(18,275 posts)
11. You would need to prove that the purpose of the firing was to obstruct justice.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:37 PM
Jan 2018

That is not easy to prove. There are alternative explanations that could be presented for the administration's motives for wanting to end the Russia probe.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
18. Green fees would be pretty bunk reason to fire a special prosecutor if its true at all. Sounds like
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 02:42 PM
Jan 2018

... a burden shifting framework would be involved in this action.

lapucelle

(18,275 posts)
20. You would need evidence of an attempt to obstruct justice.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 06:17 PM
Jan 2018

Skepticism that there was an attempt to fire someone someone for a petty reason does nothing to prove an attempt to obstruct justice.

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
21. The act of asking for the WH lawyer to fire Mueller ... IS ... the evidence. That Red Don failed...
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 08:04 PM
Jan 2018

... doesn't make the attempt legal.

There are multiple witness's to the act of asking for Mueller to be fired by Red Don IINM so I'm not skeptical of the attempt.

The petty reasons can be found to be pre-textual looking at the whole picture and since he's already claimed he's fired an investigator in part because of the "whole Russier thing" that's a safe bet.

A dispute over green fees!?

Please

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,735 posts)
3. Yes, because that's basically what obstruction of justice is.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:12 PM
Jan 2018

Firing Comey in the first place was obstruction of justice because it was intended to interfere with the Russia investigation; the fact that the investigation has actually continued doesn't change anything.

unblock

(52,253 posts)
4. come to think of it, if you *successfully* obstructed justice, that means you got away with it.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:18 PM
Jan 2018

so if you get nailed for obstructing justice, i kinda means you had to have merely attempted it -- and failed....


dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
5. That is what he did talking to Comey, that's the original crime, way back last spring.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:22 PM
Jan 2018

He tried to get Comey to not investigate collusion. Comey refused, that is STILL obstruction. The attempt is obstruction.

And then all the other times he tried to interfere..he's got dozens of obstruction charges, each time, each one, is a felony.

Lying to an investigator, even a small lie, is obstruction. Lying before Congress, lying before a Grand Jury...all obstruction.

AJT

(5,240 posts)
6. 45 won't be "charged" with obstruction. Mueller will present the evidence to congress
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:24 PM
Jan 2018

and the there won't be enough votes for impeachment in the house. My fear is that unless he resigns we will be stuck with him.

bearsfootball516

(6,377 posts)
12. Exactly.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:44 PM
Jan 2018

And even if the House were to somehow impeach, there’s no chance in hell the Senate would go along.

dawg

(10,624 posts)
9. It's certainly a case for impeachment.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 12:31 PM
Jan 2018

Do any of us doubt that a Republican Congress would begin impeachment hearings against President Hillary Clinton under similar circumstances?

uponit7771

(90,347 posts)
16. Isn't telling the white house counsel the ... ACTION ... of an attempt in and of itself? TIA
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 01:49 PM
Jan 2018

The counsel failing to do what is told is the failure but doesn't erase the action of telling the counsel what to do when in authority to do so like Trump was.

Iggo

(47,558 posts)
19. I don't see the difference between attempted obstruction and obstruction.
Fri Jan 26, 2018, 03:00 PM
Jan 2018

There might be, and probably is, a difference under the law.

But to me, obstruction and attempted obstruction are logically the same thing. (Successfully getting in the way of the investigation and unsuccessfully getting in the way of the investigation are both getting in the way of the investigation, if you see what I mean.)

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