General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums'Anti-Vegetarianism Is Sexism in Disguise'
Vegetarian is not synonymous with holier-than-thou; in my experience, the opposite is true: Its meat-eaters who are more likely to do the condemning. And then to accuse vegetarians of condemning them. Its classic deflection, textbook self-victimizing, a transparent disguise for selfishness. Its what many of Trumps supporters do to Trumps detractors. Instead of owning that their politics are self-serving, they attack those who suggest that their politics are self-serving. And consider the feminized insults they sling: if we disagree with Donald Trumps tax plan, with his unwillingness to fight climate change, with his refusal to denounce neo-Nazis, were special snowflakes, were triggered, were irrational libs. They dont say, I want my taxes lowered, even at the expense of those less fortunate.
In America, according to a study cited by the Huffington Post, 59 percent of vegetarians and 79 percent of vegans are women. No wonder so many seem so concerned about what were eating or not eatingpeople have always enjoyed chiming in about what women should do with their bodies. And with Trumps ascent, those voices have gained steam: In todays America, you can brag about grabbing an unsuspecting womans vagina and become president. The most anti-abortion-rights politician in the country can rise to the vice-presidency. Woody Allen can voice sympathy for Harvey Weinstein, Bill Cosby can do town halls to teach young men how to shield themselves from rape accusations, and Matt Damon can tell us were overreacting about men patting our butts at work. Harmless as it seems in comparison to rape apology, anti-vegetarianism is also sexism in disguise. Not even a convincing disguise. Its sexism in a man bun.
"Our culture feminizes compassion. It also masculinizes meat-eating. So were easy targets."
There are many tools to choose from if you want to threaten those who are different from you, whose ways you might not understandwhether theyre women, members of the LGBT community, immigrants, people of color, or people who simply dont eat the way you do. You can tease them. You can call them cunts. You can work to undermine their rights. You can shame them into silence. You can disguise your aggression as concern, the way this article questions the safety of vegetarian pregnancy, or the way this article ties vegetarianism to mental illness; the latter articles subtext is this: Vegetarians are crazy.
Or women are.
To deny that veg-shaming is vag-shaming, to deny that meat-splaining is man-splaining, reeks of the its not that shes a woman, its that shes careless with her emails argument. Case in point: Under the Huffington Post article about the male/female vegetarian ratio, a male commenter wrote, Because women are emotionally irrational. Another wrote, So glad I was born a man. Enjoy your beans and salads, ladies. And a third man chimed in with the most well-crafted and honest response: Vegetarians scare me.
Whats scary, really, is the idea in the ether that compassion is effeminate and thereby un-American. Socialist. Stupid. Snow flake-y. That destroying the environment is mans God-given right. That black lives should remain inferior to white lives. That refugees are terrorists. That immigrants are criminals. That sick people are scourges. That women have victim complexes and their concern for their safety and rights are invalid. That steak is patriotic.
http://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a14539150/anti-vegetarianism-sexism/
muriel_volestrangler
(101,378 posts)Origin
According to a study by Canadian researchers published in November 2009, soy products contain the second highest relative phytoestrogen content after nuts and oilseeds.[2] In April 2010, an article by Dr. Mark Messina of the School of Public Health in Loma Lina, California revealed that soy consumption has no effect on the levels and quality of male sperm.[1] The earliest archived use of the term soyboy as a pejorative on 4chan was submitted to a thread on the /tv/ (television & film) board on April 18th, 2017 (shown below).[11]
...
On October 3rd, the @CernovichNews[8] Twitter feed posted a photograph of a group of late night television hosts captioned with the Urban Dictionary definition of soy boy (shown below, left). On October 16th, Redditor _PM_Me_Boobs_plz submitted the Pajama Boy photograph of Organizing for Action employee Ethan Krupp in a post submitted to /r/The_Donald (shown below, right).[7]
...
On October 26th, conservative writer Will Sommer posted an article titled How soy boy became the far rights favorite insult to Medium.[3] The following day, Mic[6] published an op-ed by writer Chris Caesar titled How soy boy became the alt-rights new favorite insult. Also on October 27th, The Daily Dot[9] published an article titled Soy boys is the far-rights newest favorite insult. On October 30th, Redditor EmArKay_11 submitted a photograph of a man wearing a long knitted cardigan titled The return of the soyboy to /r/malefashion,[10] where it received upwards of 800 points (96% upvoted) and 50 comments within four days (shown below).
http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/soy-boy
Vegans and vegetarians often eat more soy, so this gets tied in.
CousinIT
(9,259 posts)I suspect those who want to feminize veganism or vegetarianism while considering meat-eating 'manly' use soy as a crutch to prop up their dietary sexism. Soy is not veganism or vegetarianism. It shouldn't be used as a crutch against it.
handmade34
(22,758 posts)when it comes to defending one's food eating preferences... I often find meat eaters aggressive, VERY defensive and use projection when describing us vegetarians... even here on DU
food is very emotional and personal... it seems
CousinIT
(9,259 posts)mucifer
(23,572 posts)tell you"
That usually confuses them. Then I explain that meat eaters constantly talk about eating meat. It's everywhere in our lives. It's also in our face on billboards and commercials. Us vegans can't get away from people talking about their amazing steaks and chickens. Especially when they know they are talking to a vegan one on one who cares about the lives of animals they just can't stop. People who are more opened minded will tell me, "wow I never thought of it like that". Others still don't get it or find my point of view annoying. I know I have to fit into this world and usually keep my mouth shut and don't argue with the meat eaters.
All of that said, after going vegetarian in 1982 and vegan in 2013 and doing this mostly in Chicago which Carl Sandburg deemed "hog butcher to the world" I have to say in the past several years more and more people are vegan and more and more people are open minded and more understanding of us being vegan, at least here in Chicago from what I have seen. People now often tell me they are cutting back on eating meat and I tell them that's great and every little bit helps. Veganism now is also a lot more diverse. In 1982 it was mostly middle class or upper class white females who were vegetarian and there weren't too many vegans. Now I go to a veg fest and there are a lot of people of color and different classes, too. Weight lifters and football players are doing it and often finding good results and destroying the stereotype of the skinny weakling vegan.
Maybe it's a trend that will come and go. But, for now I choose to be optimistic.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)anti-vegan attitude I often encounter here. Suggest that veganism/vegetarianism is a more environmentally sound diet than an omnivorous diet and all hell breaks loose.
pnwmom
(108,997 posts)The vegan in my own family is my brother.
CousinIT
(9,259 posts)writerJT
(190 posts)Theres always someone looking to be a victim.
Somewhat related: this great exchange with an extremely friendly, open-minded, tolerant vegan...
CousinIT
(9,259 posts)d_r
(6,907 posts)but I like tofu a lot, usually order some form of it in thai or asian restaurants and like cooking with it at home. I guess dishes like mapa tofu (which is best to me when it has ground pork in it) or chili where tofu plays the role of the bean instead of the role of the meat, would really offend this person.
See, this is the problem. Vegans are a minority and so they have to navigate the majority culture all the time in restaurants, stores, family meals, etc. So that becomes a part of identity - yeah, food is very personal - and it becomes almost tribal or something. Majority doesn't really see it as a part of their identity, just the way it is. So there is some room for misunderstanding there.
writerJT
(190 posts)The reasons could be many.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Doesn't feel like an actual exchange between people.
What doesnt feel like an actual exchange?
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Never heard of anyone saying that - feels made up (or joke/parody).
How are you certain its not a gag?
writerJT
(190 posts)And watched her deal with blowback on Facebook.
The gate-keeping vegan may have been trolling but guess which of the two got banned from the vegan group...
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Thanks for sharing your added insights. I wonder if the other person was trolling or what.
writerJT
(190 posts)But as far as I know, the vegan (could be a fake/trolling) is still a member of the group.
The responses from vegans is often more interesting and informative about them than the original exchange.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Especially in lieu of meat - even if just for one meal.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)writerJT
(190 posts)Tipperary
(6,930 posts)But I am no longer surprised how gullible people are. Especially in regard to Facebook.
writerJT
(190 posts)Dont like something? See something that doesnt support a belief/position? Call it fake. Good job.
Kaleva
(36,354 posts)She's been reinstated into the group after an uproar.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)and was spread via Reddit and the Daily Mail. Its transprently fake, hits all the stereotypical right wing canards of what a liberal is, and the fact that this poster buys into so wholeheartedly is depressing but oh so predictable.
Confirmation bias always wins.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)but youre oblivious
Tell yourself whatever you need to. ¯_(ツ _/¯
Ms. Toad
(34,102 posts)I know tons of vegans and vegetarians - none would make a comment like that (other than perhaps as a parody).
Codeine
(25,586 posts)writerJT
(190 posts)Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Tofu is common in East Asian cuisine. Tofu in the same dish as pork or fish or whatever is commonplace The 'vegan' in that exchange has appropriated tofu from the cultures that have eaten it for a long time. If that is real, that person is off their rocker.
writerJT
(190 posts)On other forums and nearly 100% of the people who dont believe it are vegetarians or vegans. I always answer the questions about whether its real but no longer debate/argue it. Confirmation bias, and all that.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)since you're keeping track.
I'm an opportunivore. LOL. Eating a roast beef sandwich at the moment.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)But believe what you want.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)I hope that text exchange is not for real. Appropriating? Oh my goodness.
writerJT
(190 posts)Oneironaut
(5,525 posts)It seems "off," like it's not a real conversation. It's more like a script playing out. A lot of these fake "ridiculous message" images are the same way.
IluvPitties
(3,181 posts)I don't know why someone would discriminate against a vegan or a vegetarian. I don't like to be judged about my eating habits, so I don't judge either.
Zoonart
(11,879 posts)A long time. For me, it has been 40 years and my family has always had a problem with it, as they have with my liberalism. They seem to think that my life choices are a judgement on them. Go figure.
It is always an issue when one chooses to not conform.
Blue_true
(31,261 posts)I have enough issues keeping my diet right for me. I eat mostly chicken, a small amount of pork and fish. I prefer all meat and vegetables roasted.
Cha
(297,733 posts)anyone else eats, either.
Bon Appetite!
TreasonousBastard
(43,049 posts)There were weekly articles (nothing online back then) about how difficult it was to plan a dinner party...
It starts with Joel and Judy are kosher and if no kosher meat is there must have tasty veggies. If kosher meat is there, must have no dairy in the sauces.
Then there can be no additives or anything from a jar or can for Sylvia.
And Bill will not eat any vegetable other than potatoes. Dawn will not eat potatoes, nor will she eat red meat.
Everyone has some medical condition that precludes something...
Even salads were a problem.
Tipperary
(6,930 posts)First world problems for sure.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)What is a host or hostess to do?
lastlib
(23,309 posts)*People Eating Tasty Animals
Having raised cattle, I have no qualms about regarding them as steaks wrapped in shoe leather. Pigs are smarter, but they're still bacon wrapped in a football. We're doing 'em a favor eating 'em.
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)I also love beef, pork/bacon, chicken, lamb, and fish!
MrsMatt
(1,660 posts)but find the People Eating Tasty Animals joke to be lame. Not to mention offensive to those who whose values include not eating meat.
jmowreader
(50,566 posts)The name "pigskin" came because the inventors of football used hog bladders for balls. Footballs made today have polyurethane bladders encased in cowhide leather.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)I've had different experiences.
One set of vegetarian friends is fine. They do their thing, I do mine, and we get along fine. We when get together for a meal, we accommodate each other when we can.
But I had another "friend" who wa self-righteous about it. Constantly expressing disgust. Constantly making comments about my leather jacket, shoes, or the seats in my car. The dude was a straight up pain in the ass.
For me, humans are omnivores, and that includes eating meat. We are part of nature, and part of nature include animals consuming other animals. Circle of life.. blah, blah. But if someone chooses something different, no skin off my nose, so long as they let me be.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)People who have any compassion for animals but who also continue to be meat-eaters ought to spend a day at a factory farm.
Codeine
(25,586 posts)Its wrong to eat a horse, even more wrong to eat a dog, but a pig - arguably more intelligent than either of those - is (as a poster in this thread states) bacon wrapped in a football.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)It's very odd to me how people can feel sympathy to some animals but not others.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)It makes about as much sense as saying you should spend time in South America witnessing all the Amazon rain forest devastation that's happening due to soy farming because obviously you have no compassion for the countless indigenous species that are being wiped off the planet.
Eat whatever you want, whenever you want, but if you want to express self righteousness for your decision, then all you are really doing is inviting others to point that out.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And continue to eat meat - perhaps not aware of the poor treatment of animals involved in that process.
Major Nikon
(36,827 posts)But the suggestion that someone who eats meat is an asshole for doing so, just doesn't have much merit and the more people do this the more people are going to be anti-veg.
There's also no shortage of vegans that don't realize their choices for fulfilling their own biological omnivore needs for high quality sources of protein most certainly can and does have negative ramifications for other species, specifically native ones vs non-native which arguably has an even higher ethical cost.
The goal should be to live as minimally invasive as is practical, and this doesn't mean there's only one right way to do that.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)And I hope that I didn't seem to be implying that with my post.
I was responding more to the disconnect that sometimes seems to exist between people when they feel such empathy towards animals and animal cruelty in certain circumstances (and involving certain animals) and do not seem to extend those feelings to other animals being treated with cruelty via the factory farm industrial complex.
Everyone should do what they think is right, of course, but the more informed one can be the better (including knowing the information you shared about soy farming and its impact on the environment).
Kaleva
(36,354 posts)I live trap them.
I eat meat but this year I am hoping to transition to more of a bug diet to satisfy my protein needs. Meal worms and red worms supplemented by sprouts and some fish.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Kaleva
(36,354 posts)That appears to be better then the empty five gallon plastic with a pop can smeared with peanut butter on a metal coat hanger that I use.
Most people put water in the bucket to drown the mice. I leave it empty but the mouse can't crawl out and I take it way out into the woods to release it or them.
oberliner
(58,724 posts)Happy to help!
linuxman
(2,337 posts)"Its meat-eaters who are more likely to do the condemning. And then to accuse vegetarians of condemning them"
And to illustrate how it's never vegetarians doing the attacking, the author wrote an entire article doing jut that.
stopbush
(24,396 posts)GoneOffShore
(17,341 posts)mitch96
(13,926 posts)I mostly eat a whole food plant based diet for my health.. Lots of heart disease in my family and I don't want to push my luck. From what I have read people who eat less meat have less disease.. I'm pushing 70 and I take no meds. BP is around 120/80 and my last check of my blood sugar was 90. I eat fresh cold water fish manly about once a month. If you invite me over for dinner and you have red meat as a main course I'll have some but mainly eat the veg.. It's a treat actually but not a steady diet for me.
I remember when I was in my early '20's my girlfriends mother took diethylstilbestrol during her last pregnancy. It was found that diethylstilbestrol (DES) caused a high incidence of cervical cancer in both the mother and daughter. They both had to get some sort of test to see if they did not have cancer every year. I then heard on NPR that the live stock industry was giving DES to the cattle in the feed lots to finish off the growth of the cows...
Hummm give DES to humans, humans get cancer.. DES given to cows in the feed lots?...
Ahhhh no thank you. That's when I cut red meat out of my diet... I don't care what others do it's just not for me.. YMMV.
m
meadowlander
(4,406 posts)which got mainstreamed.
"Tofu is for pussies" evolved around the same time and for similar reasons.
The same guys who love kung fu movies (starring Buddhist vegetarians) would never touch tofu with a ten foot pole for fear of looking gay or effeminate in front of their friends.
tritsofme
(17,403 posts)Which made hating it, incredibly easy! I am still grateful to Steve Dahl for ending that terrible scourge once and for all!
meadowlander
(4,406 posts)but you never hear "Death before hip hop".
Why not?
Because it was mainstream socially acceptable to hate gay people and, by extension, their cultural products in the 1980s but it's not mainstream socially acceptable to hate black people and their cultural products in 2018.
And it's still completely mainstream socially acceptable to show contempt for "girly" things like tofu which is the point of the thread.
jalan48
(13,888 posts)do everything it can to slam and shame those who choose to not eat meat. People would become vegetarians overnight if they were shown the barbaric practices that are employed to bring us steaks (not cows) and pork (not pigs). At least hunter's know what's involved in getting meat from an animal-the meat doesn't appear all rosy looking and shrink wrapped like it does at our corner grocery store.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)Pretty much everyone knows its pretty bad, but only a small percentage become vegetarians because of it.
jalan48
(13,888 posts)would seriously damage the meat industry. It would be a much larger percentage if the info was available. It was part of the reason I quit.
nini
(16,672 posts)It's like looking at the clouds when we 'see' things in those formations. If you look hard enough to can see anything you want in them.
This was quite a stretch. I'm trying to decide if it's satire or not.
Squinch
(51,022 posts)LuvLoogie
(7,036 posts)Restaurants can run their businesses with the recipes they choose. If a vegetarian/vegan gets invited to dinner and accepts without informing the host they are vegetarian/vegan, then they get what they get and they don't get upset. Of course dinner party planning these days takes that into account, but you can't expect the cook at a Texas barbecue to reserve an un-meat-tainted grill for your imitation meat burger. And if the rice is made with chicken broth, oh well.
If you have food allergies (different subject) then it is your responsibility to do your due diligence. It's like entering traffic. You can't expect that people are going to always follow the rules or be courteous. Being annoyed with and poking fun at vegetarians and vegans is not like sexism. It isn't a conservative/liberal thing. It's a free choice thing.
And if I am invited to a vegan's house for dinner, then I should not expect a roast.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)But when I eat meat, the result is about 24 hours with multiple trips to bow to the Porcelain God. If I end up going to my family's SUper Bowl party, I'm taking a veggie burger with me. I suppose I could choose to get violently ill, but most people wouldn't do that.
Truthfully I miss meat. I miss being able to eat holiday dinners (I informed my family at xmas and still everything had meat in it and wound up eating a slice of bread). I miss the convenience of fast food. Last week after the Women's March, I went to 3 restaurants before finding something on the menu I could eat. I miss being able to eat just anywhere. I've read about meatless versions of meaty favorites (ie cauliflower wings), but I haven't made them yet. I'd love it if that were on a restaurant menu.
(Not a vegan as I eat dairy).
LuvLoogie
(7,036 posts)Is it a bulk digestive thing or do the fats and proteins mess you up? I had some cauliflower tacos the other day, thick cut florets, nicely seasoned and roasted.
I am fortunate to live in Chicago. There are so many choices for vegetarian. Lots of Catholics, too. So we're coming up on the Lenten menus across the city.
Maybe if you find some super recipes you can hook into, you can host more. Maybe even the superbowl party and wow your guests with the alternatives. I have a great recipe for vegetarian ground nut stew that I will post as soon as I can find it.
Be safe, and be well.
crazycatlady
(4,492 posts)Nitrates meaning meats like cold cuts, sausage, pepperoni, salami, hot dogs, etc. People love Italian subs, but just looking at that makes me think about how sick I would get.
But the second to last meat that messed me up was turkey at Thanksgiving fresh off the bird. I know that turkey was not pumped with nitrates. Two weeks later I had chicken parm at an Italian restaurant and that was the last meat I ate. It's been about 6 weeks now and I'm still at the experimental stage as to what meat alternatives I like (and trying every store's veggie burgers).
SB party is a family tradition at my uncle's house. I'm about to relocate temporarily and it will be close to my destination.
Those cauliflower tacos sound good. When I host events, I always do a DIY taco bar (accommodates most dietary restrictions) and I've found black bean tacos are just as satisfying as meat tacos. I've also discovered a good vegetarian chili recipe (vegan if you don't use cheese). The I'm broke diet of beans and rice works for me too as long as I add a lot of veggies.
I never thought about the Lent angle-- good call.
TDale313
(7,820 posts)On a related note, the idiot fan who did an edit of The Last Jedi cutting out all the women/feminist subplots had Chewie eat the Porg instead of choosing not to.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Truly. If it's any consolation I find the Paleo nutters just as ridiculous. Am I phallus shaming?
This is stupid
Kirk Lover
(3,608 posts)Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)TheFrenchRazor
(2,116 posts)constantly trying to prove that there is absolutely nothing "female" about them, because of course female is bad. the only thing they're proving is that they are very weak and insecure.
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)without getting political with each other about it? Is everything drenched in political/social antagonism these days?
GulfCoast66
(11,949 posts)Not Vegetarian Underground
This bullshit has nothing to do with the Democratic Party or making the nation fit to live in.
I hunt and fish as does my wife. You want to eat a plant based diet...knock your heart out. I support you all the way.
But I also eat a plant based diet since photosynthesis is the basis for most mammalian life. I eat animals that concentrate the nutrients we need to thrive.
Almost all research suggests that it was only when we began to utilize cooked animal protein that we separated ourselves from the other high intellect Primates.
I will stick with Science. We are evolved to eat Animal protein.
PoindexterOglethorpe
(25,902 posts)I've never noticed meat eaters going out of their way to inform all around them that they are carnivores. Vegetarians and vegans? You know that within the first five minutes.
And I seem to know as many men as women who are vegetarian/vegan.
And most of my experience with the proselytizing vegan/vegetarians is that they really do try to lay a guilt trip on people who eat meat.
While everyone is free to eat as they wish, I do like to point out that we evolved as omnivores. We are designed to eat a huge variety of foods that include meat. We are NOT our paleolithic ancestors, and we became fully human as we started eating cooked food.