we can have lots of progressive things and also maintain bodily integrity for half of our citizens.

I should read the article, but it looks like a thinly veiled attempt to yet again divide us.

read the author's name (David Brooks) and said 'nah'! He is not worth reading.

But I do appreciate the rewrite of the title!

enough said.

I don't need to worry about his deep concerns for progressive causes.

A woman's right to self determination is not abrogated by the right to choose.

He isn’t worth reading this time either. He didn’t bother to acknowledge that late-term abortions are most often the result of health issues, such as severe abnormalities in the fetus or the health of the mother is seriously jeopardized (like when a woman needs immediate cancer treatment or she has diabetic or heart issues). Nor does he bother acknowledging that Republicans have portrayed late-term abortion as never medically needed except in cases where flighty women just changed their minds and decided that a baby would be inconvenient to their busy lifestyle.

the whole debate is one of bodily integrity, not "babies". We've been chasing after the language of this for far too long.

And, just as a matter of "knowing and understanding your enemy," your are even more right. We see it as a woman's right to control her own body, which of course I believe is the right way to see it. THEY see it as "babies."

What I am trying to say is if we can put ourselves in' their' position for a second - ie, it is 'killing babies'
-, then maybe we can see how to change the conversation, or at least alter it enough to have the results needed.

"Why do they see it the way they do?" What does it FEEL like to see it that way. Like walking in their shoes for a few steps Then Ah HA! Maybe we can attack the issue... this way, or that way..

Otherwise it remains a 'woman's body' vs 'killing babies.'

Does that make sense?

.....................
(Jeeze I sure hope nobody misunderstands what I am saying. No alerts, please!

and because of the way the debate is normally framed, I do think a lot about what the other side is seeing and why they feel the way they do. "Babies" creates a feeling, and people make decisions based on feelings.

But I think that "bodily integrity" can create feelings too. Like "if you had a compatible kidney to someone who would die without one, do you think you should be _forced_ to give that kidney up to them? Because that is a direct analogy to pregnancy, and especially to not taking care for the mother's life and health"

It's time we started loudly creating those feelings, as well. "Choice" works for a lot of people. But I think even more people could identify with bodily integrity.

There are two people I know who are for the most part very liberal. But there are a couple of 'issues' where they are not, and this is one of them, although they are not what one might call 'hardliners.' They can see both sides and have come down on the side of no abortion...

So one time, in a social situation with them and 2-3 others (the others as liberal as I am) I joined in a conversation that came up about abortion.
For my own education, I tried taking a 'middle ground,' if that is the right phrase. I was able to argue both sides - not really as cut and dried sides, but as differing views of the same thing. I could balance the issue.

I think I have always been able to understand the idea of 'killing a baby' that is the other side's view. And, I must say, there is a truth to it for sure, at least enough of a truth that I can understand how many view abortion form only that view. Doesn't mean I agree with it as the primary argument, but I can understand where it comes from.
The discussion WAS actually useful for all, and for me in seeing what we are up against with those who are not as 'moderate?" as these two people, but who are really hard line. Of course there were none of those hard line types there.

Anyway.. know your 'enemy.'
Maybe better. "know the opposition."



PS - We need to frame those knee jerk hardliners as anti-abortion and NOT pro-life. They are about as pro-life as.... eh, don't ask,

And never EVER let them refer to us as pro-abortion.

i canceled. same with Newsweek. it's a mixed bag. but i won't be renewing newsweek either.